Curse

Bankai · Mar 24, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

The current skill description:
15e - 2c - 30r
Enchantment spell. For x seconds, all party members have a 50% chance to block.

My suggestion:
15e - 2c - 30r
Enchantment spell. For x seconds, all party members have a 25% chance to block.

Why?

Aegis is ruining the game.

Since the buff of GolE, Aegis has become severely overpowered. If you pack GolE and Aegis on 2 monks, or an e/mo, you halve the damage output of all melee chars on the enemy team, which is a lot.

STOP. I know what you're going to say.

Bring enchant removal.

Now, think of what you just said.

That's Buildwars. Not Guildwars.

Think back to the old tournaments. A guild with skills was possible to win games even with a crappy build. Necro raiders used a freaking meleemancer. However, lately it's been moving towards Buildwars. You need something, otherwise you can't win. You need this, otherwise you'll lose.

Aegis is part of this formula. Since so many guilds run this skill, a lot of freedom in build making is lost. Because everybody needs to pack enchant removal, you need at least 1 mesmer, and mesmers aren't cool.

With my suggestion, it's still a perfectly usable skill, but you can also still actually hit a target under its enchantment.

And no, I'm not mainly a warrior player. I'm always defensive caster or monk.

HolyHawk · Mar 24, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

25%, probably not. I would cope with a 3 sec casting aegis. Aegis has always been somewhat balanced to me. It's one option against melee heavy teams, and they are not the majority right now. You speak of Buildwars, I am sorry to tell you, that's the game's current state. It used to be guild wars back in the prophecies' days. With a few exceptions, most of the guilds will support themselves on their build, if you know what I mean.

Bankai · Mar 24, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

25%, probably not. I would cope with a 3 sec casting aegis. Aegis has always been somewhat balanced to me. It's one option against melee heavy teams, and they are not the majority right now. You speak of Buildwars, I am sorry to tell you, that's the game's current state. It used to be guild wars back in the prophecies' days. With a few exceptions, most of the guilds will support themselves on their build, if you know what I mean.

Because of aegis.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 24, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

If you are having problems with Aegis you need to stop ignoring the metagame and bring counters to the damn skill, its really not that hard. Who's fault is it if you don't bring interupts or knockdowns, enchant removal, anti-enchantment hexes or spirits? That's right, your own. Aegis is good because it stops c space pressure from overwhelming you, but is easily countered by a competent team.

GoLe is the real problem here, not Aegis.

I really hope Izzy doesn't nerf the skill because of QQing like this.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 24, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Aegis on a monk that can make it last 13 seconds is very good, but I strongly suspect Glyph of Lesser Energy is the real problem here.

But Aegis could use a slight nerf too. Not as radical as 25% though. More like 25...45%

TheOneMephisto · Mar 24, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

If you are having problems with Aegis you need to stop ignoring the metagame and bring counters to the damn skill, its really not that hard. Who's fault is it if you don't bring interupts or knockdowns, enchant removal, anti-enchantment hexes or spirits? That's right, your own. Aegis is good because it stops c space pressure from overwhelming you, but is easily countered by a competent team.

GoLe is the real problem here, not Aegis.

I really hope Izzy doesn't nerf the skill because of QQing like this.

Unfortunately, the person using Aegis can simply run back to cast it since it's radar range, making interrupts and KDs a lot harder to use. And the fact is that no enchant removal besides Mirror of disenchantment (is that the name) is going to be enough. Aegis stops warriors from being able to pressure period. Pressuring by warriors is done by quickly switching targets to be able to keep ahead of prots, there's no possible enchant removal that can remove enchants fast enough to stay with the warriors trying to switch targets.

And the other two options force you to run hexes (what anti-enchant hexes are there besides corrupt enchant?) or to run NR/Tranq, which makes more build wars.

GOLE is a problem, but non-elite energy management is needed, and if nothing else gets buffed (cough inspiration), I'd rather see GoLE stay where it is, at least offensive casters get emanagement also.

Aegis is just the off-button to pressure when combined with GoLE though. Warrior pressure is fairly impossible to maintain, spot enchant removals aren't enough, and the Aegis caster can simply run way back to avoid KDs and interrupts.

EDIT: I didn't say my suggestion. I would prefer Aegis to be a very light fairly cheap prot for the team, ala watch yourself, or be an okay yet conditional prot, ala stand your ground.

Something like:
10e 1c 30 recharge
For 1-10 seconds, all allies have a 5-15% chance to block. (0-12)

or

15e 2c 30 recharge
For 1-13 seconds, all allies have a 15-25% chance to block while moving/standing still.

Bankai · Mar 24, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Aegis on a monk that can make it last 13 seconds is very good, but I strongly suspect Glyph of Lesser Energy is the real problem here.

Yup. Though Aegis has always been quite strong, it has become imbalanced because of glyph of lesser. The best glyph fix is either 0...1...2 or 1...2 spells, based on energy storage. But that's another point.

Quote:

But Aegis could use a slight nerf too. Not as radical as 25% though. More like 25...45%

Scaling on attribute is quite a good idea.

I also like the 10e 1c light protection.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 24, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

I agree with some of the post, It's GoLE that is strong , not aegis.
Think about it this way, using those skills separate Aegis is still a good skill, but you have to be carefull when you use it.

GoLE is still very powerfull cause no matter what 2 skills you use its still "free"

But the other problem i have with them together is how do you balance it so they dont just become useless, i think Aegis is fine so i wont even try to change that, GoLE however i would, but here is the big problem, how do you change it and not make it a useless skill?

Lets see, changing it to make skills cost 15 energy less doesn't change anything,Changing it to only effect one skill makes it useless,So putting it into ES and with that progression would hurt, but wait one second.If you did put it in ES means its still as useful for Eles but for other classes its not that much of a choice anymore.So who knows, even tho I dont want to see that happens , i think we will be seeing it go this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Something like:
10e 1c 30 recharge
For 1-10 seconds, all allies have a 5-15% chance to block. (0-12)

or

15e 2c 30 recharge
For 1-13 seconds, all allies have a 15-25% chance to block while moving/standing still.

HMM WTF?
Then why even take aegis?You just made it useless in both examples.

Greedy Gus · Mar 24, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Stuff like aegis, ward against melee, etc. is necessary to keep in check heavy physical builds in my opinion. Especially with the 3 additional physical classes added in expansions, most importantly paragons who can replace some build's midline roles and do silly amounts of damage.

I wouldn't mind a small tweak to the numbers, but 25% block rate makes the skill worthless. It's only really strong ATM when casts are covered by shields up and hard to interrupt.

I also think the problem is more with GoLE, and would rather see that nerfed and drain enchant made playable again. It would make the game more interesting.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 24, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

HMM WTF?
Then why even take aegis?You just made it useless in both examples.

Don't take the numbers literally. The concept is what I wanted to get at, either a fairly cheap party-prot that relieves some pressure but isn't overly powerful, or a fairly powerful party-prot that is conditional so that it isn't too good.

JR · Mar 24, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

We regularly play a 5 physical build, against teams with Aegis and SoD. It's fairly easy to play around with interrupts - even when you have no enchant removal. If you don't have interrupts in your build... then expect to be given problems by skills like Aegis.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 25, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

The proposed nerfs to aegis would make it suck 100%, no one would bring it. Aegis is fine the way it is. The thing that needs to be nerfed is Glyph of Lesser Energy, a non-elite energy management spell, that requires no attribute point investment to potentialy net 25 E.

In the past Aegis was usualy not used on defensive monks but rather on other casters such as eles, or necros, where the high energy cost was not as risky, these chars also had to invest enough attributes to reach 9 prot. With Glyph of Lesser Energy aegis is free, and the characters who are using aegis have 14 in prot anyways so no additional attribute investment is needed.

The ideal solution to the Aegis problem is to make Glyph of Lesser Energy scale with Energy Storage.

Blame the Monks · Mar 25, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

I think aegis is balanced fine as is. There are so many ways to deal with it no nerf is required. In fact, when Izzy nerfs gole aegis chains will disappear again I predict. And you can bet your bottom dollar gole will be nerfed because izzy hates eman and wants casters to be exclusively limited to gimmick spike.

The only issue I have with aegis-like passive defense buffs is you can stack too much of it (wards, aegis chain, shouts, spirits, etc). In general, passive defense should be less effective than active defense. Right now, several passive defensive skills are still too effective imo, especially for mid/low skilled players. I'd like to see more "flaws," counters, or restrictions to prevent mass stacking of passive defense, but this is a rant for another thread.

JR · Mar 25, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

And you can bet your bottom dollar gole will be nerfed because izzy hates eman and wants casters to be exclusively limited to gimmick spike.

I actually discussed this with Izzy when I met him at the NCSoft party, he says he really likes how GoLE has opened up more options for Monks in particular. I don't think it is going to change any time soon.

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 25, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

GoLE is not a problem,it's the fact that people haven't excepted that they all can do the same thing and use GoLE in the same fashion yet.

Let me explain...

GoLE makes every type of character with /E as a secondary to be able to cast spells. W/Es could,theoretically, be caster capable with the GoLE. Every caster benefits from GoLE being unlinked, as well as the people who use more "unorthodox" builds. High spell costs are either negated or not as much of an issue thanks to the buff of GoLE.

Nerfing it back to its original form is rather pointless, and making it ES exclusive would make the point of all glyphs to be a point of ignorance. Glyphs are not spells,but are more like talismans to be used to augment the user's power.

[skill=card]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Sacrifice[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Elemental Power[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Concentration[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Essence[/skill]. All glyphs save,[skill=card]Glyph of Restoration[/skill],are unlinked, and this glyph is linked due to the fact that eles in general have no personal healing abilities of their own except for [skill=card]Aura of Restoration[/skill].

That being displayed and said, if you link GoLE to ES, then you might as well link them all, and further deter non eles from using ele primary skills. All ele energy management should be for eles only then,right? The GoLE is the only real e-management skill that is unlinked to the caster's line that it was created for. It doesn't make Aegis get used twice, it just makes energy management for a monk more realistic(since monks have very little e-management in its own profession line). Think about that when you guys scream for a nerf of something.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 25, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

If you were to nerf GoLE I'd suggest making it 10 energy saved per spell and/or up cast time, not to link it to eles.

moriz · Mar 25, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

GoLE and aegis is fine by themselves as a combo. however, they become horribly broken when combined with anti-melee hexes. combined with price of failure, spirit of failure, and reckless haste, all melee chars on the opposing team will kill themselves and give endless amount of energy for the hexers for more hexes every time they go hit something. yes, it's not difficult to work around the GoLE aegis combo by itself, but the way it interacts with other easily spammed hexes makes it extremely powerful.

Skye Marin · Mar 25, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

While the arguments on the OP aren't particularly convincing to me, I agree that Aegis has become considerably more powerful than it once was due to the evade/block consolidation. While 25% would be too much, something like a scaling 5..35% would be more suitable.

GolE really doesn't need a nerf. The power of Aegis comes from evade and block being the same thing, not the extra spell cast from it. Just like the power of ZB comes from the amount of free energy it can give over the course of a game.

Consider buffing other skills. Mirror is disenchantment could use an energy cost reduction from 25 to 15. At 10 second recharge, it would be a pretty interesting overall enchant removal. Warrior's Cunning can get a recharge cut in half, and a duration boost from 10 seconds maxed to 15. 10 energy is a lot for a Warrior.

In the meantime, try using Gryphon's Sweep, Leviathan's Sweep, or even Irresistable Blow.

JR · Mar 25, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Ask your self this when you claim that Aegis is the problem, and not Glyph: Why did Aegis only become such a big issue after the Glyph buff.

Shmanka · Mar 25, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

STOP. I know what you're going to say.

Bring enchant removal.

Now, think of what you just said.

That's Buildwars. Not Guildwars.

Right here I think your point sorta gets mislead, of course enchantment removal removes enchantments. It is a general counter to "all enchantments" Aegis is not the "only enchantment". Should a general balanced build bring interrupts? Yes, do 90% of the gvg teams bring enchantments besides Aegis "yes". So enchantment removal should already be statutory. There really shouldn't be a question, the only way to make this point of "Build Wars" correct in my point. I also understand variety should be delt with, and this is the best way have as many general counters as possible and since enchantments are general purpose on most professions. I don't think enchantment removal should be a for or against argument. Its necessary.