Curse

Thom Bangalter · May 31, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Blurred is fine. Really, it is. as a standalone skill, it's pretty balanced. Gets stupid with aegis (which needs a nerf) and reckless, but as a skill on it's own, I think it's perfect. Sure its aoe, but it's aoe is piddly enough that your warriors need to be training a target to actually get hit with it, and you shouldn't be training targets in the first place.

Lodurr · May 31, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

This thread is really hoppin'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Maybe I'm not getting it, but what exactly is making BHA such a problem that can't be solved with one copy of Draw?

The duration is the issue. 16 seconds of daze is overdoing it. Dazing a monk should be used for mini-pushes, not for making the whole team collapse. Even if the off monk has a Dismiss, the daze is covered by poison and the poison is constantly reapplied by the ranger spamming attacks on him. Some builds actually lack a Draw, but anyway, suggesting a skill as a solution brings us back to build wars.

yesitsrob · May 31, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

On Soul Reaping: I'm not at all opposed to the 5 second thing. Soul Reaping while a completely sick mechanic from Spirits also got pretty retarded at Victory or Death - with all the Archers, Footmen, Bodyguards, and players dropping the team with Necros would be in a pretty good position since they'd happily heal through the insane pressure without worrying about energy.

I don't think that the amount of NPC deaths at VoD was really noticed as much before because well... the spirits were enough - But I think if you were to just remove it from spirits it would be more noticable.

That said they probably wouldn't make it to VoD - POST NULL AND VOID.

fenix · May 31, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

They should leave the 5 second timer, and just make it so you get 0 energy from Spirits. Problem solved

Ec]-[oMaN · May 31, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

This thread is really hoppin'.

The duration is the issue. 16 seconds of daze is overdoing it. Dazing a monk should be used for mini-pushes, not for making the whole team collapse. Even if the off monk has a Dismiss, the daze is covered by poison and the poison is constantly reapplied by the ranger spamming attacks on him. Some builds actually lack a Draw, but anyway, suggesting a skill as a solution brings us back to build wars.

So what would you do? Its an 15e Elite, requires the monk to stay put to land. What kinda team builds you running with no off draw/weapon warding/aegis/mend touch? Reguardless nerf the duration and good teams will still force a kill on the off monk and push your shit in.

Surena · May 31, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillian Treehugger

I am going to put the cat among the pigeons here

Looking at the OP suggestions i would say he is a Warrior at heart.

I don't like ass-kissing so don't take this as one but you should refrain from judging Ensign since you have no single clue, not even about the necro class you're trying to defend here.

Quote:

Warriors are to powerful and need a big nerf then maybe the anti melee stuff could stand.

Like 20% off all warrior skills then we could look at reducing the necro skill to his level. this game is about balance and not nerfing professions out of the game.

Warriors are strong, yes, but they are very easy to shut down but you wouldn't admit that because you're probably one of those k00l n3cr0 ph4rmaz in RA who feel godly because they mashed 1 2 3 4 5 on a warrior and afked with "gone fishin'" but leaving a "haha, LOOL, diz takes no skill but I feel good" in local.

Quote:

War is hell and as in real life people use every tool to achieve a win.

Yeah, overpowered skills have their use, they don't force you to be skillful. Yes, that's what this game needs.

Look carefully at the curse line and tell me how it's balanced when few skills a) totally shut down a melee/ranged class b) last for an eternity c) have bad non-elite counters/removals.

Ehrenia · May 31, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Concussion shot is great, and you want to make it better! I don't mind, but others might.

I don't think you can seriously suggest reducing shadow step distance to earshot, that's just going too far. (or not far enough :P)

LightningHell · May 31, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

2. Ensign probably knows more about how the game works than anyone bar the devs.

He probably knows more about fixing it than many the devs, for that matter...

bungusmaximus · May 31, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Hmm doubting a bit about crippling slash though. It's not that skill that is dangerous, but in combination with bulls strike and enraging charge it's pretty sick. It also alows my sword warrior to get off a quite decent spike in only 3 skill slots and if the target runs I can bulls strike it and cripple it anyway. Enraging more or less makes other warrior speed buffs look kinda pale anyways, who helps me on this one?

Ensign · May 31, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Well Ensign, if even you think your idea is too much of a buff for CS, why not up the recycle on it? Make it even more like BHA than it currently is but keep the conditional dazed

I think you want to buff it enough to make it competitive with Distracting and Savage Shot. Right now every single Ranger bar has those two interrupts, because they are without question the best and there are no substitutes.

Thinking about it a bit, I'd put it on 15e, 2...6s Daze, and 10r, with the intention of upping the recharge to 12-15 if it proves to be too good.

Short daze is interesting for the windows it creates. I'd like to see that be part of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

1) Aggressive Refrain

That's a good one. It's right on the edge.

Here's something to start with - a Paragon is not a Warrior in any way, shape, or form. I've never seen anyone try to run a Paragon as a Warrior substitute - it's always there as some sort of midline support guy. The damage is very good, to be sure, but it's not a melee replacement.

My impression of the situation goes something like this: Paragons are run over other competing classes because of the defense they provide to the team. That's why they're in Paraway, in iWay, in all of those dual Paragon Halls teams. If you hammer the passive defense enough, they stop being appealing characters to mass, because the lack of defense and utility starts to catch up with you when you can actually die. That solves the really degenerate problem that's making the game not fun. So, I'm focusing on what you need to hit to make the massed Paragon teams go away - which is basically the global passive defenses, and the Finales that go nuts with lots of shouters. Also, hitting the energy engines in the form of adrenal shouts, to slow down the character in general.

Now, once that's gone, you're realistically looking at singleton, offensive-oriented Paragons with a bit of additional team defense and utility, maybe two characters like that. We have characters like that now, in various flexible builds. Are those too good? No, I don't think so. So while Aggressive Refrain is really good, I don't think it's problematic. No need to hit it then, when there are plenty of problematic skills around still. I think the hit to GftE ends up putting splash damage on Aggressive Refrain as a singleton character, and if damage Paragons are really a problem after all the really degenerate stuff has been removed, then by all means hit it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

2) Blurred Vision

Another really good skill that's on the edge, but isn't really central to the problem (certainly not with hexes with 2x, 4x uptime floating around). I'd categorize it with Price of Failure, Spirit of Failure, Insidious Parasite, and the like that are strong hexes counterbalanced by high costs and long recharges. That said, I wouldn't cry at all if it got tapped on as well - direct comparison with Reckless Haste implies that it's a bit too good.

I think that the 1s cast time is absolutely key to making the AoE part of it matter. 2s cast, adjacent AoE really doesn't matter. If Blurred is just a generic 2s cast, long duration miss chance hex, it perhaps becomes even more part of the problem - any skill in using the skill is removed in favor of it just being another dumb miss chance hex to stack. So I think the thing you tweak on it is definitely the duration, so that it doesn't have the permanent uptime. 8...14 is the number that springs to mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

The only thing i wouldn't be too happy about is the nerf to Spirit Burn. Raising it to 12s recharge when it's supposed to basically be Rt's equivalent to Lightning Strike is bad imo, i'd MUCH rather see it at 5s recharge but with the damage lowered to something like 15..51..63 + 5..17..21 (so 20..68..84 when condition is met).

I agree entirely, I'd prefer Spirit Burn to be a pressure skill as well. I've suggested it in the past. However A.Net seems set on making it a spike skill, so I'm going to stick with that for now.

Bah, since it's a wishlist I might as well stop thinking about what A.Net might do, and put what would be best for the game there instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This needs to be talked about in further detail than what you wrote here. What exactly do you feel needs to be changed?

Perfect world? No Soul Reaping from spirits or minions, period. Chop the damn head off. Let the PvE lifers go nuts if they're bulldozing zones, it hardly matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I think that's far too much of a nerf. Passive spirit effect range (half of radar range) would be good.

I think that's the upper limit on teleport ranges before they are clearly unfair (that's the range where if you position perfectly between them and their anchor, they never leave cast range). Personally? After ages of splitting for dummies and any guy with /A teleporting all the way across the map, I'd like to see that absolutely hammered, but in being objective and fair double cast range would be a better place to start to preserve the full function of those skills as escape mechanisms.

Hence, I concur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Just fix the IAS stances, please. Don't hurt these skills.

Those skills are too powerful even without IAS stances.

Black Lotus Strike is "if you are hexed, I am at full mana to combo your face with, oh and I just landed an offhand so I get to start with my dual attack." This is the skill responsible for crazy long attack combos. It's your setup and your energy management in one shot. It's worth two pips of energy easy, plus whatever you get from critting on it, plus the damage, plus enabling the combo system. Chopping 5 energy off of your combo enabler, and giving it +damage in line with it being a utility skill and not a rawdog beater is entirely appropriate.

Shadow Prison is such an incredibly awesome effect between being a fast recharge offensive teleport, and a hard snare of the target so that they have no choice but to sit there and take it. It's spiking for retards in one nice little package. I think that at the very least you should have to invest points in the skill's attribute if you want your super spiking for retards tool to work. Unlike now, where you put your dump points in it and the effect is still up even after you finished your combo.

The mindset of leaving the problem skills intact, but nerfing everything but the problem skills to try and 'balance' things just makes things worse and slags a lot of skills in the process. When the problem skills aren't even good for the game, I don't understand how there can even be a question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'd say an 8 second recharge and also reduce the weakness duration to 5 seconds so that the skill is less of an annoyance on templates other than the Melandru Dervish.

Reduce the weakness to 5 seconds, who cares, it'll still be slag on anything but a Melandru's Dervish. Do it if it makes you feel better about hammering the damage and recharge on the thing. The skill's benefits have to be balanced entirely within the context of being used on a Melandru's Dervish, and from that perspective it's clearly out of bounds. Personally, I want to put a 15 second recharge on the thing. How fast do you charge Eviscerate again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Absolutely. Go even slightly higher on the burning duration (1 + Attribute Rank/2). Makes the skill good for a single elementalist in a build but reduces the spikeyness of using lots of them.

I had it scaling 3...10 initially, but didn't put it in there like that at risk of focusing on how high that was. But you're exactly right about it, the skill is terrible on a single Elementalist right now but absurd in packs. Big degenerate packs of Fire Elementalists spamming the same skill over and over is *THE ABSOLUTE LOW POINT* of competitive gameplay. The skill should be made good as a singleton, with some benefit from hitting a burning target so that it's something that you can spam as the only Searing Flames Ele in a build.

As is, Searing Flames packs beat out Shadow Prison Assassins and Steady Stance Warriors in a contest to be the most drool-inducing template in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

<Frozen Burst> 12 seconds, imo, but the long aftercast on PBAOE spells needs to be removed as well.

That's a better number actually, since you couldn't loop it anymore without fast recharges. Updating. The long aftercast on PBAoEs is stupid and I'd love to see that go away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I really do not believe either of these need a nerf. They are perfectly balanced, actually?

I will explain my problem with Daze a bit more in-depth.

It is the only condition in the game that counters its own counters. If you blind a target, which shuts someone down just as hard, there are a bunch of countermeasures you can put on that character itself, let alone the rest of the team. You can fight it with any single removal since it's virtually always applied as a single condition. Even if you don't, it blinks off on its own fairly quickly. It's also a purely defensive condition, so even if you can't get to it immediately it isn't game, set, and match. You only have to deal with it in windows to score kills and win games.

If you put Daze on a target, he becomes helpless. He cannot remove Daze from himself, because Daze makes all the Daze-removal tools take twice as long to cast and trivially interrupted. In order to have any chance of pulling it off yourself, you have to either shake off your attackers so that you can cast in peace (which is really bloody hard when everyone knows you're dazed), or create some combo with a lot of block infrastructure so that you can remove it, some fraction of the time, without a blow landing. By remove, I mean Mending Touch, because Daze comes from Rangers and that means that it's always covered by Poison. No single removal will work, as Poison goes right back on before another single removal can do its job. Also, because Daze is an offensive condition, you can't let it linger like a defensive condition. You need to take it off, fast, or it can very likely cost you the game. Hence the only ways to deal with Daze are massive block/miss defensive infrastructures, or multiple mass removals on different characters - neither of which are remotely viable in small fights.

So, of course, this must remove condition that wins the fight lasts *at least* 15 seconds, and likely 20 or more seconds, so there's absolutely no hope of it blinking off (hell, even if you did last with it on for duration it would be reapplied before it expires), for the low, low cost of standing next to someone and pushing the "This ****er's dazed!" button. This is of course the epitome of balanced gameplay that properly rewards player skill.

Or not.

I mentioned it earlier - nerf daze durations until timing starts to matter, where it grants windows of hard shutdown that need to be exploited before the daze blinks off. As is, 20 second Dazes are about as interesting as 15 second Blackouts or 10 second knockdowns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillian Treehugger

War is hell and as in real life people use every tool to achieve a win.

Except unlike real life, people have a choice about whether or not to play a game - and if a game isn't engaging, if it isn't fun, then people decide that there are better things to do with their time than "play" a game that's more hell than fun. A lot of people are making that very decision right now, because they're tired of beating their heads against balance issues.

When I play Guild Wars, I play to win. When I play Guild Wars, and the way to win is to mash on buttons and hope my opponent didn't bring paper for my rock, then I decide to not play Guild Wars, because it's a waste of my time.

For those who don't know, my money profession has been Water Ele for over a year now, and midline / support casters for virtually my entire GW career. If that matters at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't see how my shadowstep idea is unneeded either? Warriors should not be able to use teleports with any degree of effectiveness. That's something most people agree on (although, curiously, nobody is really using the Death's Charge + Backbreaker build anymore).

I don't recall anyone besides yourself ever being a big proponent of that idea. What's the problem with every profession having access to teleport skills if they are willing to sacrifice their secondary to get them? I don't think that the identity of the class teleporting has ever been a problem.

Indeed, hasn't the only real problem with offensive teleports ever been with Shadow Prison's amazing combination of teleport plus snare?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Maybe I'm not getting it, but what exactly is making BHA such a problem that can't be solved with one copy of Draw?

One copy of Draw, paired with one copy of RC, that follow around the BHA Ranger on any split. That is, if you accept that every build needing a Draw Bitch is an acceptable metagame requirement, which I don't.

Especially when you consider that the midline draw is patently *bad* when you have RC in the build, for all occasions except your RC Monk being dazed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

So what would you do? Its an 15e Elite, requires the monk to stay put to land.

No it doesn't. It requires you to be close to the Monk when you fire it if you want to guarantee a hit.

And yes, he's going to be standing right next to you when he fires it. Because you're trying to play Monk and keep people alive, while he's trying to stand right next to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

What kinda team builds you running with no off draw/weapon warding/aegis/mend touch?

What kinda team builds are you playing against that don't have any shutdown for draw/weapon warding/aegis/mend touch?

You mean your opponent isn't actively disrupting and breaking down your defensive infrastructure when Daze is applied? That Ranger certainly wasn't hunting Aegis between casts of BHA, the ones that did slip through weren't Mirrored, your Eles don't eat Power Leaks, there aren't Diversions landing on your midline, and your Rangers have nothing better to do than run across the battlefield to Mending Touch the backline.

Defensive breakdowns never happen, everyone's skills are always used perfectly to maximum effectiveness, and a harsh shutdown mechanic that requires the rest of your defensive infrastructure to work like clockwork every time is no big deal because it will.

Right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Reguardless nerf the duration and good teams will still force a kill on the off monk

If that is the case the nerf is successful. Good teams applying Daze at the right time to force kills is *exactly* what the condition should be used for. That would be in stark contrast of the current situation, with bad teams parking a Ranger on a Monk to push the Daze button every 15 seconds, forcing the other team to play perfectly to avoid getting killed.

Peace,
-CxE

LuckyGiant · May 31, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Nice changes, would be particularly happy about the following one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Warrior
"Fear Me!": 6A
"Watch Yourself!": 5...20 Armor, 6A
Steady Stance: 10r

Not sure how bad the above is affecting you gvg guys, but TA has gone to complete sh*t. Currently if ya want to win in TA, you must either play "fear me" or "hexway" bringing too many spirits to deal with. Any idiots can run these, bring back the balanced builds that require some skill...

Gillian Treehugger · May 31, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Ensign I stand correct about your profession.

I happen to disagree with most of your suggestions as it will cause both Necros and Rits to be consigned to the graveyard again. All professions should have equal power and in a 1v1 no one should win for the game to be truly balanced there are too many skills and professions for this to happen.

These builds are just part of the game and spike and hex is a valid forms of play and as us necros keep being told ‘adapt’. Adapt your build and play style to suit the game we have, not constantly asking for nerfs because your idea of ideal is not working.

You should think yourself lucky as this game has far more balance then most games. In one Korean PvP mmo I play it is possible for a single mage to completely shutdown a warrior and I mean complete so they have 107% reduction in movement and attack and just have to stand there; take the damage and these debuffs can not be removed.

Adapt or die thats evolution, this game will evolve until GW2 comes out then it starts all over again.

I for one do not like balcend builds they are avarage at best and as balanced thay can not be anything else. they can do lots of things but never excel in any thats there nature. Sure if you have the time and a group of guildies who play at the same time as you and play for hours a day they can be good but us lesser mortals who have work and families can not spend the time to develop this.

i have give up on GvG and all PvP for now because of all this balanced build stuff.

bungusmaximus · May 31, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillian Treehugger

Ensign I stand correct about your profession.

I happen to disagree with most of your suggestions as it will cause both Necros and Rits to be consigned to the graveyard again. All professions should have equal power and in a 1v1 no one should win for the game to be truly balanced there are too many skills and professions for this to happen.

These builds are just part of the game and spike and hex is a valid forms of play and as us necros keep being told ‘adapt’. Adapt your build and play style to suit the game we have, not constantly asking for nerfs because your idea of ideal is not working.

You should think yourself lucky as this game has far more balance then most games. In one Korean PvP mmo I play it is possible for a single mage to completely shutdown a warrior and I mean complete so they have 107% reduction in movement and attack and just have to stand there; take the damage and these debuffs can not be removed.

Adapt or die thats evolution, this game will evolve until GW2 comes out then it starts all over again.

I for one do not like balcend builds they are avarage at best and as balanced thay can not be anything else. they can do lots of things but never excel in any thats there nature. Sure if you have the time and a group of guildies who play at the same time as you and play for hours a day they can be good but us lesser mortals who have work and families can not spend the time to develop this.

i have give up on GvG and all PvP for now because of all this balanced build stuff.

Hmm stuff that makes the game hard isn't too bad, but stuff that makes the game boring is another story. There IS a mage that can completely shutdown a warrior without drawbacks and it's called the necromancer. And even then, you can take convert, or purge sig which are very useful skills even without necro's around, but the necro only has to stand there and win. Hexes being powerful aren't my problem, but people who get it all with by doing nothing shouldn't be in GW imho.

If hex removal would be better you would have to pressure the person carrying the removal to make your own necro's hexes properly stick, that's already an example of more interesting gameplay.

For the casual people GW already has PvP arenas, they're only woefully neglected (hello AB, hello RA) and suffering from all kinds of trouble. The casual player has all the right in the world to play, but do you mind if people don't want them to win halls/be in a top 10 guild?

leeky baby · May 31, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Add Weapon and shout removal !! As Vital weopan is stupid gives all chars 150 health and cant be removed?

How stupid...

This should be added to the mesmer line

leeky

ensoriki · May 31, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Your Wishlist has a flaw in my opinion

I Don't care for shadow prison however

Black Lotus strike is used to help E-manage teh high cost of many Critical Strikes attacks

Unsuspecting strike, Twisting fangs, the cost of the hex you are using.

since most Dagger builds have TF and you NEED a hex for BL if the energy cost lowers a bit it might hurt a build a lot, and there are many.
The damage is already fine leave BL alone.

Shadow Stepping is also fine, Eles have Ride the Lightning anyways

If you want a better shadow step nerf let it be like that ranger skill

50% fail without 3 critical strikes. I think Shadow prison should be around 75% fail without 6 critical strikes.

wuzzman · May 31, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

At this rate R-P-S won't exist, just remove paper so we all can play Rock. Oh and your actually encouraging more melee based teams in the metagame with your wish list by the way.

bungusmaximus · May 31, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Black Lotus strike is used to help E-manage teh high cost of many Critical Strikes attacks

Unsuspecting strike, Twisting fangs, the cost of the hex you are using.

since most Dagger builds have TF and you NEED a hex for BL if the energy cost lowers a bit it might hurt a build a lot, and there are many.
The damage is already fine leave BL alone.

That's a good point, if you want to crack some skull with your sin energy is pretty tight. If you nerf black lotus most people aren't even able to finish one combo. Without black lotus a lot of sin skills would become rather unviable.

wuzzman · May 31, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I got a better wish list.

Ban the Necromancer from pvp
Ban the Paragon from pvp
Ban the Ritualist from pvp
Ban the Assassin from pvp
Ban the Devrish from pvp
Ban all nightfalls elites from pvp

balance done. Now we can all go back to running:

2 shock warriors
1 rc/prot and 1 woh/infuse
1 blind bot/hp ele
1 ward/hp ele
1 Pd mesmer
pick your flavor for the rest ^_^

Riotgear · May 31, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

but anyway, suggesting a skill as a solution brings us back to build wars.

I question that mentality when a skill has quite a bit of use regardless. Granted, there are other ways to do the same thing, like MT, but I often see the "zomgbuildwars" argument brought up even though practically every team runs a few specific skills, i.e. Veil.

If it were something like Mirror, which is of questionable use against anything but Aegis, I'd see the point. But it's Draw, a skill which has always been useful in keeping the RC clean, and serves more purposes than just countering one specific skill. Hell, MT is closer to a "build wars" skill than Draw was, since it was practically added just to keep BA and YAA under control.

EDIT -- To kind of further address that point, RC can not be self-cast, so bringing a skill to keep your RC clean is not exactly "build wars," it's simply covering for a weakness of RC.

Skuld · May 31, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

I got a better wish list.

Ban the Necromancer from pvp
Ban the Paragon from pvp
Ban the Ritualist from pvp
Ban the Assassin from pvp
Ban the Devrish from pvp
Ban all nightfalls elites from pvp

balance done. Now we can all go back to running:

2 shock warriors
1 rc/prot and 1 woh/infuse
1 blind bot/hp ele
1 ward/hp ele
1 Pd mesmer
pick your flavor for the rest ^_^

That is the lazy way out, and aint gonna happen.

The other solution is to try fix what is broken.. oh wait.