Curse

Patccmoi · Jun 08, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I think that one big thing lacking to Rt atm is nice utility instead of big numbers. A lot of their skills have requirement (must be in earshot of a spirit, hold ashes, have weap spell) and i think it's interesting, but most become 'broken' as this requirement is met instead of fine, and i think a big part of it it's because nukes reach too big numbers.

So instead i was thinking 'why not remove all that +damage crap from requirement and give utility instead?'. Skills combining effects are usually interesting. For example on Rts, Essence Strike and Soothing Memories are great since they combine a bit of damage/healing with a bit of emanagement.

So here's a few idea i had to help:

1) Channeled Strike
10/2/6
Target foe is struck for 10..94..122 lightning damage. If you're holding an item and that foe is attacking, he is knocked down.

Would be an interesting way to reduce melee pressure while having a good skill to spike assist too. Slightly nerfed the total damage and recharge. It's also meant to remain the only skill that can hit for above 100 damage.

2) Lamentation
10/1/20
Target foe takes 5..53..69 damage. If target foe is casting a spell or a Ritual in earshot of a spirit, that foe is interrupted and dazed for 2..6s.

The cast time doesn't make it a reliable interrupt on spells, but it can be a nice situational daze. It would also be nice against spirit spammers since if they use a spirit and try to use another, you can interrupt + daze them. Slightly nerfed damage and raised energy cost to compensate.

3) Spirit Burn

5/1/6. Target foe is struck for 15..51..63 lightning damage. If any Spirits are within earshot, target foe is set on fire for 1..3s.

It'd do similar damage to now, but can't spike and a part is armor ignoring through burning. Becomes a good pressure skill with low spike potential.

4) Wielder's Strike

10/.75/10

Target foe takes 10..70..90 damage. If you are under effect of a weapon spell and target foe is using a Skill, that foe is interrupted.

Interesting utility especially in skirmishes. slightly improved cast time and recharge, but nerfed damage and raised energy to 10.

5) Gaze from Beyond

5/1/10

Target foe is struck for 15..51..63 damage. The spirit nearest you loses 10..41..53 health. For every 10 health lost, target foe is blind for 2s.

So this would become a small pressure skill that can blind too. It's cheap compared to something like BFlash, but it's 1s cast, 10s recharge, and requires a spirit to blind.

6) Spirit Transfer

10/.25/5

Target ally is healed for 10..130..170 health. The spirit nearest to you loses 5...41 health. For every 10 health loss, target ally gains 10AL for 5s.

So this would become a slightly worse direct heal (basically Heal Other with faster cast but no DF and longer recharge), but would add some prot on top. Would give Rts a strong spike-saving ability with a mix of heal + prot, but even with no spirit you can still at least get the heal.

7) Wielder's Boon

5/2/4

Target ally is healed for 30..114..139 health. If that ally is under the effects of a "Weapon Spell, this spell casts in .25s.

So this way it becomes a powerful but slow heal if your target doesn't have a Weapon Spell, but that can still be useful when not under heavy pressure to top people health. If they're under heavy pressure, then the fast cast time compensate for the time you have to spend casting the weapon.

This is just ideas and could likely be tweaked, maybe there's also abuse potential i didn't really notice, but the point is to actually fit utility on Rt skills instead of retarded numbers with the requirement system in place. With those changes, Rt would gain a potential interrupt, short daze, blind, burning and knockdown in Channeling and a decent prot against spike in Restoration. But they'd lose stupidly strong spikes. It would give more depth to the class and make it more interesting as part of balanced setup.

A lot of tweaking would have to be done with the spirit and spirit-related skills too still though. And Ashpot change similar to what i posted in the other thread could be interesting.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 08, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

While I think adding utility to some of the more gimmicky Rit skills is a good idea, the problem with these specific buffs is that they need to fit into actual ritualist templates. At the moment, giving a rit an interrupt feels like giving a ranger Heal Other - outside of some 321spike build, rits aren't usually scanning the enemy team, so they're just not going to get much mileage out of it.

The larger problem is, no one can agree on what a good Ritualist template looks like. The class has been in-and-out of viability for ages with all manner of templates, from defensive spirit-shitters to uber flagstand-spikers to skirmish support. I don't know what role a Rit is supposed to fill on a team, and judging from the skill changes over the past year, Arenanet doesn't know either.

The only Rit template I've ever really liked is the weapon spammer that was run in pressure builds for a while. He'd support his melee with Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage, but he could instantly go into defensive mode with WaW and some other restoration skills. This template was heavily reminiscent of the AoE smiter, and I'd love to see that role expanded for rits. Characters that can support well in skirmish while maintaining a strong offensive and defensive flagstand role are good for the game.

So with all that in mind, where am I going to be using these skill buffs? Is there a rit template that constantly tabs through the enemy team and watches for converging warriors and key 2s spells? I don't know of one, and I don't think the skills exist to make a 'disruption rit' work.

Once you've figured out what you want the templates to do, you can build the utility around that. Think about who a Rit template will be targeting, and where their attention will be focused. It's easy to try to give a class a little of everything, and that's exactly what caused Rits to be such a design problem in the first place.

Zuranthium · Jun 08, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I agree with the Spirit Burn idea but the rest don't many any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The only Rit template I've ever really liked is the weapon spammer that was run in pressure builds for a while. He'd support his melee with Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage, but he could instantly go into defensive mode with WaW and some other restoration skills. This template was heavily reminiscent of the AoE smiter, and I'd love to see that role expanded for rits. Characters that can support well in skirmish while maintaining a strong offensive and defensive flagstand role are good for the game.

Although I agree with your last sentence 100%, Splinter Weapon is way overpowered for VoD!!! So I still don't think we've seen a perfectly balanced Rit build yet.

~Z

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 08, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Although I agree with your last sentence 100%, Splinter Weapon is way overpowered for VoD!!! So I still don't think we've seen a perfectly balanced Rit build yet.

I don't think it's that much worse than any other powerful AoE effect at VoD. The mechanics of VoD make AoE incredibly powerful - you ball a team's NPCs or catch them bunched up for a few seconds, and their entire team is dead almost instantly. Compare directly to the AoE smiter, a template that was nerfed into oblivion for reasons I will probably never understand.

Any persistent AoE you bring along is going to get supercharged by VoD. That doesn't mean all good AoE is overpowered.

Zuranthium · Jun 08, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

There is a HUGE difference with Splinter Weapon in comparison to other AOE abilities:

You can pre-buff all of your non-Monks with Splinter Weapon before VoD and then use it twice more in less than 10 seconds time after the initial pre-buff weapons wear off.

The duration and recharge rates are THAT good. For a team that doesn't even try to gank opposing NPCs before VoD, Splinter Weapon is like twice as powerful as SEARING FLAMES. Definitely needs to be fixed.

~Z

Ensign · Jun 08, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Meteor Shower is a pile of shit compared to Splinter Weapon at VoD.

It doesn't quite measure up to a big pack of Searing Flames Eles on damage alone, but it's comparable, and you only have to spend one slot on one character instead of a bunch of elites on squishy guys.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Jun 08, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Splinter Weapon just needs a duration nerf. The effect is fine (well, 4 next attack vs 5 next attack could be changed), it's just retarded cause with 1 copy of it in the build you can Splinter absolutely everyone in the team, and some Archers if you want too.

A duration of 10-12s would make it well balanced.

As for the suggestions making no sense, maybe, it was not something i thought about for long either. But i'd still want the 'requirement' to provide utility instead of +damage/+healing. So that not meeting requirement still gives you a good, usable skill (for example Wielder's Strike can still do its full damage), and that meeting requirement adds versatility to it. Since you often have to devote skill slots to actually meet those requirement, you take away from your utility, so it needs to be put back somewhere.

Personally i don't see any problem with Wielder's Strike interrupting as to who you're targetting Squidget. When i played Channeling Rt before with nukes as part of balanced setup (a long time ago... remember when DeeR used it in a tournament after we beat them with it the night before), i was constantly zapping their midline/backline. Having an interrupt as part of a nuke would've been really useful and quite interesting. It's also really good for skirmishes and i think that skirmishing is Rt's strongest point atm.

And i agree that the most interesting Rts by far are the Channeling/Resto hybrid able to support both offense and defense. Having 1-2 weapon spells for offense, 1-2 for defense, some direct heal, some direct nuke makes for a great character useful at stand and in skirmish. Communing are incredibly lame in general (the whole communing concept is stupid imo. It would need a TOTAL reworking), and pure Resto/Channeling tends to lack something. But if there was some more utility mixed in the skills, pure Channeling/Resto could be more versatile and more interesting.

Saider maul · Jun 08, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I agree splinter weapon's duration should be nerfed but I see 10-12sec duration a bit excessive as that drop is a reduction to approx. 25% of its original duration. IMO a duration of 12-20sec would be much more viable for making a push at the flag stand or during VoD while not allowing the skill to be overly exploited.

As far as the damage from splinter weapon I do not see it " over powered "
as it is adjcent range. Had the range Been nearby then I would begin to question the dmg of this skill.

I am also on the same page with you as the ritualist is the one class who's Template doesn't exactly fit well in most team builds. The class has so much potential especially as a support / utility.

I put the approuch Anet has taken over the past year to the ritualist the same as the paragon. A strong class able to support the Team and be capable of Damage support but nerfed out of necessity due to " PPPP " ( Piss poor prior planning ) As they seem weak solo in a team but yet Uber when its an entire team of them.

Its a shame we cant make much more use out of them then as farmers ATM. :/

RotteN · Jun 09, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

splinter weapon's damage is overpowered at VoD because of the retarded programmed positioning of NPC's. They so easely bunch up all together and rarely spread out when they all get massacred by AoE.

simply fixing that NPC positioning would make VoD a whole different ballgame ...

the duration still needs to be scaled down though

frojack · Jun 09, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

While I think adding utility to some of the more gimmicky Rit skills is a good idea, the problem with these specific buffs is that they need to fit into actual ritualist templates. At the moment, giving a rit an interrupt feels like giving a ranger Heal Other - outside of some 321spike build, rits aren't usually scanning the enemy team, so they're just not going to get much mileage out of it.

The larger problem is, no one can agree on what a good Ritualist template looks like. The class has been in-and-out of viability for ages with all manner of templates, from defensive spirit-shitters to uber flagstand-spikers to skirmish support. I don't know what role a Rit is supposed to fill on a team, and judging from the skill changes over the past year, Arenanet doesn't know either.

The only Rit template I've ever really liked is the weapon spammer that was run in pressure builds for a while. He'd support his melee with Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage, but he could instantly go into defensive mode with WaW and some other restoration skills. This template was heavily reminiscent of the AoE smiter, and I'd love to see that role expanded for rits. Characters that can support well in skirmish while maintaining a strong offensive and defensive flagstand role are good for the game.

So with all that in mind, where am I going to be using these skill buffs? Is there a rit template that constantly tabs through the enemy team and watches for converging warriors and key 2s spells? I don't know of one, and I don't think the skills exist to make a 'disruption rit' work.

Once you've figured out what you want the templates to do, you can build the utility around that. Think about who a Rit template will be targeting, and where their attention will be focused. It's easy to try to give a class a little of everything, and that's exactly what caused Rits to be such a design problem in the first place.

That is a very interesting take on it...

While I whole-heartedly support Patccmoi's direction (a great idea), your certainly right about the actual buffs needing to 'fit'. The problem with the channeling line is the fact that within itself, it's an obscure Air-clone lacking the Air utility. What tends to happen is people will look here first and build around an air spike mind set, then grab some great utility from Restoration (or even Communing. Weapon of Quickening is a very good elite if you can handle the 2 second cast).
This is usually backwards and yields low results (unless your going for gimmick spike). The reverse tends to work pretty well and is pretty flexible. As in, Look at the utility skills first, then build some damage in there if you really need it. These bars end up looking a lot like dervish bars with only around 3 actual 'attack' skills (This is from my own experiences coming from TA, to a lesser extent HA, and admittedly rare low-mid end GvG).

You could build utility around those 3 potential attack skills. The Gaze From Beyond blind sits well in there considering all the physicals flying around. It's a lot worse than a B surger (especially in Draw city GvG) but it's not it's primary role. Depending on how much you use Wow it may be less important to carry.

The Wielder's Strike interrupt is interesting. Under Weapon of Quickening you have a skill interrupt every 7 seconds. Like you say, there may not be a bar that scans the foes to interrupt important skills but with a skill like this, people would begin to. It's all about having the tools in the first place.

On cross Channeling/Resto bars people tend to switch from foes to allies to foes quite a bit. It's a bit clunky and slows things up, but the utility is usually worth it (damage buffs, Wow, Vengeful/Remedy etc.). I only see this as a major problem in spike heavy meta which nobody wants anyway (again my angle is limited here. Are there other major pit falls?).

The Spirit Transfer idea looks amazing but it also looks a over-powered. Is the AL thing a side effect? What kind? +40 AL for 20 seconds would be a very powerful buff. It would be in the wrong place if it was an enchantment and it would either be over-powered as a weapon spell, or at the very least be somewhat annoying if it removed your Wow. Don't really know how you'd do this, buffs you can't see are problematic.
It could function as a weapon spell I guess (as in a skill that leaves a weapon spell on a target if the condition is met). It would really boil down to when is +AL more desirable than a physical foe missing 50% of the time? Warriors Cunning (from [Te] fame)? Guided Weapon (if it ever sees play)?

Lamentation and Channeled Strike.

Dazed and knockdown. Probably too strong.

Lamentation might be interesting with a small Dazed. Something like 0..3..3 seconds of Dazed. Enough to cause minor disruption, but not enough to really break a target. It would then become the 'over-the-edge' tool. You use it at the tipping point to push your opponent over the edge when you think they're about to roll.
When you consider knockdown lasts 2 seconds anyway I don't think this would be too bad. The only problem may be chain-dazed from multiple Rits. That could be bad. Which would work nicely if you added an 'If foe isn't suffering from Dazed' clause.

Channeled Strike hit's pretty hard, even without the item spell. On a 4 second recharge it's pretty mean. The cast time is a tough one, but while no one ever uses it, put a Knockdown on Channeled on a 6 second recharge and people will break out the Tranquil was Tanasen (or just go Rt/Me for the stances). If a knockdown is desired for this skill then it really needs another condition in there. Like 'If foe has more health than you' or something.

Wielder's Boon on those numbers would still not be worth taking over Mend Body. 2 second cast heals are really bad. It should be a good skill before the condition is met, then a great skill afterwards. Like Mend Body.

All in all, a far more interesting direction than just mindless + damage.

Symbol · Jun 09, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

While I like the general idea, I think some of these changes make these skills less useful. For example, spirit burn-it's now a cheaper conditional immolate with twice the recharge...why? And if you don't have a spirit, it's total crap, which is what you're trying to avoid in the first place.

IMO there need to be a couple of bread and butter damage skills that you can put on your bar for some respectable dps and then we can think about how to add utility.

For channeled strike, just remove the ashpot requirement. It's just a hoop you have to jump through, and it doesn't actually make the skill less powerful, instead it just restricts the number of viable builds you can use it in. If you're holding an item, make it give you back energy.

Give spirit burn an optional AoE component. AoE is a decent way of rewarding skill IMO.

Something like:
Channeled Strike
10e 2s 4r
Target foe is struck for 15...99...127 lightning damage. If you are holding an item you gain 1..3..3 energy.

Spirit Burn
5e 1s 5r
Target foe is struck for 20...68...84 lightning damage. If you are within earshot of a spirit, this skill strikes one additional foe near your target.

For lamentation, if you're going to make it interrupt, it needs to have a fast cast time. Also, make it something like cry of frustration (everyone in the area of a spirit is interrupted).

Gaze from Beyond....eh uncovered conditional blind on a 10s recharge is pretty lame in large battles and the spirit requirement makes it unwieldy in small ones. Also, the damage isn't worthwhile on its own. Needs changing, not sure how.