Curse

Randomway Ftw · Apr 29, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I see this skill used as a prep in halls ranger spike gimmicks, and I don't really understand why people use it (unless they have gotten dumber in the last few months). Read the Wind is better IMO.

Lets look at the advantages of glass arrows

-Heavy damage (multiplied with dual shot or forked arrow)
-Tied to expertise

Disadvantages

-Elite (so you lose out on potential utility skills)
-No increased flight speed
-The damage Glass Arrows has over Read the Wind will be unnecessary over kill.

Read the Wind

Advantages
-Faster Arrows
-Not elite

Disadvantages
-Does less damage (however additional damage from glass arrows in unnecessary)

I think the fact that you get to use your elite for utility, while doing enough damage makes makes Read the Wind > Glass Arrows. Not to mention the added bonus of faster arrows.

Any thoughts?

Thom Bangalter · Apr 29, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

how is 4 copies of punishing considered "utility"?

Randomway Ftw · Apr 29, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

how is 4 copies of punishing considered "utility"?

Where did I say punishing?

and punishing sucks just as bad as glass arrows.

By utility I mean stuff like Expel Hexes, Crip Shot, Cautery Signet, Oath Shot, among other things.

Lord Mendes · Apr 29, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

how is 4 copies of punishing considered "utility"?

The main (recent) incarnations of ranger spike in HA had dual + savage and marauders + punishing (I think this became hot after the dual shot nerf), so they could spike every 3-4 seconds. This is the only non-tomb era ranger spike build I can think of where all rangers carried punishing.
I remember some teams just spiking with Dual + savage, and carrying shit like crippling shot and charge, though I doubt that's around now.
Back in the retarded interupt-fest days, some ranger spikes in HA even had practiced stance (and seeking arrow) as their elite.
Oath shot was another hot one.

Saying punishing shot was the only elite used in ranger spike is not exactly true.

EDIT: randomway beat me to it.

MAdnRisKy · Apr 29, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

read the wind and favourable don't stack well at all.

Have you seen what 16 exp gives you? combined with forked arrows you can spike without any kind of e problem every 5 seconds.

our build was done with no enchants, instead opting for paragon shouts. We could clean spike with 4 rangers, to the extent that if 1 ranger was completely shut down we'd still kill, even if the deep wound from the paragon never had chance to land. We chose shatter storm as the para elite and never looked back. 3 copies of go for the eyes, 2 shields up, a watch yourself etc etc.

This also meant with careful monk selection, we could run under NR.

That last point was the clincher for us, glass arrows' extra dmg meant we didn't need orders, no orders means you can use forked, which gives a rapid spike, no orders means you can run NR, at the time, hex was, and still is very prevelant, but with 3 monks to fill you could amply afford a ton of removal, whilst having 4 copies of d shot under NR to sort out the hexers.

Randomway Ftw · Apr 29, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

read the wind and favourable don't stack well at all.

Your forgetting the fact will just kill favorable, and its gone for 60 seconds.

Quote:

Have you seen what 16 exp gives you? combined with forked arrows you can spike without any kind of e problem every 5 seconds.

The breakpoint for 10 energy skills to cost 4 is 14 expertise.

Quote:

our build was done with no enchants, instead opting for paragon shouts. We could clean spike with 4 rangers, to the extent that if 1 ranger was completely shut down we'd still kill, even if the deep wound from the paragon never had chance to land. We chose shatter storm as the para elite and never looked back. 3 copies of go for the eyes, 2 shields up, a watch yourself etc etc.

Its not a good thing when there is the potential for parasitic bond to shut down your entire build.

Quote:

This also meant with careful monk selection, we could run under NR.

That helps, but with forked arrow you will have one hell of a time playing a competent hex team.

Quote:

That last point was the clincher for us, glass arrows' extra dmg meant we didn't need orders, no orders means you can use forked, which gives a rapid spike, no orders means you can run NR, at the time, hex was, and still is very prevelant, but with 3 monks to fill you could amply afford a ton of removal, whilst having 4 copies of d shot under NR to sort out the hexers.

But, you essentially wasted your elite, with the damage buffing abilities of a paragon you could have easily killed without glass arrows, or orders and could have brought expel on a few rangers, so that you would be able to deal with even a heavy hex team. Shutdown isn't as much of a problem because of the rate at which you spike.

MAdnRisKy · Apr 29, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

you are of course right in what you say.

We found we could kill quicker than they could hex stack.
Anyway I've done my best to play devil's advocate for you, but it would seem I picked the losing side. Odd thread if you ask me, you might have just made a thread pointing out the world is round

Wild Karrde · May 07, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I love glass arrows. I run with Marksmanship at 16 and expertise at 14, and I use Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Sundering Attack, and Needling Shot. Ive had Forked hit for over 100 dmg an arrow on more than one occasion, and Ive had Dual Shot hit for 60 - 80 dmg an arrow; Sundering Ive had hit as high as 172 on several occasions, and needling shot does a consistent 50 dmg, when a foes health is below 50% I just spam needling which hits about twice a second. Thats alot of dmg. A rangers SLOW as hell refire rate doesnt make that damage over powering at all, and as I said it was on several occasions not all, theres been some where forked hit for only 30 an arrow.

Glass arrows is my favorite preparation hands down.

If you think its bad and dont understand why your opponents are using it why in the hell would you post this? Sounds more like to me your complaining about it cause you got your but kicked and now come here to say its useless in an attempt to get people to stop using it. I also dont understand why you would say the additional dmg of glass arrows is unnecessary. Im always up for more damage to a build, the more the better.

This post is pretty much useless. Youre saying you dont understand why people use it and then say "unless people have dumbed down in the past few months" wich states you "think" it sucks, but its obviously being used and to some success. And then when someone comes to give an answer to why its used you argue it like theres no possible way for them to be right.

Theres a reason Glass Arrows is an Elite.

This thread should close

Bankai · May 08, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Karrde.

Do you play high end pvp?

Nuff said.

Kthxbai.

Also, your argument about getting their butt kicked is hilarious.

Thomas.knbk · May 08, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Do you play high end pvp?

He has some pretty valid arguments actually. Being able to run very high expertise (though 16-14 is wtf?) is definitely an advantage. You can spike a lot with that. Also, there is no such thing as 'useless damage' in a spike. The more the better.

Randomway Ftw · May 08, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

I love glass arrows. I run with Marksmanship at 16 and expertise at 14, and I use Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Sundering Attack, and Needling Shot. Ive had Forked hit for over 100 dmg an arrow on more than one occasion, and Ive had Dual Shot hit for 60 - 80 dmg an arrow; Sundering Ive had hit as high as 172 on several occasions, and needling shot does a consistent 50 dmg, when a foes health is below 50% I just spam needling which hits about twice a second. Thats alot of dmg. A rangers SLOW as hell refire rate doesnt make that damage over powering at all, and as I said it was on several occasions not all, theres been some where forked hit for only 30 an arrow.

Glass arrows is my favorite preparation hands down.

If you think its bad and dont understand why your opponents are using it why in the hell would you post this? Sounds more like to me your complaining about it cause you got your but kicked and now come here to say its useless in an attempt to get people to stop using it. I also dont understand why you would say the additional dmg of glass arrows is unnecessary. Im always up for more damage to a build, the more the better.

This post is pretty much useless. Youre saying you dont understand why people use it and then say "unless people have dumbed down in the past few months" wich states you "think" it sucks, but its obviously being used and to some success. And then when someone comes to give an answer to why its used you argue it like theres no possible way for them to be right.

Theres a reason Glass Arrows is an Elite.

This thread should close

You, have no clue what you are talking about, I am talking about the use of glass arrows in a ranger spike build, not in a flare spamming (spamming ranger attack skills in PVE) pve situation.

You can go ahead and run glass arrows if you want, that's fine, just more fame for others.

Lol, this is a new way of flaming, saying that I think a skill is bad because I can't beat it in order to trick people into not using it. You are right, that's exactly what I'm doing. (sarcasm for those of you with half a brain)

DutchSmurf · May 09, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

I think the fact that you get to use your elite for utility, while doing enough damage makes makes Read the Wind > Glass Arrows. Not to mention the added bonus of faster arrows.

Any thoughts?

When running a spikebuild you always want as much damage as you can get. Glass Arrows is the preparation that does most damage. We are talking about 9-10 damage per arrow. If you have 4 rangers all hitting 3 times that is 120 damage.
The faster arrows of Read the Wind is of course very nice, but not needed for a spike. You can easily do without it. Read the Wind is useful when you want to improve your chance of hitting with an interrupt, not really when playing a spikebuild. People always used it because there was nothing better.
Another thing about running a spikebuild is that you give up on utility anyway. Your utility is killing the target that gives you a problem, not countering what he does. Of course you need some kind of enchantremoval, but you don't need an elite for that. Hex/condition removal can be handled by your 3 monks.

So if you have a spikebuild, you run what gives you the most damage for your spike. Your utility is spiking. 120 more damage is well worth the elite.

Skuld · May 09, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

When running a spikebuild you always want as much damage as you can get.

No, as much defense as you can get, HA in particular.

Randomway Ftw · May 09, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

When running a spikebuild you always want as much damage as you can get. Glass Arrows is the preparation that does most damage. We are talking about 9-10 damage per arrow. If you have 4 rangers all hitting 3 times that is 120 damage.
The faster arrows of Read the Wind is of course very nice, but not needed for a spike. You can easily do without it. Read the Wind is useful when you want to improve your chance of hitting with an interrupt, not really when playing a spikebuild. People always used it because there was nothing better.
Another thing about running a spikebuild is that you give up on utility anyway. Your utility is killing the target that gives you a problem, not countering what he does. Of course you need some kind of enchantremoval, but you don't need an elite for that. Hex/condition removal can be handled by your 3 monks.

So if you have a spikebuild, you run what gives you the most damage for your spike. Your utility is spiking. 120 more damage is well worth the elite.

Well, you see we fundamentally disagree on how a spike build should be run, a spike build using only a few skills to spike, can pack more utility and defense, which if utilized correctly will give you a better chance to beat teams that pack counters to the spike build. Having a free elite is a very good thing for a spike build, especially when it does not really effect an experienced teams ability to get kills.

TheOneMephisto · May 09, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

When running a spikebuild you always want as much damage as you can get. Glass Arrows is the preparation that does most damage. We are talking about 9-10 damage per arrow. If you have 4 rangers all hitting 3 times that is 120 damage.
The faster arrows of Read the Wind is of course very nice, but not needed for a spike. You can easily do without it. Read the Wind is useful when you want to improve your chance of hitting with an interrupt, not really when playing a spikebuild. People always used it because there was nothing better.
Another thing about running a spikebuild is that you give up on utility anyway. Your utility is killing the target that gives you a problem, not countering what he does. Of course you need some kind of enchantremoval, but you don't need an elite for that. Hex/condition removal can be handled by your 3 monks.

So if you have a spikebuild, you run what gives you the most damage for your spike. Your utility is spiking. 120 more damage is well worth the elite.

As others have said, in a spike build, you want enough damage to kill reliably and fairly often, and then you want to pack as much defense and utility into your remaining spots as possible. There's a reason obsflamespike was so popular, you had a couple skill slots for the spike and then you could load up on wards and defense. There's also a reason why all the old GvG rspike guilds would run with charge and cripshot on their rangers and would just spike with dual->savage.

D Fault · May 10, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Charge and Cripshot were not really used for defence in RSpike. They're both used so you can catch and snare people that don't want to fight you.

Dual and Savage were used because they did the most damage (other than Punishing in place of Savage, which also has a longer recharge) and because you could spike every six seconds with them.

Defence skills the rangers might bring would be Whirling Defence and maybe Watch Youreslf/Shields Up.

TheOneMephisto · May 12, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

Charge and Cripshot were not really used for defence in RSpike. They're both used so you can catch and snare people that don't want to fight you.

Dual and Savage were used because they did the most damage (other than Punishing in place of Savage, which also has a longer recharge) and because you could spike every six seconds with them.

Defence skills the rangers might bring would be Whirling Defence and maybe Watch Youreslf/Shields Up.

Charge and cripshot fit into the utility part, as not only can they help you catch people and counter splits, they also can help kiting and disrupt enemy warriors.