Curse

Melody Cross · Jun 02, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

This is a post I’ve been thinking about for a while. It sort of rambles and I know it is long. I hope you can read through it and reply. Anyways, here goes.

The BoonProt was a great build. The old boonprots had a versatility that was unrivaled against many of the new builds that are offered to monks. Respectable healing, solid protection, and strong condition and hex managers. It owned.

But it owned too well. Other builds never saw play because this supermonk was the swiss army knife of healers. Bring it to any situation, fight against any build. It could keep up, keep itself clean and keep going with elite energy managers.

It was active monking at its finest. No prot spell was so long lasting that it didn’t need re-applying regularly. No heal was strong enough to counter heavy pressure alone, to block spikes or stuff like that.

It’s healing and protection was so well balanced—not overpowered really, it was a truly solid balance—that the only weakness these builds had was their energy managers.

And that’s how Anet killed them. Energy managers were chopped up time and again and the ones we gained forced gimmicky boonprots into the game. They weren’t as well rounded as the originals. They weren’t as stable against different types of pressure.

I’m not saying this was a bad decision by Anet. All those elite skills monks have, and none of them were seeing use in PvP. Energy was the king for boonprots, and boonprots were the kings of PvP backlines. Since monk energy managers were—and still are—pretty bad, we were always walking away from our line to get at the good stuff.

2 monk boonprots are static too. They were so strong that you can run two of them and not fear you’ll be outmatched against another build. Its boring to play the same build over and over again and its boring to face it too. Anet nerfed them to let other builds rise up. It gave diversity back to the backline.

So why would we want to get them back?

The Eprod emo runner is pretty much gone thanks to mend touch. Hex runners are better at messing up other teams that try to gank in your base now and full monks with run buffs are better at keeping your NPCs alive. Damage types have continued to disperse over the game to the point that even the boonprot cannot keep up with all these different changes.

Many skills seem directly synergized with how a boonprot worked in the old game. Take hexes. I read a thread where people want a “mending touch” for hexes. Boonprots have one. Two really; something that is able to combat hex teams on itself and on other players. Contemplation of purity works extremely well in a heavy enchantment—protection prayers—build. And its divine favor. So is Divine Boon. Add Deny Hexes to that, and a veil on your partner, and a 2-monk backline can fight hex stacks without bringing Divert hexes and slow how quickly they are applied to improtant players too.

Its not overkill, I don’t think, or really overpowered. All those skills add up to a very expensive hex removal, and a slow casting chain too. But it’s a real reason to bring Deny hexes over 2 veils.

CoP was also an excellent Dazed removal tool, not being a spell. Without it in the metagame, backlines are reverting into a RC fest. You almost HAVE to bring that skill or you’ll lose to any build with conditions. The other option--the only other option--is an off-monk Draw.

In short, backlines are stagnating again. Very little diversity can be done to the class anymore because there is so much that has to be brought to the fight, and only 8 skillslots to bring it with. Overbuffing them makes for long matches and nerfing them too much more would force teams to take more protection—add in more redundant skills—at the sacrifice of damage.

What we need is some other options. A build that can keep up with the new builds, but doesn’t fit any assigned role beyond active prot. What we need is our old swiss army knife back.

So how do we keep 2 boonprot backlines out of the metagame? How do we bring diversity to the game, but still leave a reason to run other types of monks?

We give them a energy managers that are useful for backlines, but useless when doubled. The first energy manager I have in mind is Peace and Harmony. It’s a skill that has always been full of potential for improving backlines but weak for whatever monk carries it. On a boonrot in its current form, its not enough energy for the build to be all it can be.

The solution is kind of simple, I think. Make PnH 2 pips energy and a 10 second recycle with a 5-20 second duration at 16. At 11 it would probably stay on for somewhere around 14-16 seconds depending on it you have a +20% enchantment mod. You can keep that on yourself pretty easy and you can boost your other monk pretty well too. But a third monk would make the skill unstable to keep up at best.

The second is boon signet. The problem with BS is that it relies on heavy preprot to something before can get your energy. Often in PvP, you don’t have time or reason to spam protection spells on a target and then hit the signet. Targets change in your offense, and you need to be able to cast where they go.

So change its requirement. Instead of forcing you to try and maintain enchantments on everyone else to use Boon Sig, make the energy gain based on enchantments you are maintaining on yourself. With DBoon applied, you’ll always be assured of 2 energy, and you can use Boon Signet where you need it…instead of where you need your energy. It is not a great heal though, so both monks spamming it on recycle creates a lull in healing. It might make for a good alternative to PnH, and an alternative gives monks two different types of boonprots to build around.

I can’t think of anything else really. Okay, I guess that’s it. Thank you for reading this.

GGs

Ensign · Jun 02, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I miss boonprots too TBH.

They weren't really overpowered back in the day. The problem was, simply, that the other Monk bars available were really, really bad. In Prophecies only, boonprot was the only flexible Monk bar that you could realistically make. The neccessary tools to do otherwise simply didn't exist until Factions.

In Factions Monks gained Gift of Health. That really enabled people to start playing Monks other than boonprots, since it allowed a Monk to do what was most important in high end play - use timely prot effects - without completely sacrificing healing potential. It was good enough, in combination with Blessed Light, that by the time the Factions Championship came around the BLight/Gift of Health Monk was slightly more popular than the EDrain Booner in 2-Monk Backlines.

Then they hammered the Booner out of existance for reasons I don't think I'll ever really understand. Especially in light of Nightfall, which for the first time added some really attractive Monk elites to the game.

The Gift of Health core of the Blessed Light Monk remained intact, and a variety of elites started being run on it - Divert Hexes, Zealous Benediction, Restore Condition, Shield of Deflection. The big boost from Nightfall was from LoD, which introduced the other main archtype. LoD Monks with a couple situational spot heals and a bunch of Prot are now a staple Monk bar. With all of those powerful, flexible monk options available, I'm not sure that the old Boonprots would be terribly attractive. If they were though, they certainly wouldn't eclipse any of the established characters, and would only serve to make the Monk metagame a little less stagnant.

On your suggestions, I think you're overthinking the effectiveness of boonprots. Right before the two hammer nerfs came in (those being the thorough gutting of EDrain and Mantra of Recall, and slamming Divine Boon with -10 health per energy) most competitive teams were running two BLight Monks, having abandoned Booners largely on merit. The nerfs were greeted with 'why is Arena.net nerfing something obsolete? Oh well.' I think you could reverse those two changes and Boonprots would be a marginal Monk that would see spot play, no more.

Peace,
-CxE

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jun 02, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Boon is/was perfectly balanced after the -10ish health per heal nerf and the 10s recharge. I say rebuff things like MoR and edrain, and it's still balanced, especially with more diversity due to LoD and a few other things. It would definitely be a good idea IMO to increase diversity.

Saphatorael · Jun 02, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

The last 'fix' was a bit too much. They lowered the energy gained from Mantra of Recall AND lowered the healing bonus of Divine Boon... I would've agreed with only one of those changes, but both was just overkill. The only place I'd still run it nowadays is in RA (been using Mo/Rt with Offering of Spirit + Bloodsong a couple of times, when I'm bored... it's amazingly effective, but then again... it's RA), wouldn't mind a revert of either skill, preferably Mantra of Recall/Energy Drain

elektra_lucia · Jun 02, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

buff it.

all the inspiration skills included.

+ oob.

Melody Cross · Jun 02, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

On your suggestions, I think you're overthinking the effectiveness of boonprots. Right before the two hammer nerfs came in (those being the thorough gutting of EDrain and Mantra of Recall, and slamming Divine Boon with -10 health per energy) most competitive teams were running two BLight Monks, having abandoned Booners largely on merit. The nerfs were greeted with 'why is Arena.net nerfing something obsolete? Oh well.' I think you could reverse those two changes and Boonprots would be a marginal Monk that would see spot play, no more.

Peace,
-CxE

Thank you very much for replying. Thats all I really want of the build myself. Spot play, like you say, in backline builds that are designed to support and be supported by it. I'd never say a 2 BProt backline can outpower an RC/LoD against a condition team. But it could survive against a condition team where an LoD/Divert team would die. An LoD with some PnH support would have fewer energy issues when he had to double infuse huge spikes. And, with the right use of skills, good timing and a little luck, Deny hexes with a decent DF hybrid bar is a good non-elite answer to hex stacks. Well, a better one than we have atm.

Most of all, its something old doing something new. It gives monks a build that many of us really loved to play and shows some of the new players why the old ones miss it.

For buffing the old energy managers...I don't really see any harm if bProts were already on the way out like Ensign says. They're elite for a reason and the supply they give is considerably less than what you would think an elite will give.

Thanks for the replies everybody.

GGs

LifesRestorer · Jun 03, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

indeed, the changes to boon prots completely blew them out of the water.

not only did the elites get nerfed, but even the little skills such as inspired hex, which supplied a 5 energy boost was also taken out of the equation.
on top of that, the overall healing of boon was lowered, and the recharge increased.

after this, for a short while teams began to take skills such as NR and tranq to further counter the boon prot. already weakened from the changes to their energy management, the punch from the extra energy loss from NR and the long casting time of guardian, the boon prot ceased to be present in GvG play.

I would really love the boon prot to come back. as the OP stated, it was taken out to give other skills a chance. I think the wheel has finally took it's full spin and we are back to the point where backlines have taken a halt in their changes. It's time to get the wheel spinning again. It's time to bring back the boon prot...

wuzzman · Jun 03, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

having the boon/prot...what is a more complete monk? It made people carry Nr AND tranq + enchant removal. It would be interesting in today's meta if the boon/prot was rebuffed into the glory days.

Blame the Monks · Jun 03, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

RC is mandantory.
A LoD type skill is mandantory.

Where does a boon prot fit into that? Boon prots depended on having a powered HP, and I don't think you can fit that into most teams given the reality of needing your runner to heal NPCs and fight in small teams. Boon prots would still be poor against hexes, couldn't remove condis fast enough to compete with cripslash and BA type spam, and wouldn't work as well in a meta where so much of the damage is small packet and degen.

I loved boon prots and would like to see them back as well, but I think the old template is dead and can't be revived, except as a niche role. Boon prots died a slow death by powercreep and then a belated nerf by Izzy.

Apok Omen · Jun 03, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

To answer the question of why Boonies were nerfed, it was not because they were overpowered. It was because Anet was bored of them. Only reason they waited till Factions to nerf them was for the introduction of BL.

Turbobusa · Jun 03, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

They were popular when disenchanting was not really.
I wouldn't rely on something the might get stripped just after i re-apply it.
As someone said, the aren't as effective as you think, heavy hexes are tough to deal with with a Bprot, and pressure overwhelm them.

I wouldn't run a Bprot nowadays

bathazard · Jun 03, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

They were popular when disenchanting was not really.
I wouldn't rely on something the might get stripped just after i re-apply it.
As someone said, the aren't as effective as you think, heavy hexes are tough to deal with with a Bprot, and pressure overwhelm them.

I wouldn't run a Bprot nowadays

what he says is very true if you bring boon monks back the amout of enchanment strippers out there would own them. grenth = dead the whole build runs of the enchants. nowdays when you have enchant strippers your stuffed. if Anet had say a RA for every type of Guild Wars. eg: prophecies areas, factions areas, nightfall areas, universal areas. the single prof areas would have no nerf like with boon and stuff but universal would. so say you wanted to play like the old days then you could... with the area idea i mean that when you make a new charecter you get to choose what prof in this case also the area you would have the one you chose and the universal one... (the universal one would be just called Random areas) if you belive in this please say. i miss the old days when illusanry mesmers owned and rangers didnt kill you in 3 hits with conditions... thanks signed... Bathazards Princess.

LifesRestorer · Jun 03, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Where does a boon prot fit into that? Boon prots depended on having a powered HP, and I don't think you can fit that into most teams given the reality of needing your runner to heal NPCs and fight in small teams. Boon prots would still be poor against hexes, couldn't remove condis fast enough to compete with cripslash and BA type spam

The boon prot has amazing potential in hex removal. CoP to remove off themselves, deny hexes to remove off others. considering that a boon prot will have around 4 DF skills, (maybe 5 if they buff PnH in the OP's way)
he will easily be able to remove hex stacks.
If the boon prot gets dazed, CoP is his friend. the spammability of mend condition is ok, which also provides a big heal at the same time combined with the use of condition removal in the midline and frontline (mending touch, extinguish if the meta changes to it) should be more than enough to keep a team clean.

Enchant stripping may be a problem, but this shouldnt stop them from being a very viable character in the GvG format, as they once were. Every monk type has it's weakness, and in the boonprot, that's the power of enchant stripping. Who cares. Buff them. If they don't work, then whats the need to complain? Something is actually broken this time, you might as well TRY to fix it.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 03, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I really don't see the point of buffing them also, as they wouldn't see that much use. Another reason bprots were used so often is that they were self-sufficient, they could do a little of everything, which made them easy to split up. This was really needed in a meta where 4-4 splits were extremely common, but you don't see that anymore. Now, most teams keep their monks together and split off self-sufficient characters with runner support.

And as someone else said, boonprots really required the use of 1 or 2 eprod powered HPs to keep them going. Their emanagement was fragile enough even in their heyday that without the HP to mop up a ton of the damage, they would collapse under pressure extremely quickly. They're amazing templates for self-survivability and for combating spikes and unloading warriors, but against spread out hexes/conditions or the kinds of melee builds that have 2 warriors and 2 paragons and a BA ranger spreading out damage across the team they fail without the HP. And running one with and LoD would mean giving up RC, which is really needed against the metagame of mass doubled conditions.

Melody Cross · Jun 03, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

RC is mandantory.
A LoD type skill is mandantory.

Where does a boon prot fit into that? Boon prots depended on having a powered HP, and I don't think you can fit that into most teams given the reality of needing your runner to heal NPCs and fight in small teams. Boon prots would still be poor against hexes, couldn't remove condis fast enough to compete with cripslash and BA type spam, and wouldn't work as well in a meta where so much of the damage is small packet and degen.

I loved boon prots and would like to see them back as well, but I think the old template is dead and can't be revived, except as a niche role. Boon prots died a slow death by powercreep and then a belated nerf by Izzy.

This is the stagnation of backlines to which I am referring. Remember, during their heyday divine boon was "manditory" too. That was not a good thing and I feel the chief reason why Anet nerfed them...or continued to nerf them long after other builds were gaining popularity.

I don't want them to nerf RC or LoD. I really don't. But before they decide they are bored with these two elites, I'd like to see Anet try giving us some more options. Options are good. Nerfing what we have and buffing something else is...its kinda forcing us to play the builds they want to see. I know its their game, but I'd like to be able to play it the way I want to, not the way they think I should this month

As for where they fit, I think that is obvious. Somewhere in the middle. Not the LoD, but supporting it. Not the RC, but supplanting it when the metagame is half condi/half hexes.

besides, re-introducing energy managers to the game opens up a lot of builds. Holy haste with PnH still gives some really great hex removal, but it also lets a healing monk go a little crazier with dwaynas kiss.

I don't disagree that enchant strips hurt BProts. Especially in their current form. But I think you give gift of health and LoD too much credit too. I don't know about everyone else, but when I go active prot, I tend to fill my bar with an awful lot of enchants.

The mesmer may get my first boon, but not my second. He may strip my energy manager, but it will be back pretty soon. The enchant strips supply a window of time during which the other team can pressure harder against less healing when facing a BProt. And I don't think seeing Grenth dervs back in the game is a bad thing really. Lots of dervs liked the build, and having something that is a solid counter to your build is, well, a normal occurrence for monks imo...

I'd be more worried that powerblock would catch my guardian or PnH than I would an enchant strip will take it from me. I deal with strips all the time. A ranged blackout with 2 one second skills on my bar is a scary thought.

GGs

lacasner · Jun 03, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

/signed, plz return the boon prot, this game needs some change

Dzan · Jun 03, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Buffing Boon prot would affect the TA metagame much, much more than the GVG metagame.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 03, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

To be honest, I don't think it's very relevant to GvG right now. Even if boon prots were restored to their former power, I don't see them becoming popular in most builds.

In the boon prot days, many of the current offenses were weaker, and you could rely on the midline to handle party healing while the monks saved spikes and handled single-target pressure. These days, backlines are very elite-centric - you need that LoD so you don't blow up to degen/AoE, you need that RC so you don't get rocked by the various condition stacking tools. If you don't take those, you're looking at a backline that going to break almost immediately to certain kinds of pressure, and that's going to lose you a lot of games.

It's only in oddball builds with multiple monks or unusual off-monk support (like QQ's 4-thumper 4-monk build) that you can really start mixing up the elites. It's that kind of build where a boon prot might become viable, but even then, the GoH-prot bar is stiff competition with all kinds of good elites and variations available.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jun 04, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Buffing Boon prot would affect the TA metagame much, much more than the GVG metagame.

Lol, since when did anyone give a crap about TA balance? Take a look at fear me spam -_- .. stop making me QQ Anet.

also WTB TA ladder, stop putting everything in Hero Battles >_<

And to put a little to the topic, I think putting Boon prots back is a good thing, even if they dont become mainstream as they used to be. Variation is win.

Melody Cross · Jun 04, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I really don't see the point of buffing them also, as they wouldn't see that much use. Another reason bprots were used so often is that they were self-sufficient, they could do a little of everything, which made them easy to split up. This was really needed in a meta where 4-4 splits were extremely common, but you don't see that anymore. Now, most teams keep their monks together and split off self-sufficient characters with runner support.

And as someone else said, boonprots really required the use of 1 or 2 eprod powered HPs to keep them going. Their emanagement was fragile enough even in their heyday that without the HP to mop up a ton of the damage, they would collapse under pressure extremely quickly. They're amazing templates for self-survivability and for combating spikes and unloading warriors, but against spread out hexes/conditions or the kinds of melee builds that have 2 warriors and 2 paragons and a BA ranger spreading out damage across the team they fail without the HP. And running one with and LoD would mean giving up RC, which is really needed against the metagame of mass doubled conditions.

i think we don't see 4-4 splits because the monks we use today are considerably less self sufficient than they used to be. Barring a ZB, or SoD build, most monks are geared to heal others. Lets look at our stable backline again. RC has Gift of health on it 99 times out of 100. its most powerful heal is not self targeting, and neither is its elite. LoD is wasted when split 4-4. Its only healing half the team then, and teams are built with the idea that it will hit most of them most of the time.

I think this makes a very useful pointfor why Bprots would be welcomed back into the game. More monk options means more tactical options too. Thank you for pointing it out.

I also agree that the BProt would have an impact on TA. But I don't think another self sufficient monk would turn TA or RA upside down. or AB or HA or wherever you like to play. We have self sufficient monks now. ZB is a spiking self heal for cheap energy when used in the right build. SoD is extremely solid against the melee heavy teams RA prefers. And Bonders have some wicked energy managment to begin with. why waste their elite on more?

But why run a ZB bonder when you feel like running a BProt today either? If they were actually buffed that is.

I really don't want to break anything here. I just want more options in what I choose to play and how. Don't we all?

Thanks for the comments

GGs