Curse

TheOneMephisto · May 19, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Alright, you're right saying that it could raise other issues if all there was is 4v4 HvH when you think of things like mass Recall. It WOULD get quite lame.

So with your idea, do you want to make all games a separate thing or a sequence (conseq wins, etc.)?

I think that a sequence alternating 1 random TA map then 1 random HvH map could be pretty good, and you could increase the reward as you win conseq maps (maybe not every map, but every few wins). Mostly it's because it has less 'chance factor' if you force people playing both than people coming in with more of a TA setup or some with more of a HvH setup and getting lucky/unlucky with their game type draw. There could also be some kind of matching system to also take into account your conseq wins along with your rating, dunno.

But i wouldn't add any new maps really, first because it's time consuming to make/balance them, and second because it's just 4 people and you can't fit that much utility on 4 people while still keeping any kind of build variety. But alternating random TA map with random HvH map could make for an interesting system that could be worthy of a ladder.

Well, TBH, how I envision the perfect setup would be with less emphasis on consecutives. For regular rated matches sure you could get glad points every 10 wins and just have random maps, but no advantage ratings-wise for consecs.

For the tournaments I would like to see the same thing as HvH, but possibly give out glads based on placing. I would really prefer the system to work more like GvG or HvH, where regular ladder matches don't matter nearly as much as the tournament play.

So basically, the only purpose of consecs would be for glads, but each match would be treated separately for other purposes.

Patccmoi · May 19, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, TBH, how I envision the perfect setup would be with less emphasis on consecutives. For regular rated matches sure you could get glad points every 10 wins and just have random maps, but no advantage ratings-wise for consecs.

For the tournaments I would like to see the same thing as HvH, but possibly give out glads based on placing. I would really prefer the system to work more like GvG or HvH, where regular ladder matches don't matter nearly as much as the tournament play.

So basically, the only purpose of consecs would be for glads, but each match would be treated separately for other purposes.

Ok, but will teams know in advance what map they're going to play?

If so, then if it's a standard TA map honestly it's a lot of buildwars (some builds you'll simply won't have what's required to beat them and there is absolutely no tactics you can do since TA doesn't have really any tactical depth out of standard combat strategy). In fact you add the problems of both pure TA and pure HvH as teams will simply have 2 different builds, one for each.

If not, then i think there's a lot of randomness involved as you can get totally different objectives without knowing in advance what it is and a game can pretty much be decided because team A has a build better fitting for objective X than team B. For example you could have a team that's designed purely for straight 4v4 fight ala TA hoping they'll be able to handle HvH if it comes but pretty much destroying a team that is built to try to take into account both if they end up in a standard TA map.

I mean, honestly one way or another i don't really see how it's going to work well. Maybe it would, but i'm not convinced. If you know that you'll actually play BOTH game types with the same build, then build abuse is less likely.

TheOneMephisto · May 20, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Ok, but will teams know in advance what map they're going to play?

If so, then if it's a standard TA map honestly it's a lot of buildwars (some builds you'll simply won't have what's required to beat them and there is absolutely no tactics you can do since TA doesn't have really any tactical depth out of standard combat strategy). In fact you add the problems of both pure TA and pure HvH as teams will simply have 2 different builds, one for each.

If not, then i think there's a lot of randomness involved as you can get totally different objectives without knowing in advance what it is and a game can pretty much be decided because team A has a build better fitting for objective X than team B. For example you could have a team that's designed purely for straight 4v4 fight ala TA hoping they'll be able to handle HvH if it comes but pretty much destroying a team that is built to try to take into account both if they end up in a standard TA map.

I mean, honestly one way or another i don't really see how it's going to work well. Maybe it would, but i'm not convinced. If you know that you'll actually play BOTH game types with the same build, then build abuse is less likely.

Well, with tourneys you can't switch builds in between games, so as long as there are equal numbers of each type I can't see that becoming a problem. You're still going to be playing that one build for 6ish games, and if you manage to get 6 of one type in a row then that's ridiculous luck.

Though I guess that it couldn't hurt to implement something making sure that each team plays on an equal number of each type.

LuckyGiant · May 20, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

there is absolutely no tactics you can do since TA doesn't have really any tactical depth out of standard combat strategy

Wow, I don't want this thread to turn into an arguement, because I like the idea...but at least play TA for a while competitively before you speak. (maybe you don't mean it quite how I'm interpreting)

On the topic, TA should have limited game types mainly deathmatch with a couple of variation maps (priest and kill count, although I hate this one

) because as you said 32 skills is too limited to be able to cover to many variations. Its going to be pointless with too many game types because there will be no variation in builds among teams.

Maps should stay random and cycled to prevent a boring gimmick based meta where you play continuously on your one map with your unbeatable build for that map. Because as a team with 32 skills map based gimmicks would have a more effective success rate due to the lack of counters to such builds on a certain map

EDIT: Couple more things I just thought of, the issue of RA teams going to TA would have to be cut for obvious reasons. Also quite often in a streak you may fight the same team more than once. I've hit the same team 4 times within 12 wins. It might be assumed that this problem would fix itself though as a heap more people should be involved if a ladder starts up, so the same restriction that is imposed on gvg could be applied.

Patccmoi · May 20, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyGiant

Wow, I don't want this thread to turn into an arguement, because I like the idea...but at least play TA for a while competitively before you speak. (maybe you don't mean it quite how I'm interpreting)

All i mean is that in TA you have no tactical options. The only way you can win is by killing the other 4. That's the one and single objective with 1 and only way to accomplish it (kill them in straight fight). Sure you there is combat tactics, who to target first, who to shutdown, timing spikes, etc. but that's what i say when i say standard combat strategy. But if there's a build your setup cannot handle, well that's it. There won't be splits, there won't be ganks, there won't be the option of capping shrines instead of fighting head on, etc.. You can't handle it given similar player skill. I played a lot of TA, often enough trying weird setup that would beat up some really good teams easily simply because they had no way to counter it even if they might've beat us in a more standard fight. Some teams like 3-4 hexers for example that are well designed can prove extremely hard to handle without basically an anti-build (went on some loooong streaks playing that). And when you might face 3 hexers, mass condition and pure physical pressure (say 2 Steady Stance war + Expel Hexes Paragon) back to back, it's very hard to have a build that will handle the 3 properly, and if there might be one, there won't be many for sure. And the lack of any option out of straight fight means that if you have a build disadvantage you need to be significantly better than the other team to have any kind of chance. This doesn't lead to a very fun ladder imo. Which is why i think that maps with more tactical depth (and HvH has that with multi-objectives and multiple ways to win) are required, at least as part of it.

lucky k · May 21, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Kind of hard to follow your idea cuase there is a lot of info but YES! PLEASE ADD A LADDER TO TA

and I also agree with changing the maps/victory conditions.

Something like taking exact copy of HVH and sending that to TA except with no Ai or Heros.

So YES I totally agree

Ung · May 24, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Hello.

Realization of this idea IS A MUST for ANet. HvH can not be considered as PvP. ATS for HvH is a mistake.

ATS for TA!

/signed 1000 times

P.S. Sorry for my English.

Best Regards,
Ung

Kool Pajamas · May 24, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

I agree, TA needs a ladder. New map types are also desperately needed. I dont have a ton of TA experience but when I normally go in its mostly 1 anti caster (usually mes), 1 anti melee (usually necro), 1 healer, 1 forward damage. Obviously there are more that exist but in general that seems to be the most popular. New objectives would diversify it up a bit better. Making it more popular would also help this problem because you wont be fighting the same people over and over.

red orc · May 27, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Adding a ladder to TA is a good idea.
Keep the ramk personal and the gain according to the goup sum of ranking.
That is calculate the sum of the winning group rank Vs the sum of the loosing group rank to calculate the added rating (also have higher k than in current gvg otherwise the rank difference has no meaning). Add or reduce each player rank according to the outcome of the game.
Please dont turn TA to a running arena such as HvH. Also keep the DP.

person a · Jun 23, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

a ladder is needed in ta. something give it some rewards other then just faction and glad points, a ladder would do just that.
new maps would be welcome, although i am a little skeptical on new game objectives. if done properly they could be loads of fun, but i don't want to go into ta prepared to have to run around and capture shrins like a hero battle. besides, a-net won't put that kind of time into ta anyway, they have more important things to worry about (hero battles...). so instead of asking for a huge 6 month promotion, all i want is for a-net to put out a ta ladder. would that be so hard?

Orange Milk · Jul 05, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Heros killed off team play in PvE, no they are dumbing up PvP too.

HvH is a stupid place.

I would love to see new maps for TA and add atleast one new style of game, leave the ones that are there now in. I love TA I hate Heros. TA is lost now due to those bastards and ANet loves that they created them and will do anything for them. Look how long it took to get them semi out of HA.

TheYellowKid · Jul 19, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

imo leave ta how it is, id hate to have to cap things in ta, ta is kill or be killed, nice and simple imo. But me and guildies have been talking about ladders (or something similar) for a long period and it would be nice, HA has emotes and if you win halls everyone knows you did, for those who like TA you get nothing besides glads (that can be farmed in ra - seperate note: should have been two seperate tracks imo). I would love to see where me and my guild is ranked against others and would be nice to have some challenge for a change, im sure a ladder would bring more competition, imo we shouldnt be getting 60 wins in a row...

B E A S T · Jul 19, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

as most of the teams you fight are crap because TA is almost deserted.

As much as I like the ideas stated in this thread, this comment made me chuckle.

Yesterday me and some other guildies made a TA build, got on vent, and decided we would be able to get some glad points fairly easily. What ended up happening is we faced [vD] three times [QQ] twice and [MOJO] once. In fact, most of the teams in TA are extremely good, even some of the PuG groups.

TA is not deserted in any way. There is only one American District, but there are no long waits and it is fairly easy to find a semi-decent PuG. However, if your ideas were implemented and a lot more people started to come to TA, I dont think we would have faced guilds like [vD] [QQ] and [MOJO] six times

urania · Jul 20, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

that QQ is not the American QQ.

and vD only goes to TA when they cant do gvg - either they lag like hell or dont have enough ppl to do 8vs8. (as a side note, T grinded his glad rank in RA purely)

so consider yourself just unlucky for having them met so often in 1 day.