Curse

DreamWind · Jul 06, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I'm tempted to point by point put down everything at the moment, but I'll stick with the topic at hand and stop arguing. Ok?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The reasons are here: Now RA is a not RA but LA or SA, Leavers or Synchers arena. Leaving is not the problem. It's leaving before the timer starts which is. So a temp ban is necessary.

I don't agree with any action. I don't think the problem is NEARLY big enough to justify any action. Honestly, I never considered it an issue or even thought about it after 2 years of playing RA until some people posted it on forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

RA which was okay, even with scrubs, until glad title came. RA which was free of grind has fallen into the same perversity than HA.

Grind is not what killed HA. Anet screwing with it killed HA. And I'm willing to bet that the number of RA players has increased dramatically since the inception of glad points and the downfall of HA. We have no way to confirm that, but I would put any amount of money on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

How can you hope refresh PvP blood with such selfish farming behavior? I trust Anet, but I know too much the selfish community (from which you are a perfect representant).

How can you hope to refresh PvP blood by threatening them with bans? Besides...RA is not what is going to refresh PvP blood. There is way too many suggestions in PvP forums for that. As I said...RA was designed for people as a "do whatever you want" easy entry type of PvP.

For reference, I rarely leave before the timer starts. As I said, I usually play monk and rarely have leavers. I just think changing the arena or threatening bans for an extremely minor problem is ridiculous. There are FAR greater changes Guild Wars needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

That's why many people leave actually. They are replaced by people fine with grind, but that's not why I primarily bought the game.

I don't really consider glad points grind. In reality, the title is worthless because of the zaishen bug that allowed people to farm the title ages ago. As I said, my main point of playing RA is to have fun PvP with minimal time and preparation. Losing is not fun to me, so I will do what it takes to win, even in a "have fun" arena.

Also, I can say with full confidence that RA grind is not what made most PvP players leave. You can read more on the subject on any decent PvP forum...no use discussing it here.

lacasner · Jul 06, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Me too but I don't have the rudeness to leave before the timer starts and give it a try.

If your looking on the internet for manners, then just..wow.

Quote:

Situation: You've a monk , a sin, a ranger and you're the warrior. Opponents are a monk, a blindbot ele and two sins. Blindbot blinds you then switch to the monk. Sins pound your monk. You have no cond removal. Then you loose. Because your monk won't be able to remove your blind as he is busy protecting himself. The ele shut down every offense, and you couldn't counter it. THat's the same for a necro hexing you, a healing signet allows you to have limited DPS and to build adre while healing constantly yourself to avoid death.

then ur team just got outmatched?? plus, for having no support char for monk, this team was unlikely gonna get 10 anyway.

Quote:

You're fine with it because you're a selfish leaver.

Who am I inconviencing by leaving? The people who have noob builds and suck will continue to do so, regardless if I'm on their team or not. The people who are serious about winning will leave as well as me.

Shendaar · Jul 06, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Name calling don't make a point.

Oh really?

Quote:

...13 yrs old Leeroy...

Quote:

...then you're a scrub...

Quote:

...liar...

Quote:

...without griefers and selfish 12 yrs old farmers...

Want me to quote more buddy? Maybe you should read your own posts first. I'm still waiting for you to refute my last arguments btw ... And I do carry Healing Signet all the time.

TheHaxor · Jul 06, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I fail to see how you can recognize a Meteor Shower NEcro before the timer starts. Seriously. Maybe you have some HxxxoR to scan other's build, uh?
Again, most people here don't care about you leaving after the first match if you are with complete morons. Leaving before the timer starts, without any means to judge your teammates builds, and dooming the team, is selfish and stupid.
If you leave at the end of the match, your newb friends will have a replacement. If you leave before, you force them to loose, to disband. Some teams actually win their first match very easily because of the offense and the skill play of the teamates, then one (gentle) people leave cause he has no self heal, maybe a monk, who knows?

First of all, read my post again. Never once did I say I leave before the timer starts, you just assumed it. I do, if I recognize some idiot I was just paired with. I leave when I get a 4 warrior team, because that will never get a glad. I leave when I get a 3 monk team, because that usually won't win (depends on the fourth person, even so it would be a long and painful glad point). Even if I get a monk, see him wielding a hammer, putting up strength of honor, I will leave. If I see a warrior put up mending I leave. I do not condone stupid behavior, and will not glorify it by helping the player win.

If you want something to blame about RA leavers, blame Guild Wars. Early on we are taught to basically be noobs. I mean, look at the skills you get near the beginning of the game in Prophesies. They are so bad. I mean, look how good mending is in the early game. People run mending thinking they are invincible, not realizing there is a thing called enchantment removal (which doesn't come into play until much later).

If something works well for a new player in PvE, why not try it in PvP, right? The way I see it is the only way for that player to learn why the skills they are brining are bad is to show them tough love. If people keep leaving on that player, eventually they will realize they need to make a change. Maybe they will decide to search why people are leaving on them. Maybe they start to do a little research on effective skills for their class to use, and how to PvP in general. In this case, the fact that people left on them is beneficial because it made them a better player.

I see an argument by the other side, which is, "why not just tell them why what they are doing is wrong." You can't just tell a player how to play correctly. They will never understand, and they usually won't care. They have to learn all the elements for themselves. You can't hold a person's hand the entire way. They won't learn anything, because the next time they run into a problem they will just go to someone else to solve it for them. You can give them pointers, but the fact is you can't teach them how to play. They have to do that for themselves.

glountz · Jul 06, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

then ur team just got outmatched?? plus, for having no support char for monk, this team was unlikely gonna get 10 anyway.

Quote cleverly, or don't quote. I was explaining a situation where cond removal on a warrior (generally mending touch) has its importance and lead to victory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Who am I inconviencing by leaving? The people who have noob builds and suck will continue to do so, regardless if I'm on their team or not. The people who are serious about winning will leave as well as me.

Quote cleverly, or don't quote. I will quote myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Already answered in this thread, learn to read. Wait til the end of the first match before leaving. If you do not, you deserve a temp ban.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

I don't care about you pursuing Glads title in RA. That's fine. Okay. It's clear for you? What I don't agree is quitting before the match ends. Now it's clear in your head? uh?

I would quote pages and pages ago but you don't seem to bother to read the whole thread. Leaving is fine. At the end of the timer. Resigning is fine too. Leaving at the start because you missed your synch or because you cannot win without a monk is selfish and deserve punishment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

the girl raping argument. First he compared me to a criminal and now we are rapist. Talk about failing at arguing.

You can't be helped. Your system of arguing is flawed and I gave you a real life case where such flawed arguing leads to very bigger issues. Leaving screw other's fun in time, and such is selfish as you think only of your benefit without caring about consequences on others. That's all. You refuse this evidence. The leaving is justified for you because you gain benefit from it and gain none if you don't leave. I try to explain to you that it is selfish because 3 other people loose their benefit. You justify a time gain only by the one benefit you gain from leaving. Exactly as thief who rob: "but I needed this money...". Just like a robber, you don't even want to consider the prejudice you do to others. Because it doesn't matter for you and you are not concerned. That is considered selfish. Must I really explain why? Do you understand now? Yes that's an online game without any consequences in real life. That doesn't mean that any actions you do have no consequences. Or, if it were the case, you could justify scam, leeching, and even botting. After all, what's wrong with botting? People have the right to earn money the fast way, no? That is not hurting other players uh? And it's a game after all, so... Scamming is just virtual pixels uh? That's not real, so scamming does not matter...
Do you even understand why Anet did forbid scamming?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

Want me to quote more buddy? Maybe you should read your own posts first. I'm still waiting for you to refute my last arguments btw ... And I do carry Healing Signet all the time.

Quoted out of context and not specifically directed to you. No matter.
I answered your arguments. They boil down to this:" no monks = sure defeat". I said and many said that is not true. And even if that is true (which is not) I said that leaving for that purpose before the end the match is selfish and should be punished.
You can leave or resign if you want, just wait 1:30 the match finishes so nobody have their fight screwed . Is this a hard concept to catch? Apparently yes. That's why this game must either kill the incentive to leave, or punish those who do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

For reference, I rarely leave before the timer starts. As I said, I usually play monk and rarely have leavers. I just think changing the arena or threatening bans for an extremely minor problem is ridiculous. There are FAR greater changes Guild Wars needs.

I kinda agree with you. But I think than RA is completely symptomatic of GW's state actually. A very selfish and rotten community. RA is the beginning of PvP. The starting ground. I have enough exclusive PVEers in my guild who despise PvP upon their experience in RA and HA. Even in my guild, which is not geared exclusively toward either mode, I feel this abyss between the PvP bulk group and the others PVEers that don't even TRY a GvG so bad their experiences were with PvP.
When I RA, I have also my fair share of mending wammos. And then I say to concentrate on damage and side spells that let them do their damage. And I leave only at the end of the match.

lacasner · Jul 06, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You can't be helped.

The irony is sickening.

Quote:

They boil down to this:" no monks = sure defeat". I said and many said that is not true. And even if that is true I said that leaving for that purpose before the end the match is selfish and should be punished.

Literalism is ftl, which is why your pointless rambling fails.

Quote:

When I RA, I have also my fair share of mending wammos. And then I say to concentrate on damage and side spells that let them do their damage. And I leave only at the end of the match.

And you can continue to do that, and I'll do what I want to do. Whats the problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Who am I inconviencing by leaving? The people who have noob builds and suck will continue to do so, regardless if I'm on their team or not. The people who are serious about winning will leave as well as me.

Your response=

Quote:

Quote cleverly, or don't quote. I will quote myself.

And you responded to my post how?

Shendaar · Jul 06, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You can leave or resign if you want, just wait 1:30 the match finishes so nobody have their fight screwed . Is this a hard concept to catch? Apparently not. That's why this game must either kill the incentive to leave, or punish those who do.

If I leave, that is because the fight is already screwed from the start. Just by the professions, I can tell in seconds whether we stand a chance or not. I leave when I know failure is inevitable, not when I don't see a Mo/X ... It just so happen that most group without a Mo are doomed to fail at one point or another(so are the groups with monks, but at least you know you have a reasonable chance to accomplish something). We're talking pure facts here.

I'm not just after the glad points ... If I can stick with the team when we get to TA, I will. I want to win first and foremost, but to get a glad point, I need the winning to happen, which is why I don't stick to crippled teams. How is that hard to understand for you? PvP is a competitive environment, I PvP to Win and this is how I make my fun. It's as simple as that.

I lose if I stay and I lose if I leave, but at least I save myself(as well as the other team) a few seconds/minutes by taking the shortcut. Want to do it the long way? Go ahead, you can still do it even if your party is gone. You can also spam "1v1 plzz" if it makes you happy.

I'm just looking for a fair fight, like all the others.

grikdog · Jul 06, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by psycore

I reckon for any PvP quitter they should be burned by having either their title track, balth faction or alliance faction deducted.

I love this idea. And its not overly harsh in case someone unexpectedly goes AFK. I mean hitting them up for faction isnt like loosing an arm. I suppose they need some faction to begin with though since it doesnt go negative.

And for those people who seem to think they can predict the future and "know right away if they are going to lose... some of the best fought matches are where you come from behind or actually use some thought to win instead of running back to you mothers skirt at the first trouble. You dont improve your skill if you only have opponents you can walk over.

elk · Jul 06, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Well due to the size of this thread, I haven't read through all the responses to see if this was posted.

This is random. The frequency in which ppl drop has definitely gone through the roof so it can't all be circumstantial but really what are you expecting every time you enter? If you want consistency or a team you can count on than try Teams or another PvP format. As many have stated, you get poor combinations of players (4 monks) or griefers/joke builds or legit disconnects, improper build skills/stats/equip, RL, someone pre-casts mending or a multitude of other reasons that can cause a drop and forcing people to stay or penalizing folks that leave completely goes against what "random" is.

Now for the most part, I typically stick out the first round just to see what I've been paired up with. This includes everyone on the team dropping (at which point I let the other team know I'm handing out some free faction and run in to get pwnd). The reason I do it is simple. You have little to no idea of what the other 3 are capable of. If; after the first round, the team chomps, I'll drop to get another match (in which I'm replaced assuming they proceed). I'd say some of the most satisfying wins come from groups that don't look like they should win (the group has overwhelming offense or some of the players are extremely good/play well as a team or the skill combinations between players sync really well etc. I recently had a good glad point from a team who had no "healing" and a R/Rt who manipulated frozen soil w/ rupture soul really well).

A flip side to the coin is that it's actually improved the quality of play in random. I find that better/ more experienced players are entering to farm glad points and that in it self can rub off on other players (play style, build use, team play etc.). That and better team combinations are more likely. I find that if both teams have stayed through the initial loading, than it's a good chance that they both have a Mo or some form of mitigation. The fights tend to be better or more exciting/satisfying and that is alot to ask of random on a good day.

I think it comes down to how you look at it. If you're getting frustrated over the 10sec-2min wait to get a team or you've been having poor streaks or you loose sight of the fact that it's "random", than maybe it's time for a little break and try again later.

elk

Shendaar · Jul 06, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by grikdog

And for those people who seem to think they can predict the future and "know right away if they are going to lose... some of the best fought matches are where you come from behind or actually use some thought to win instead of running back to you mothers skirt at the first trouble. You dont improve your skill if you only have opponents you can walk over.

You can only have so much counter in a 4 man team. When you know all the skills and know what to expect(not that hard in RA), it is quite easy to know which team is gonna give you trouble and which one won't. Even when I have a monk and I end up facing another team with a monk, I can usually tell right away if the team we are about to face has a higher chance of winning than us.

Losing factions for leaving is a very stupid idea btw. Alliance factions barely have anything to do with PvP and I have every single skills and items unlocked, so I wouldn't even care if I was to lose factions for leaving.

DreamWind · Jul 06, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I kinda agree with you. But I think than RA is completely symptomatic of GW's state actually. A very selfish and rotten community. RA is the beginning of PvP. The starting ground. I have enough exclusive PVEers in my guild who despise PvP upon their experience in RA and HA. Even in my guild, which is not geared exclusively toward either mode, I feel this abyss between the PvP bulk group and the others PVEers that don't even TRY a GvG so bad their experiences were with PvP.

I think we have gotten to the root of the problem. You say RA players are a "selfish and rotten community", and that is the attitude I see from many of the people thinking this is actually a problem (which I have large evidence to believe its not a big problem). I think the attitude is ridiculous. Its like me saying "I never play PvE because the people annoy me...they don't want to do what it takes to win bad enough".

You say you have enough exclusive PVEers in your guild who despise RA upon their experience...have you read the johnny, timmy, spike article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr258 ? You should...its basically true that exclusive PVEers don't like PvP NOT because of the arenas themselves, but because of the players mindsets who play there which is no fault of the game itself.

RA is composed of players who want to win, players testing builds, players messing around with friends, players playing to have fun or win with minimal time and effort, and many more types of people playing together. If you are going to impose bans to keep the people who DON"T EVEN PLAY THERE happy, then you are going to have a massive problem and alienate the people who actually care. The players who already play there (which are numerous) must like it for some reason, why give them a reason to leave?

MrFuzzles · Jul 09, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

This makes me wonder, though. If there's no point in playing if you can't win, how do you guys go about playing new games? Do you read guides and tutorials, spectate, etc, before playing?

DreamWind · Jul 09, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

This makes me wonder, though. If there's no point in playing if you can't win, how do you guys go about playing new games? Do you read guides and tutorials, spectate, etc, before playing?

Eh...there is a point to playing and losing as well. It helps you get better and eventually start winning. The problem is getting trashed in RA because of bad teammates doesn't help you get better, thus, you do what it takes to find better games.

yesitsrob · Jul 09, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Yes it's called Random Arenas, it isn't called Run Bad Builds So Your Team Will Fail Arenas, which is generally what people do to cause people to leave.

Even if leaving did incurr a penalty, there's ways around it - you could just stand there and let yourself die, sure the rest of your team might be people that complain about leavers, but standing there and dying isn't much different all things considered. Except that your wasting your own, and their time even more.

Don't even for one second begin to kid yourself that "resigning" will work - when was the last time an RA team all thought "Wow, this won't work, /resign" - don't be so ridiculously naive. The griefer on your team won't resign even if everyone happens to be dead. And no, I don't want to waste time while the dolyak warrior keeps himself alive (thinking he's amazing at the game because he'd "beat you 1v1") indefinitely when there is no chance of winning.

I think smaller steps should be taken to try and fix the problem.

- The matching system should really try and mix classes. so you don't get a 3 mesmer, or 3 monk team, or something else ridiculous.
- Premade Templates. Doesn't make sense that we don't have these. These would encourage people to not run dumb shit which will force less sucky players on there team to rq in disgust as they hear the sound of the wammo using healing breeze.
- Make TA not suck. Not possible, the game is balanced for 8v8 more so than 4v4. TA is sadly a crap shoot, while a good team will get glad points there quite easily. Dealing with a bunch of bad TA guilds that shit spirits out of every hole or run some gay NR build on the way to 10 is not fun, whether you. win or not.

SoR bonders are bad, why do people run that crap.

Porkchop Sandwhiches · Jul 09, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I don't agree with this OP's idea. I have a crappy network (out of my control for a while) that kicks me every now and then, so I would be uspet if I had to wait. Lately, I've only been doing RA for the same reason, so please don't take glad points away from it. I never do TA and am just about to hit R4 Glad. I don't get upset when people leave.

The only thing seriously wrong with RA is events like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...14/BSmatch.jpg

There needs to be a time limit on matches that kill the team with a single survivor. I'm getting tired of the players who grief others with builds that cannot kill nor be killed. In the picture I linked, my melee left about 45 minutes to an hour into the fight with an earth ele/derv. I eventually wanded her to death when I saw her go AFK. At least it gave me plenty of time to read the forums?

MrFuzzles · Jul 09, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Sure RA is for newbies, but if everyone you play with leaves, surely that's a pretty big hint that you're doing something wrong?

First of all, what I'm trying to say is that I'm equally as irritated with people on the *opposing team* leaving as I am with people on my own team. Secondly, I don't mind people leaving in the middle of the match as much - I'm mostly referring to people leaving before the gates open (and in some cases, before everyone has even loaded up). How the heck can people "know I'm doing something wrong" if they've never seen my character name before and leave before I've said a word or moved an inch?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Define "degen/interrupt ranger"

[skill]apply poison[/skill][skill]pin down[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]distracting shot[/skill]
Basic core example. 2-3 of those skills are on my ranger's bar 80% of the time. I usually fill up with offensive stuff, as rangers are low on the priority list in 4v4's, which allows me to often forfeit heals and defensive skills entirely.

phool · Jul 09, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Without reading the whole thread - RA is perfect, except perhaps that it gives glads (imo should not award glads but should award far more balthazar faction), it's TA that needs a fix (variable objectives, rewarding mobility, anything else that reduces the current RPS problems, and a ladder or anything else that attracts some more and better players to improve the level of competition). If you don't like leavers go to TA.

myword · Jul 09, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

they should have restricted gladiator points to Team Arena instead of letting people grind it in RA, which only exacerbates the leaver problem

Tiyuri · Jul 09, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

First of all, what I'm trying to say is that I'm equally as irritated with people on the *opposing team* leaving as I am with people on my own team. Secondly, I don't mind people leaving in the middle of the match as much - I'm mostly referring to people leaving before the gates open (and in some cases, before everyone has even loaded up). How the heck can people "know I'm doing something wrong" if they've never seen my character name before and leave before I've said a word or moved an inch?

[skill]apply poison[/skill][skill]pin down[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]distracting shot[/skill]
Basic core example. 2-3 of those skills are on my ranger's bar 80% of the time. I usually fill up with offensive stuff, as rangers are low on the priority list in 4v4's, which allows me to often forfeit heals and defensive skills entirely.

In RA, if /mo isn't your secondary, you're a bad ranger, 99% chance.

If your secondary isn't /mo, that may well be why people are leaving, I certainly wouldn't want a R/anythingelse on my team.

MrFuzzles · Jul 09, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

In RA, if /mo isn't your secondary, you're a bad ranger, 99% chance.

Assuming I buy your statement and succumb to your logic, where the heck do I go to increase my skills to a level acceptable in RA? Is there a freaking guide or secret cult of instructors somewhere I'm missing? How do I get out of this supposed rut of sucking so much that nobody wants to play with me? And why is my suckiness making people on the opposite team leave half of the time?