Curse

Coloneh · May 14, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Iv been working on a hero battles build:http://www.pvxbuilds.com/index.php?t...s#Hero_Battles

for the first character (probably me) im thinking either a devastating/"on your knees!" thumper, or a CS warrior. im also considering switching the ranger to some sort of melee.

any advice/opinions?

thanks

Edit- The second build is more thought out and I wold really like some input

TheOneMephisto · May 15, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

You have two fundamental problems with your build:

1) You're assuming that heroes can use builds that a regular human would be able to. Heroes are retarded. In reality, the monk will probably waste GoLE on 5 energy skills and then spam prot spirit around like mad. In reality, the smiter will just smite random targets that need healing rather than smiting for damage. Heroes are retarded, and you have to find builds for them that are simplistic and easy to use.

2) You're building for a 4v4 fight. HvH is all about the split in the current metagame. If you want to have any chance at success with an original build, you first have to think about how you're going to deal with splitting vs a 2-1-1 split of SP sin+ monk, R/P, R/P. None of your characters there are self-sufficient enough, so you're going to be relying on only yourself splitting? Not happening.

Besides those, you also have some more basic problems. There is no way to remove conditions off the monk, and HvH is about monk stomping more often than not. Metagame HvH really doesn't have very many interruptible spells (limited to about mend ailment/dismiss, mend touch, expose, siphon speed, guardian), so your ranger won't really be doing that much. Holy veil is inferior to deny hexes on a monk with any DF spells, as heroes don't know how to preveil and the ability to micro getting 2 hexes off is better (unless you want to manually preveil?). Res sigs aren't really worth it on monks in general, and TBH I usually don't take a single res sig in HvH. 1 or 2 is okay just to prevent monk wipes, but the lack of 4v4 makes those unnecessary.

So basically, I suggest scrapping your build. Make a build that can beat the metagame if you want to try, but keep in mind that it better be able to split 3-4 ways, kill monks in 4v4, defend against tons of enchant removal + sins + condition pressure all ganging up on your monk, and still have to deal with the retardedness of the hero AI. It's a pretty hard thing to do IMO, and that's why the metagame is as stagnant as it is.

Oh, and you might want to go play hero battles (probably unranked?) for a while with some different builds so that you can really understand how stupid heroes are. It blows my mind sometimes, and that's why I gave up on making my own builds.

Coloneh · May 16, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

bump so people notice the edit up there ^^

FoxBat · May 16, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

This isn't a whole lot better, simply because again it can't split well enough.

Start with watching obs mode. Copy several builds, but also note which heroes go to what shrines. Play with those for a while, *then* come back with a build. Note that the name of the game is mostly surviving while holding more shrines than the enemy. Killing only comes in when you have the shrine advantage, or are deadlocked in the capping game, or are a player ganking a hero. That makes a typical build 1 offense, 1 healer, and 2 split heroes. People typically open with a 2-1-1 split to control as much as possible. Any uncontested shrine should have a single split hero at it to cap.

Hard to think of things that can beat the R/P for split-ability... part of the trouble is you need at least one build that can survive on its own without targeted micro, because you need to send heroes out of radar range sometimes. R/P are more resistant to SP sin ganks than almost anything, though people are moving away from SP sins for this exact reason. A very perverse kind of meta evolution HvH has...

Coloneh · May 16, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

that really didnt make much sense at all. could you maybe explain why that cant split? because those builds should be able to survive quite well the way i suggested to split.

FoxBat · May 16, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I would think your monk/derv combo will have trouble staying alive with only dismiss and imbue as your heals (plus DF/myst), but it might work out with all the defensive builds people are running now.

The warrior needs some condition removal, or he can fall to sin or touch ranger blinding, or even R/P pressure. If you go the frenzy route you're going to need to disable and micro that obviously...

Heal party is generally kinda lame in 4v4, it does have the benefit of remote healing so he can help you while off holding another shrine, but its still only 65ish health. I guess I'd have to play with this idea to see how it works, it is different.

TheOneMephisto · May 16, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Considering that enchant removal/expose defenses is extremely popular in the current metagame, your team is screwed. Most assassins carry either rending sweep, assault enchants, or shattering assault.

You monk/derv team won't be able to survive against an enemy sin/monk team, mainly just due to expose defenses and the aforementioned enchant removal. Imbue just isn't enough for keeping you up. Also I simply wouldn't suggest avatars, because this isn't like GvG where you can simply play defensive while your avatar is down and push when it's up. You're going to need that avatar all the time, and every time you don't have it up and therefore don't have an elite is going to hurt bad.

I love warriors, but that warrior is going to be taken down on a split also. He won't be able to kill R/Ps quickly enough (remedy + heal as one + block stances), and one the R/P starts putting some pressure on him he's going to be using heal sig a lot... and if he doesn't or it gets interrupted he will die. I suggest forgoing frenzy and taking disciplined stance to cover his heal sigs, and possible screwing rending touch/eremite's for mend touch/block stance (shield bash?).

And I'm not sure that this build just has enough healing for a 4v4 or 3v3 battle. It's limited to an imbue, small heals from the ele, and DF from the monk. All it takes is catching the derv while not in avatar or catching the warrior under frenzy or just training the monk and you're going to be dieing.

But the real problem I think is over reliance on enchantments. Out of the last couple games I've played, I'd say at least half had shattering assault or assault enchantments, and that's going to be brutal on you.