Curse

Zuranthium · Jun 11, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

"No, you still need an off-hand to get to Moebius"

Moebius requires a dual.

I know...so your attacks would be Golden Phoenix/Black Lotus, Moebius, Exhausting, Blossom/Horns (maybe both).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

"Shadow Refuge - Mediocre assassins use it.. this goes back to the buffing high-use, trash skills. It doesn't need to be a trash skill. Why do you desire that?"

That's where you and I differ. My life is complete if the skill sees play. Your life is complete if you determine that it is good. That's why I think Orison is fine (Across the game) and shadow refuge is fine (across the game)

Orison is absolutely outclassed by other things no matter where you go, though. GvG, HvH, (high end) PvE...there's absolutely no point in ever bringing it really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Just the way I think Mending, Power Attack, Dolyak Signet, Riposte/Deadly Riposte, Penetrating Attack are fine.

Ah, but ANET buffed Power Attack and it's now actually a skill that wouldn't totally suck if you put it on certain Warrior bars for GvG.

~Z

moriz · Jun 11, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

um... moebius MUST follow a DUAL ATTACK, so your chain won't work.

and i guess your vision for Blessed Light is different from mine. i've always wanted it to be a bar compression skill, not something used to chain off a Deny Hexes with.

wuzzman · Jun 11, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

While there were no where near as many options in the Factions meta, BL is most certainly not a bad skill, as it was probably more popular than Boonprot pre-nerf. Also, making the recharge of BL more than 8 or so makes the skill pretty useless. The 1/4 cast really isn't needed on it, 3/4 is a good time for that kind of skill.

The thing is, if you were to make a Withdraw into what you proposed, it would simply be taken on midline E/Mos, and would take hexes from overpowered to underpowered. And Hexbreaker aria is alot more conditional than what you suggested.
Hexes are intentionally more powerful than conditions, but harder to apply, which is why there is an "each member loses 1" spell for conditions and not hexes.

Although Glimmer isn't the most poweful of skills, it definately does not "suck". For instance, Soul Wedding uses Glimmer, so it must have something going for it don't you think?
1/4 cast heals should not be normal healing skills. Orison is perfectly fine as it is. It has a lower total heal than skills like Words and Dwayna's, but is unconditional.

Removing the 'While knocked down' condition on SUpportive Spirit defeats the object of the skill.

So it's practically an elite slot for a cheaper heal other? It's better in it's current form. I wouldn't personally use WoH as it is, but I'd be even less likely to use it as a 2s charge Gift.

Dismiss removing two would be extremely overpowered. RC takes up an elite slot, and removes all, but in reality there isn't a huge amount of times it will remove than two or maybe three conditions. A none elite version that does the job just as well for most of the time, lets remember that in this form it would be taken on both monks, would most certainly make RC useless.
Given the choice between a SoD/DH+LoD backline, both with a 2 removal Dismiss, and a RC+LoD, which would you take?

That is the theoretical answer to Humility, yes, however in reality it isnt that simple. Even if you interrupt one cast of it, hex teams regularly take two copies.
And Divert as it is works against balanced teams with just a few hexes. Even if you remove one hex with it, its a hex off, a condition off, and a heal, which is hardly underpowered.

Healing and Protection are seperated as it is. As you said, Heal monks make red bars go up, Protection monks stop damage before it happens. However you will rarely get a pure healing monk in high end PvP, as Prot/Heal hybrids are so much more effective.
As for Divine Favor, it shouldn't be a mix of Heal and Prot in one attribute. As it is, it is a nice complement to either one, and has a very useful effect.

Having a bar which runs Defender's Zeal and cover hexes wouldn't be practical, as you would be devoting a large amount of your bar to energy management, which could still be easily stopped by the target not attacking.

The res aspect of it is not a good idea. And as for being able to take any skill into GvG and have it work, it's not going to happen. Some skills are more suited to PvE, while some are more suited to PvP, that's just the way it is.

You want to run a mesmer totally devoted to using smiting signets? Go for it.

Empathic Removal is not bad as it is. It isn't quite on par with some of the other monk elites, but it used to be fairly common on non monk bars. Just because a skill isn't something you'd want to run on a primary monk doesn't mean it's bad.

Yes, there is alot more underpowered skills than there is overpowered, but you can't realisticly have them all equally balanced. There is alot of different skill effects, some of which are naturally going to be better than others.
And as for Humility, it needs more than a cast nerf, it's the recharge that needs hitting, so that you can permenantly lock a targets elite with it.

Of course I'd love it if all the overpowered skills were sorted, and Anet began to focus on making all of the skills useful. However that isn't going to happen. With as massive a skill set as GW has, whenever you make a set of changes to remove the problem skills, skills that were previously only good will become strong in comparison to the new skills.

To sum it up, I have to agree to agree with Narcism. Alot of the changes show a quick idea of what you thoguht would make a skill interesting, but not much thought of the implications of the change on game balance.
There isn't a real need for so many buffs. The game is reasonably balanced as it is, especially considering how much the new chapters have added, apart from a few problems such as Ritualists and Paragons, which need their basic mechanics reworking.
While I appreciate that you must have put alot of work into this list, I don't see much of it as being potential changes, and I see alot more of it being imbalanced if it was added.

alot of your post is fine. Its just that part...2 copes of sig humility???????????????
Ok just wondering, even in todays meta, who carries 2 copies....

Tab · Jun 11, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Eurohex teams regularly carry two copies of Humility to stop elite hex removal totally. I wasn't talking about in balanced build, as thats not where theres a problem with hex removal.

Elrodien · Jun 11, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

I read as much of your changes as I could, and I totally apreciate the work and thought you have put into this. Some things I agree with, others I don't.

I can see where you are coming from too, you want to see player choice, so an axe war doesnt always have to bring Evis>Exec or a Monk doesnt always have to be a LoD/Infuse. I do think that a mass update of this scale would have most players reeling and it would take months before you would see the natural outcome of it.

Fantastic work though. Its a shame there weren't more like you at Anet (i.e. people who actually give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO).

Lily Levant · Jun 11, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

I read as much of your changes as I could, and I totally apreciate the work and thought you have put into this. Some things I agree with, others I don't.

I can see where you are coming from too, you want to see player choice, so an axe war doesnt always have to bring Evis>Exec or a Monk doesnt always have to be a LoD/Infuse. I do think that a mass update of this scale would have most players reeling and it would take months before you would see the natural outcome of it.

Fantastic work though. Its a shame there weren't more like you at Anet (i.e. people who actually give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO).

I beg to differ!

First off, you're not *forced* to bring a LoD/Infuse combo or anything.

It's changes like this that would make the game either:

-Unbalanced as hell
-Boring as hell

It's changes like this that neglect:

-Team Arenas
-Alliance Battles
-Heroes Ascent / Tournament Play
-PvE

I appreciate the amount of time put into this, but that's it.

About your last sentence, it's not a shame, buuuuuut...

Players like Z do show interest in balancing, which is nice.

This balance just has no feet to stand on. Sorry.

Regards.

EDITO:

Because there is one thing missing behind this whole thing, Synergy.

qvtkc · Jun 11, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I'm very happy that you are not in charge of balancing skills for Guild Wars. Many of your suggestions would totally screw over PvE and even other types of PvP. But yeah sure, this was a list for GvG...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

We SHOULD see crazy, off-beat builds that are effective (if not "The Best Ever").

There is no reason to play any kind of crazy, off-beat build. Why? Simply because if it was effective, if wouldn't be crazy and off beat.

EDIT: I want to explain that one, I meant that you need bad setups (example 8 w/mo with life bond), and you need setups that are good and easy to play but limited (example searing flames spike) and builds that are good, but hard hard to play, but very rewarding if you play them well (example... uhm balanced). If you want to rebalance skills you need to provide for all these cases.

sir lockt · Jun 11, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

My two cents: Although I dont agree with all the changes proposed I am very grateful the OP took the time and effort in putting his toughts on paper. I think both Anet AND the community can have a valuable source in this thread if the discussion is open and fair.

Just one question: is balancing by boosting skills not a "licence-to-powercreep?" I am a bit affraid that some of the boosts make PvE kinda euh... easy and GvG a powerhouse of skills pressed as fast as possible behind each-other.

Elrodien · Jun 11, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily Levant

First off, you're not *forced* to bring a LoD/Infuse combo or anything.

Sorry, but you go into observe mode in gvg you will see that 99% of backlines have a RC monk with RoF and Gift of Health and a LoD monk with Infuse. Okay, you are not 'forced' to use these skills but you will be at a great disadvantage if you don't use them.

Maybe I'm biased toward gvg because thats all I really play GW for these days but what is balanced for gvg should be balanced for the entire game.

I do agree that there are probably way too many buffs in there, but at least Z is trying to put right what is so clearly wrong with this game. Its just a pity that it has to take a player to do it when Anet should have been skill balancing as an ongoing work in progress.

Zuranthium · Jun 11, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

um... moebius MUST follow a DUAL ATTACK, so your chain won't work.

Yes it would. You use Golden Phoenix or Black Lotus, which opens up your dual attacks (including Exhausting Assault), and after using a dual attack Moebius is then opened up.

Which is exactly how the bar used to work before they changed Exhausting Assault so that it had to come after a Lead attack.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

There is no reason to play any kind of crazy, off-beat build. Why? Simply because if it was effective, if wouldn't be crazy and off beat.

Perhaps some people would start copying the idea if they saw it worked but that wouldn't matter if there were countless possible options out there because people would gravitate towards constantly wanting to try new options and towards whatever the team's preferences are in terms of playstyle.

--------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir lockt

Just one question: is balancing by boosting skills not a "licence-to-powercreep?" I am a bit affraid that some of the boosts make PvE kinda euh... easy and GvG a powerhouse of skills pressed as fast as possible behind each-other.

My goal was to improve a lot of these sucky or average skills so that they would be on-par with the effectiveness of any common build you'd see out there right now. Although there would perhaps be a little bit of powercreep, there would generally just be more options. The ability to give players more choices...limitless choices, almost. Any new combinations of skills that were found to be too-powerful could always be further tweaked as well. The difference is that we'll never know if change doesn't happen in the first place.

As for PvE....there's always "Ultra-Hard" mode.

. You should provide some examples as to exactly which skills you feel would be make PvE so much easier, though. It's pretty hard to get much better than "Spiteful Spirit" for PvE (and they improved the cost of that skill to make it more attractive for PvP, remember).

~Z

Lily Levant · Jun 11, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Sorry, but you go into observe mode in gvg you will see that 99% of backlines have a RC monk with RoF and Gift of Health and a LoD monk with Infuse. Okay, you are not 'forced' to use these skills but you will be at a great disadvantage if you don't use them.

Maybe I'm biased toward gvg because thats all I really play GW for these days but what is balanced for gvg should be balanced for the entire game.

I do agree that there are probably way too many buffs in there, but at least Z is trying to put right what is so clearly wrong with this game. Its just a pity that it has to take a player to do it when Anet should have been skill balancing as an ongoing work in progress.

Explain to me, why are you at a disadvantage if you do not bring such a backline? Builds aren't the most prominent things that decide the outcome.
Your point also proves this is ALL towards GvG. Guildwars is not only GvG, maybe for you, but not for everyone.

So yeah, you might be biased. Which is fine, because it is extremely hard not to be.

What is so clearly wrong with this game? That you have no influence what.so.ever?

I'm truly sorry to break it through, but honestly, only Anet and NCsoft have influence on Guildwars, no one else. nada.

True if they're smart they will listen.

But they will not listen to only one player, I'll give you that.

If they do, that's exit gw then ^^ (necesarry smiley, otherwise people might not be able to take the words lightly.)

Think things over though.

moriz · Jun 11, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

unfortunately, GW is primarily about GvG. it is the only true GW "end game". therefore, most of the effort will be directed there.

as for why everyone's running a LoD/infuse and RC backlines, that's because the metagame consists of large condition stacks (deep wound, bleeding, cripple, poison, burning) with party wide degen hexes and some aoe. any team that does not run the above backline will explode in a very spectacular way.

Zuranthium · Jun 11, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily Levant

Because there is one thing missing behind this whole thing, Synergy.

Not at all. In every single skill I updated, I specifically thought about "how can this skill be incorporated into a possible build" and also "how can this skill be changed so that it is almost always going to be useful (in the correct build) and not just good against another specific build". There were some minor exceptions, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily Levant

Your point also proves this is ALL towards GvG. Guildwars is not only GvG, maybe for you, but not for everyone.

The fact is, GvG is the most "important" aspect of the game. GUILD WARS - the name of the game. It's the area of play that should have the most variety and the highest learning curve. Other areas of the game can be balanced in different ways. You can make monsters in PvE harder/smarter. You can change the rules of HA. In those sects of the game, the environment is simply geared towards something more strict that is going to limit the amount of variety which is possible. It doesn't MATTER if certain skill combinations in those areas overpower other possibilities (to a reasonable extent) - that's what comes along with subscribing to those more limited areas of the game which you choose to take part in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

the only real prob was the decrease in distance of shadow steps

It's only a problem for people who farm certain areas of PvE with that mechanism. But that doesn't matter at all because it's PvE - you can accomplish the goal within that more limited part of the game through various other means. For GvG, however, it's a change which is needed.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Jun 11, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I was looking forward to this post since you mentioned it. Not necessarily because I always agree with you (I don't), but because it would be an interesting read anyway, and it might start a debate about many things that need to have a debate started about. (If that is correct English). Regardless of what I’m going to read, I can already tell you I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.
This reply is probably going to take a few days to write. I will emphasise on the monk and the warrior part, since that is where my experience lies.

---After reading monk---

I noticed You’re trying to change one fundamental of guild wars: the linearity of skills. You seem to want to create breakpoints for lots of skills, marking the difference between ‘high specced’ and ‘low specced’. Changing fundamental game mechanics that have been the same since the beginning is not necessarily bad, but I think this undermines the two-profession system, and I do think that is bad.
I’m also surprised to see Aegis isn’t on your list. I realise physicals are quite strong at the moment and maybe they deserve to be held in check a bit, but I think it’s a problem that with Aegis you pretty much win against teams that aren’t either caster spike (lol), hex shit or packing Mirror of Disenchantment.

As for individual skill changes I disagree with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Healer’s Boon- Remove the “next X spells” clause and cause the spell to fail if your Divine Favor is 7 or less.

Why? - It needs something to stop non-Monks from using it effectively, but for Monks that DO use the skill they shouldn’t ever have to waste energy re-casting it (unless it’s removed by a spell or ability, obviously).

Why exactly should only primary monks be able to use this? I don’t think an ele with Healer’s Boon/Heal Party is close to overpowered. N/Mo’s with Healer’s Boon are, in HA, but that has nothing to do with Healer’s Boon. If a secondary monk wants to give up one pip of regeneration and his elite slot for a better heal party or whatever, be my guest. It’s not like it’s being grossly abused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Spell Breaker - Drop the energy cost to 5, drop the casting time to 1/4 of a second, and slightly lengthen the duration to 5 + Attribute Rank.

Why? - Probably still won’t be great with those changes but it’s a start.

This still leaves it far from playable. This needs, like a lot of monk enchantments, have a shorter recharge and a shorter duration so that switching targets doesn’t completely own it. Give it an energy cost of 10, a recharge of 5, a casting time of ¼ and a duration of 1..6..8 seconds and maybe we could use it. (I realise this opens up a lot of farming builds, which IS something to take into consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dwayna’s Kiss - Cap the health bonus at 3 enchantments/hexes.

Why? - Could get too crazy. Should never be healing for as much as Heal Other.

I think this skill is kind of holding hexes in check atm. I’ve only read monk so far, so I don’t know what your changes to hexes will be (I have an idea, but..), but as they currently stand I’d like to see Dwayna’s Kiss unchanged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Healing Breeze - Decrease the casting time to ¼ of a second and very slightly increase the regeneration amount to 3 + (Attribute Rank/2).

Why? - Might actually become useful on an off-Monk who has the energy to spread it.

I don’t see why you would want a ¼ sec cast on this skill. A ¼ sec cast on a monk would either be to prevent it from being interrupted, or to save spikes. +8 health regen is not exactly a priority interrupt, and if you try to save spikes with Healing Breeze, good luck. I’d rather see it as it is with a 5 energy tag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mending - Increase the regeneration amount to 2 + (Attribute Rank/3).

Why? - LOL, it still really wouldn’t be playable but at least it wouldn’t be total suck either.

Laugh at me, but a permanent +5-6 regen on a runner is nothing to laugh at. Sure, it eats a pip, but if runners can take Storm Djinn’s an not die due to a lack of energy, I’m quite sure they can do the same with Mending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Orison of Healing - Decrease casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Why? - Reversal of Fortune should NOT have a stranglehold over Monks. Healing Monks should be able to use this instead.

The thing is, Reversal of Fortune rewards player skill in the form of damage prediction and battlefield awareness, where all Orison requires is to sit in front of your screen with an eye on the party window. I think Reversal deserves to be stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Restore Life - Decrease casting time to 4 seconds and increase the amount of health the dead player comes back with to be the same % as the amount of energy they come back with.

Why? - Totally worthless in comparison to other options.

I don’t think I like the recent trend to reduce the cast time on hard resses. 4 seconds is barely longer than a sig. Sure, you can say it doesn’t matter with glyhp/sac-res chant around on eles, but giving one specific build the ability to hard res someone without a huge time investment is not the same as giving it to everyone who doesn’t need his secondary so bad, or happens to be /Mo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Supportive Spirit - Move this to Protection Prayers, decrease the casting time to 1/4 of a second, increase the recharge to 10 seconds, and change the healing to damage reduction of 6 + Attribute Rank that is active 100% of the time.

Why? - Just horrible right now. Would make more sense as a high-powered Protection spell.

I think skills like this are exactly what healing needs to become more viable: more proactive healing, less reactive healing. We all know preventing red bars going down is more effective than making red bars go up, and without skills that do that healing will never become as good as protection. Right now healing has two skills that sort of prevent red bars to go down: Supportive Spirit and Healing Hands. Both are good ideas, and are exactly what healing needs, but unfortunately both ideas are poorly executed. Healing Hands has a recharge time too long, so switching targets will own this, and SSp simply doesn’t get you enough health. I think this should work kind of like Spirit Bond, in the sense that it will save a spike target if the condition is met. Right now it doesn’t. I’d like to see its recharge increased to 10, its duration to 5-10, its casting time reduced to ¼ and the healing increased to 10...70..85.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dismiss Condition - Change the name to Dismiss Conditions, increase the recharge to 5 seconds, and remove 2 conditions from target OTHER ally with a healing amount of 15 + (Attribute Rank * 3) for each condition removed.

Why? - Protection Prayers should have multiple-removal spells.

Tell me, why would I ever, EVER take restore condition if I have this on both monks? You’re basically neutralizing any threat from rangers exept interrupts (again, I’ve only read monk so far so I don’t know what you’re going to do to rangers), and basically with a skill that removes two conditions unconditionally, you’re nerfing conditions in general too hard.
Also, I don’t see why you’re moving single removals to healing. I understand you’re trying to give it more utility, which is a good thing, but I don’t think moving condi removals to healing either matters or helps. LoD’s and even Healer’s Boon monks always pack dismiss, even though they’re not high specced in protection. I think what healing needs are more skills that aren’t reactive healing, but proactive healing. Not condition removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Extinguish - If a condition besides burning is removed, heal for half of the normal amount.

Why? - Needs to provide some healing no matter what kind of condition is removed for the spell to become useful in a balanced team.

I think Extinguish is actually fine as it is (though I’ll never understand why they raised the cast time to 1 second). It’s just that Restore sees so much play, that taking this is not necessary at all. Once Restore gets out of the meta, this skill will start to see more play, but that’s going to take some changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Guardian - Change the blocking rate so that it’s 10 + Attribute Rank for the first 10 ranks and then increases by 8% for each rank after 10 (maxing out at 50% at Rank 14).

Why? - Becomes effective for high-Prot specced Monks ONLY. I’m trying to create a clear separation between the roles each Monk should be playing.

This is an example of messing with the linearity. Though I don’t think I’ve ever seen Guardian on a /Mo, or any monk with under 14 in prot, I really don’t see why you would want to mess with monks packing low packed skills. I think the ability monks have to form a hybrid build that can both prot and heal is a great thing, and if anything I would improve that, not mess with it. (the same can be said for SoA)
Leave Guardian as it is, with a ¾ sec cast, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Zealous Benediction - Move this to the Divine Favor attribute and fix the conditionality so that the 50% health requirement is checked BEFORE Divine Favor healing bonus is applied.

Why? - Makes no sense being in the Protection line.

The fact that is makes no sense being in protection is its strength. Just imagine how weak it would be in Healing. Also, even with all your changes, I can’t see a monk speccing so high in DF to make this worth it.
IMO, you’re killing this skill with this. Leave it I say.

Quite a good job on smiting and unlinked though.

---after reading ranger---

No matter how much you buff pet attacks, in order to make them viable their dps NEEDS to go above 14. You’re sacrificing two skill slots to even bringing your pet (charm/comfort), so if you take a res sig, which you’re going to want on a beast master because I don’t see that become a splittable template, that leaves you 5 skill slots. ATM, that’s quite a huge sacrifice for 14 dps and the ability to take some crap attack skills. I think pet dps and sword dps (from base attacks) should be comparable before pets are worth looking into.
I also think bow’s refire rate in general should be reduced. Their dps shouldn’t be close to melees’ or spears’ because bows have a ton of utility those weapons don’t have, but it could be raised a bit. Making bows attack faster would also allow for making bow damage do something else besides spikes.
I’m glad you didn’t decide to nerf the Burning Arrow template. It’s incredibly fun to play, and it scales with player skill very well .
The only things I strongly disagree with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Crossfire - Change the recharge to 10 seconds and add 1 + (Attribute Rank/6) seconds of Dazed if the enemy is near any of your allies.

Why? - Needs an extra effect beyond just vanilla damage.

That condition is quite easy to meet, and daze is incredibly strong. I don’t think you’d want a spammable daze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Crippling Shot - Increase recharge to 2 seconds but decrease energy cost to 10.

Why? - Becomes more efficient but slightly less good at snaring multiple targets in succession.

Look at the big picture here. you’re trying to make Dismiss remove 2 conditions, nerfing conditions incredibly, but you want to reduce this skill’s efficiency in snaring multiple targets. Why? I ask. With your new dismiss, the cover from apply won’t be a problem. I don’t see any reason to ‘reduce its efficiency’ in the only thing it really shines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Punishing Shot - Instead of interrupting the target, it should disable all of their skills for 1 + (Attribute Rank/6) seconds if it hits them while using a skill.

Why? - Needs something extra to be a great Elite.

This would be too strong vs. warriors. Not-IAS’d attack skills are quite possible to interrupt (if you’re not standing too far), and it would make them lose all adrenaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Magebane Shot - Remove the “aftercast”.

Why - Doesn’t do much good for this to recharge instantly when they can still cast another spell directly afterwards as you stand there and watch helplessly.

This would make it a Quickshot that interrupts.

---After reading Warrior---

Overall, some good changes. I still don’t understand what’s wrong with people using skills with a low to medium spec effectively. It’s not like you’re not investing at all, since you are giving up the skill slot. Linebacker’s get quite a big buff from you.

Skill changes I disagree with

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Lacerating Chop - Cause crippled rather than bleeding.

Why? - You don’t care about causing bleeding after you knock someone down. This should act as an anti-kiting ability.

You already have Axe Rake for that in the axe line, and a knockdown in itself is already an anti-kiting ability. It’s a bit redundant to snare a snared target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Penetrating Blow / Penetrating Chop - Decrease the adrenaline requirement by 1 point.

Why? - Would make them good for a Warrior with a very low amount of points in Strength (or for a crazy N/W, R/W, A/W, or Rt/W....lawl).

These skills already crit for over 100 damage on a sundering hit. They’re quite strong already. The reason these skills don’t see play is not because they’re not strong enough, but because warrior bars are too packed. On an axe bar you‘re going to want either Evis/Exe or Dismember/Cleave. Taking a third attack skill will mean you’re giving up some utility from the rest of your bar (most commonly a heal sig), and frankly, if I want to give up some utility for more damage I’m going to take Conjure X over this any day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Triple Chop - Instead of dealing bonus damage, actually cause the attack to hit 3 times with 25% less damage on each hit..

Why? - Much too sucky to ever be worth using right now.

This just screams ‘abuse me with stacks of on-hit bonus damage effects like vamp weapons, orders or conjure’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Fierce Blow - Decrease the adrenaline cost to 5.

Why? - Isn’t even worth using on a Devastating Hammer bar with the buff to Mighty Blow. Could be playable on a Staggering/Forceful Blow bar with this change, though.

Would be fine on its own, but you’re giving Hammer Warriors a skill to inflict weakness with only 3 adrenaline as well. That combination is a bit too much. I think skills with conditionals that you control should never give you a big advantage if you meet the condition over solid skills. More like 1 second longer duration (my view on soldier’s stance), a slightly (SLIGHTLY) shorter recharge (like dismiss), or a slightly reduced adrenaline cost, because skills with controllable conditions tend to get out of hand when someone builds around it. (e.g. soldier’s stance, discord) this may not be a problem with an attack skill, but if you make spreading weakness so easy, be a bit careful in buffing skills that have weakness as a conditional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Maghunter’s Smash - Increase the adrenaline to 7, make the knockdown unconditional, and cause the knockdown to last for an extra second if they are enchanted.

Why? - Elites that depend on a R/P/S conditionality just should exist.

And I would take this over Dev Hammer because? The 1 sec extra isn’t going to matter because on a dev hammer bar I’m going to have Stonefist armour anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Staggering Blow - Cut the adrenaline requirement in half.

Why? - Weakness is not an amazing condition...you should be able to get this thing charged much more quickly.

Think about this in a build. What if a W/D with Ebon Dust Aura takes this? Don’t forget how much enchant removal still sucks. You’re basically giving a character the ability to spread weakness AND blind every 4 hits, creating the ultimate linebacker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Battle Rage - Reduce the bonus adrenaline gain to 50% extra but add 25% IAS to the skill.

Why? - Just doesn’t work without an IAS built-in.

Rampage as One without the need to give up my primary profession and my entire energy pool, and the need to spec in a completely useless line with a bonus to my adrenaline gain on top? I’ll take it. And so will everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dolyak Signet - Decrease the speed reduction to 33%.

Why? - LMFAO.

You’re still shutting yourself down completely. I say make it last shorter and recharge shorter, both to 5 seconds or thereabouts. This way, you’re still providing yourself with some defence when you need it (I mean, who’s going to be focused on for 20 seconds anyway lol), but you’re not taking yourself out of the game for 1/3 of a minute

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Lion’s Comfort - Decrease the adrenaline cost to 4, change the conditionality to “if you use a Signet in the next 10 seconds it takes twice as long to recharge”, and have the skill be totally Strength based, not half Tactics.

Why? - Far too sucky and inflexible right now.

Self heals don’t really fir the strength line, so you’d need to make its effect weaker. I agree with moving it to one attribute though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Dragon Slash - Decrease the adrenaline cost by 1 point.

Why? - Has become a little underpowered in comparison to other skill combinations.

Has it? Ok, crip slash rocks hard, but this is still the highest DPS in the game. If anything, it needs to be able to function OK with less than 5 slots devoted to doing damage, so you could actually bring some utitily on your bar. I think buffing Hamstring is a great start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hamstring - Decrease energy cost to 5.

Why? - Uncovered crippled at melee range...isn’t worth 10 energy.

Good, but not good enough. Reduce the recharge to 10 seconds as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hundred Blades - Cut the recharge time in half and cause the attacks to be unblockable.

Why? - Much too sucky right now to deserve Elite status.

Just make this crap non-elite ffs. Even then no one will take it over Sun and Moon, but it’s a start. Does anyone seriously think this will be too powerful in combination with other elites? (IW lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

“Charge!” - Change the duration to 0 + Attribute Rank.

Why? - Makes it more effective for Warriors with a high rank in the attribute.

Again, what’s wrong with low specced skills actually doing something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

“Fear Me!” - Increase the adrenaline cost to 5 (possibly 6).

Why? - It’s just too good with certain skill combinations.

Yes, but you’re also nerfing Steady Stance. I doubt this would be a problem without SS. Was Fear Me really a problem before Nightfall? I know it was in HA, where with enough Fear Me the ghostly would refuse to cap, but in GvG?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Soldier’s Stance - Add a conditionality of “you must be wielding a one-handed weapon” for the IAS to take effect and add an un-conditional damage bonus of 3 + (Attribute Rank/2) for all attacks made while in this stance.

Why? - It simply fails in comparison to other options. The added conditionality is so that it doesn’t become overpowered on Assassins.

You’re forgetting an Assassin with this gives up his elite. This would never be as big a problem as SP sins with BoA or whatever. I don’t see any reason to keep sins from using this if they want to.

---after reading sin---

IMO, lead attacks should always have their effects, and offhand and dual attacks need to always hit with a bonus effect, and a stronger bonus effect if used in the ‘correct’ order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Way of the Assassin - Remove the "while enchanted" conditionality, cause all melee attacks to become “lunging” attacks, and change the duration to 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Why? - Because the current effect is hardly worthy of this skill being an ELITE.

You know by increasing the range from which you can attack, you’re practically nullifying kiting, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Exhausting Assault - Should be able to follow a Lead or Offhand Attack.

Why? - Just some versatility; makes it more usable for Mobius Strike builds. Might need a slight recharge increase.

That wouldn’t actually do that much for it. You’d still need to be lucky to interrupt someone, or catch them casting a 3s+ spell to reliably hit with an interrupt. Exhaustion that is so unreliable to apply isn’t worth taking anyway. Plus, in order for the exhaustion to have ANY effect, you’d need to constantly use it on the same target, and we all know how good the sin is at training a target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

DEADLY ARTS *important*, a new weapon should be created for this attribute line. Shurikens - A two-handed projectile weapon with “half-range” that has an attack speed of 1.2, the double-attacking properties of a Dagger, and a damage range of 5-15. They would basically just be used for Deadly Arts “caster” Assassins to utilize the (low specced) Critical Strikes attribute.

I think a deadly arts caster would be better off with a one handed weapon and an offhand, like any other caster, than with a low damage two handed weapon. Also, you’re mentioning ‘should be able to follow any dagger/shuriken attack’ in a few skills, but I don’t see any shuriken attack skills. Please tell me why I’d take a two handed weapon with such trivial damage and no attack skills if I could just take a +5e sword and an offhand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow Prison - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - Fixes to IAS abilities and Black Lotus Strike make Assassin spikes less deadly. Drop the recharge to move the skill more towards being a general snare.

As much as I love that you kill IAS’s for sins, and as much as I agree their spike is way less dangerous now, Shadow Prison takes so much skill out of playing a melee, it’s just not funny. It’s kind of becoming a cliché, but positioning and kiting are suddenly not important at all anymore with this skill. I wouldn’t actually mind seeing this dead and buried.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Death's Retreat - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.

Why? - Because otherwise Return is almost always going to be superior.

While we’re at it (taking the skill out of kiting), let’s not give monks TWO short recharging shadow steps shall we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow Meld - Decrease to 5 energy and a 15 second recharge.

Why? - Aura of Displacement has a stronger effect. This should cost less energy.

If you’re spending your elite on a defensive shadow step, I think you should be able to use it whenever you want. I’d say 5e 5r on this one.

---After reading Ritualist---
I like both ideas on ritualists. Not really being able to move around the map with spirits is a HUGE handicap, especially in this split-heavy meta, and I think Arenanet kind of underestimated that. Shorter cast/recharge times would fix that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadowsong - Decrease the casting time to 3 seconds.

Why? - If you couldn’t tell I’m setting up a pattern here....3 second cast time for the spirits with a powerful offensive effect, 2 second cast time for the more vanilla spirits, and 1 second cast time for the spirits that do nothing until they die.

Shadowsong is AoE passive defense. AoE Passive Defense is bad. Therefore, shadowsong is bad. Therfore, it should not be involved in any buff.
QED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mend Body and Soul - Decrease the healing amount to 20 + (Attribute Rank * 4), but remove one condition plus another condition for each allied Spirit within earshot (maximum 3 conditions).

Why? - I believe it’s VERY important for this line to have an unconditional condi removal.

An unconditional condition removal in this line is OK, but this is just superior to all condition removals monks have if you somehow manage to bring two spirits. I’d rather see this removing 1 condition unconditionally (lol pun) and increased healing for every spirit within earshot.

(Word just owned me. I already typed ele and Dervish. This blows.)

---After reading Elemetalist---

Let me start off by saying I think elementalists are pretty well balanced now. I don’t really see a need to go change a lot of things.
Secondly, what’s so wrong with people using skills from their secondary? If someone wants to give up his buffer for exhaustion and his 14 specced elements for faster casts and some leet mesmer skills, let them IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mind Shock - Cause knockdown even if the energy requirement is not met.

Why? - Should never be reduced to just a Lightning Strike that causes exhaustion.

If that happens, you’re dumb. It’s pretty easy to eliminate the conditional with some weapon swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Burning Speed - Should have 0 aftercast (if running, you keep moving when you use this).

Why? - It’s currently worthless as a running ability because of having to stop to re-apply the spell so much. With this change it would become the absolute fastest running ability in the game at the cost of burning through your energy and health. Would be very fun on a Dervish too.

You need to do that for any other elementalist run buff too, yet people still use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mind Burn - Cause the burning even if the energy requirement is not met.

Why? - Again, you should never be reduced to just a targeted flare (that causes exhaustion!) from your Elite.

I’ve had a few discussions about the mind skills, and I think it comes down to this:

Mind Shock and Mind Freeze are situational skills. It’s fine to not use them for a while, because their effect might be bigger in a few seconds. Mind Burn on the other hand, is a DPS skill, and a DPS skill with a virtual recharge of 30 seconds (exhaustion) is pretty stupid. In order for a damage skill to be worth it with Exhaustion, the damage either needs to be really big or it needs to have real big side effects. (like a knockdown, or a snare…o wait) Really big damage on a long recharge only promotes spiking, so we either need to give this this skill a good side effect or remove the exhaustion. I’m in favour of removing the Exhaustion. I’d say 15e, 1c, 5r for this one.

---After reading Dervish---

I won’t go into dervish too much, exept for the avatars. I think the avatars are a pretty stupid concept. They’re up for a minure, and then they’re gone for a minure. What are you going to do during that minute? You’re essentially a Dervish without elite, and in case of Melandru without a major attack skill too, which blows. That means in order for the avatars to be worth it, their effects need to be really strong. Now on your dervish you’re alternating between being an overpowered killing machine and doing pretty much nothing. I think that’s pretty stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Avatar of Balthazar - Increase the duration to 10 + (Attribute Rank * 7).

Why? - The effects it provides isn’t as strong as what other Avatars allow you to do...needs to be up nearly constantly to be worth using.

Seriously, who cares about the extra armor? Just remove the armor and give it an IAS. It’ll be a permanent RaO for one minute, and do absolutely nothing for the other minute, but hey, that’s avatars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Avatar of Grenth - Increase the overall duration a very slight amount...5 + (Attribute Rank * 3).

Why? - Sad to see something go from crazy overpowered to dead. This should still see a little play for the ability it gives you to make a strong offensive push.

No. Just ignoring every team’s major damage migration is bad and deserves to be dead. This is once again a skill that just takes the skill out of playing melee. Just train one target for as long as it’s up. Yeah, that’s fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Heart of Fury - Decrease the duration to 0 + Attribute Rank and decrease the recharge to 20 seconds.

Why? - Works better this way for builds that want to use Extend Enchantments.

I think that’s a pretty bad reason, but the change itself is good. This needs to be 0 seconds at at 0 Mysticism because of sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Reaper’s Sweep - Cause the Deep Wound if the target is below 75% Health.

Why? - Too conditional right now for an Elite.

75% is pretty high. It would need a 10 sec recharge with that. Scythes are already the strongest weapon, they don’t need an Eviscerate that doesn’t need to charge adrenaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Ignorance - Give the spell an AOE range of “In The Area”.

Why? - Might actually be useful now.

You can already keep it up on 2 targets almost permanently. What build would ever use so much signets this buff would matter? Just make it last longer. Oh, and 5e please.

---After reading Necromancer---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Life Siphon - Decrease casting time to 1 second.

Why? - This line needs a good cover hex.

Cover hexes are a stupid concept and should not be encouraged. You can’t really help that they’re already there (or you’d need to make every hex 2c), but there’s no need to encourage it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Life Transfer - Decrease the recharge to 20 seconds.

Why? - Still not a worthwhile Elite. Could possibly be useful for a Necro Blood ganker if they improve the line. Lmfao.

I’d rather see it on a really low recharge, and a higher cost. 15 energy and 5 second recharge, with maybe even a slight increase in duration. That’s imo the only way to actually make it playable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Insidious Parasite - Decrease the recharge to 10 seconds.

Why? - It’s priced high and doesn’t concretely help to thwart the opponent from spiking (someone else)...should be a little more spammable.

This should last a lot shorter, but steal a lot more health so you’d actually feel it when you attack through it. (and so should Empathy)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Bitter Chill - Increase the damage by 5 points.

Why? - Puts it in line with Flare, etc.

Except Flare is not armour ignoring. No thx.

---After reading Paragon---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

“We Shall Return!” - Decrease the energy cost to 5 and the recharge to 10 seconds.

Why? - Not too useful by itself but it could be worth the skillslot if it were spammable.

What would a decreased recharge actually do for it? Are you going to res someone every 10 seconds? This skill is stupid because it only does something after you mess up, not because the recharge is too long.

[quote=Zuranthium]Aggressive Refrain - The Paragon should have -10 AL while affected by this.

Why? - It’s just too good of a skill to not have a drawback.[.quote]
I saw this idea in the June Nerf wish list, but it would need to be way higher than 10AL to have any negative effect. Don’t forget Paragon’s armor is only 10 under warrior’s for physical and 10 above it for elemental if they use that shout insignia. -28 would be OK I think. This would leave them with about the same amount of armor other midliners have, which means they won’t explode if they’re attacked, but aren’t invincible anymore either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Defensive Anthem - Double the activation time.

Why? - Too easy of a passive defense ability.

And for the love of God, give us a way to remove this.

What strikes me the most after reading everything, if we can’t use hexes and conditions to kill each other, what are we going to use?

---After reading the replies---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I'm pretty certain that the end condition on Healer's Boon is to stop Arcane Mimicry abuse, which could allow you to run an LoD monk with Healer's Boon pretty comfortably.

I do that in PvE lol. It owns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

This and many other skills you're talking about changing are already super-uber in PvE. I think Anet's policy is keeping certain skills intact for PvE balance only, and others for PvP. Even with a nice +damage bonus I can't imagine bringing this into GvG with all the better utility options out there.

That’s what I was thinking too. Zuranthium specifically stated this was about PvP only, but PvE is not something you can simply ignore. A lot of skills would indeed rape PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What condition? It's totally removed. I'm proposing that WoH simply become Gift of Health on a 2 second recharge.

I didn’t understand that either. I think that’s a bad idea, and not worth the elite slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't think it would make RC useles at all. RC would be giving you a bigger heal and is of course a 2 second recharge, whereas this is 5 seconds. It's about variety...there SHOULD be options are solid multiple-removal spells outside of just RC...hence my proposed change for this and Purge Conditions.

I think it will. If you have a skill that removes TWO conditions on both monks, and a draw in your midline, why would you ever take restore? It sure opens up some new options for that elite slot that is now taken by RC 110% of the time, but basically you’re nerfing conditions too hard with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Although Glimmer isn't the most poweful of skills, it definately does not "suck". For instance, Soul Wedding uses Glimmer, so it must have something going for it don't you think?
1/4 cast heals should not be normal healing skills. Orison is perfectly fine as it is. It has a lower total heal than skills like Words and Dwayna's, but is unconditional.

I think that says more about Soul Wedding than about Glimmer. I agree that normal healing skills shouldn’t be 1/4s casts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

As others have said, think of the conjures. Conjure + OoP + triple->crit->prot would be a sick solo-spike.

OoP needs physical damage which means you can’t use conjure.
Not that that makes it any less of a solo spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

1) As others have said, theres just way too much information here. No one has the willpower or desire to wade through all of that.

Actually I just did, but I have to admit I have one week of nothing to do and it took me a few days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

As I’ve said, healing monks aren’t interesting. Basically, the skills required for each are like this:

Healing monks: Be able to watch red bars. Know how much red bar each skill fills up. Know the conditions on your skills (word, dwayna’s).

Prot monks: Be able to watch enemy warrior’s and casters. Be able to preemptively place prots on warrior targets. Be able to see spikes and convergences. Be able to keep up with aggressive warrior switching. Be able to recognize prime targets based on positioning. Be able to get your energy’s worth out of each skill.

Guess which one rewards skills more? I understand that you want a heal monk/prot monk meta, but the simple fact is that the prot monk takes so much more skill and is so much better for the game.

My point exactly. This is why RoF deserves to be more powerful than OoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Not if RoF isn't giving enough of a return at the lower-specced Prot levels for it to be worthwhile over Orison.

You know a 6 specced RoF returns more health than Glimmer, right?

That was it. I appreciate this wall of text became almost as huge as the OP, and I hope to see at least 20 replies flaming this into the ground when I wake up.

Zuranthium · Jun 12, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Hurray, Thomas! LMAO, I've created a monster. Looking the size of your reply almost made me faint. BUT I SHALL PRESS ON!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I noticed You’re trying to change one fundamental of guild wars: the linearity of skills. You seem to want to create breakpoints for lots of skills, marking the difference between ‘high specced’ and ‘low specced’. Changing fundamental game mechanics that have been the same since the beginning is not necessarily bad, but I think this undermines the two-profession system, and I do think that is bad.

Those kinds of changes that I have written are almost entirely in the Monk section. I definitely do not want to take away from the two-profession system though! Absolutely the opposite. Those types of changes were for things you'd never see on a secondary class anyway...Guardian, RoF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I’m also surprised to see Aegis isn’t on your list. I realise physicals are quite strong at the moment and maybe they deserve to be held in check a bit, but I think it’s a problem that with Aegis you pretty much win against teams that aren’t either caster spike (lol), hex shit or packing Mirror of Disenchantment.

I do think Aegis needs to have a smaller range of effect - that needs to be put into the list. I don't think anything else on the spell itself needs to be changed at all. You don't NEED Mirror to beat those kinds of teams...you need to interrupt the Aegis. I'm a big believer in interrupts. Every team should have at least a couple of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Why exactly should only primary monks be able to use this? I don’t think an ele with Healer’s Boon/Heal Party is close to overpowered. N/Mo’s with Healer’s Boon are, in HA, but that has nothing to do with Healer’s Boon. If a secondary monk wants to give up one pip of regeneration and his elite slot for a better heal party or whatever, be my guest. It’s not like it’s being grossly abused.

Every Elite in the game that comes from a primary attribute line is playable pretty much for that class only. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue because I don't see how an elem with Healer's Boon (in its current form) is a build you'd ever want to use anyway.

Quote:

Spell Breaker

This still leaves it far from playable. This needs, like a lot of monk enchantments, have a shorter recharge and a shorter duration so that switching targets doesn’t completely own it. Give it an energy cost of 10, a recharge of 5, a casting time of ¼ and a duration of 1..6..8 seconds and maybe we could use it. (I realise this opens up a lot of farming builds, which IS something to take into consideration.

This isn't a spell that cares about target switching, though. It's an enchantment you put on someone to run the flag in. Or put on your Elem so that he can burn through all of his spells without getting interrupted/diverted by a Mesmer when you want to make a strong push.

Quote:

I’ve only read monk so far, so I don’t know what your changes to hexes will be (I have an idea, but..), but as they currently stand I’d like to see Dwayna’s Kiss unchanged.

One of the changes I propose is limiting hexes to a maximum of 4 per person. No more SBRi attempts. I put a cap on Dwayna's Kiss to limit it for parties with lots of stacked enchantments.

Quote:

Healing Breeze

I don’t see why you would want a ¼ sec cast on this skill. A ¼ sec cast on a monk would either be to prevent it from being interrupted, or to save spikes. +8 health regen is not exactly a priority interrupt, and if you try to save spikes with Healing Breeze, good luck.

You'd never put this on a Monk. That change was to make the skill better for a /Mo.

Quote:

Orison of Healing

The thing is, Reversal of Fortune rewards player skill in the form of damage prediction and battlefield awareness, where all Orison requires is to sit in front of your screen with an eye on the party window.

I've already talked about this earlier in the thread and I disagree entirely. Just because you're a Heal monk, that doesn't mean you can just watch the party bar.

Quote:

Restore Life
I don’t think I like the recent trend to reduce the cast time on hard resses. 4 seconds is barely longer than a sig. Sure, you can say it doesn’t matter with glyhp/sac-res chant around on eles, but giving one specific build the ability to hard res someone without a huge time investment is not the same as giving it to everyone who doesn’t need his secondary so bad, or happens to be /Mo.

Remember, though, Restore Life is touch range. That's a pretty big detriment.

Quote:

Supportive Spirit

I think skills like this are exactly what healing needs to become more viable: more proactive healing, less reactive healing. We all know preventing red bars going down is more effective than making red bars go up, and without skills that do that healing will never become as good as protection. Right now healing has two skills that sort of prevent red bars to go down: Supportive Spirit and Healing Hands. Both are good ideas, and are exactly what healing needs, but unfortunately both ideas are poorly executed.

I think Supportive Spirit is a horrible idea because it relies on Build Wars too much. If the other team has no knockdowns, it's useless.

Quote:

Dismiss Condition(s)

Tell me, why would I ever, EVER take restore condition if I have this on both monks? You’re basically neutralizing any threat from rangers exept interrupts (again, I’ve only read monk so far so I don’t know what you’re going to do to rangers), and basically with a skill that removes two conditions unconditionally, you’re nerfing conditions in general too hard.

You don't have it on both Monks...a Healing Monk won't have a high enough prot spec to make this remove 2 conditions.

You COULD have two copies if you ran 2 Scribes Insight Boon Prot Monks (or if you ran two Prot monks plus another character who has VERY strong healing backup) but those options obviously have lots of other limitations of their own that equal it out.

Quote:

I think Extinguish is actually fine as it is (though I’ll never understand why they raised the cast time to 1 second). It’s just that Restore sees so much play, that taking this is not necessary at all. Once Restore gets out of the meta, this skill will start to see more play, but that’s going to take some changes.

People take RC because of stacked conditions and because of the big heal. Extinguish doesn't do either of those things. Extinguish is too much of a Build Wars skill right now...you bring it combat a KGYU-type build with massive party-wide condition spread and that's it. The skill itself should have more uses (such as quickly removing blind from two of your physicals at the same time...which is something the skill COULD do before the nerf).

Quote:

This is an example of messing with the linearity. Though I don’t think I’ve ever seen Guardian on a /Mo, or any monk with under 14 in prot, I really don’t see why you would want to mess with monks packing low packed skills. I think the ability monks have to form a hybrid build that can both prot and heal is a great thing, and if anything I would improve that, not mess with it.

I'm not messing with Hybrid monks, though. Just Healing Monks.

Quote:

Zealous Benediction
The fact that is makes no sense being in protection is its strength. Just imagine how weak it would be in Healing. Also, even with all your changes, I can’t see a monk speccing so high in DF to make this worth it.
IMO, you’re killing this skill with this. Leave it I say.

When people ran ZB on their runner Monks, they used an attribute spread of 14 Prot, 12 Divine, 6 Air. Now you'd just do 14 Divine/12 Prot/6 Air. Speccing high in DF would DEFINITELY be worth it for many builds with the other changes I put in.

Quote:

---after reading ranger---

No matter how much you buff pet attacks, in order to make them viable their dps NEEDS to go above 14. You’re sacrificing two skill slots to even bringing your pet (charm/comfort), so if you take a res sig, which you’re going to want on a beast master because I don’t see that become a splittable template, that leaves you 5 skill slots. ATM, that’s quite a huge sacrifice for 14 dps and the ability to take some crap attack skills. I think pet dps and sword dps (from base attacks) should be comparable before pets are worth looking into.

I also think bow’s refire rate in general should be reduced. Their dps shouldn’t be close to melees’ or spears’ because bows have a ton of utility those weapons don’t have, but it could be raised a bit. Making bows attack faster would also allow for making bow damage do something else besides spikes.
I’m glad you didn’t decide to nerf the Burning Arrow template. It’s incredibly fun to play, and it scales with player skill very well.

I don't think bows need to attack faster with the changes I outlined to the actual skills in the line. Needling Shot in particular can be VERY SCARY in a split situation when the Ranger has Kindle Arrows + Conjure Flame.

Quote:

Crossfire

That condition is quite easy to meet, and daze is incredibly strong. I don’t think you’d want a spammable daze.

Perhaps a little longer on the recharge. Remember, though, it's only 3 seconds of dazed.

Quote:

Crippling Shot

Look at the big picture here. you’re trying to make Dismiss remove 2 conditions, nerfing conditions incredibly, but you want to reduce this skill’s efficiency in snaring multiple targets. Why? I ask. With your new dismiss, the cover from apply won’t be a problem. I don’t see any reason to ‘reduce its efficiency’ in the only thing it really shines.

I improved the efficiency, didn't nerf it. The 1 second of extra recharge was simply because the skill might be just a little too if it was back at 10 energy.

Also, I'm really not nerfing conditions? RC is a 2 second recharge and removes all conditions! Dimiss is simply an alternative to promote different Elites. You would most definitely still be weaker when it comes to condition removal if you don't have RC vs. having it.

Quote:

Punishing Shot

This would be too strong vs. warriors. Not-IAS’d attack skills are quite possible to interrupt (if you’re not standing too far), and it would make them lose all adrenaline.

Yes, I was very concerned about the recharge on the skill with that change. Probably should go up a little bit. Although, remember, Rangers used to carry around Blackout all the time...and that's on automatic, non-Elite way to remove Adrenaline (on a short recharge!).

Quote:

Magebane Shot

This would make it a Quickshot that interrupts.

I updated the skill yesterday so that the attack does no damage. Even without that change, though, it wouldn't always be better than Quickshot...it only recharges fast if you actually hit a spell.

Quote:

Lacerating Chop

You already have Axe Rake for that in the axe line, and a knockdown in itself is already an anti-kiting ability. It’s a bit redundant to snare a snared target.

The knockdown itself is just temporary, though...people get up and keep running afterwards. I saw this skill as being useful for an Eviscerate Shock Axe on a team that doesn't need that character to have Heal Sig. Axe Rake isn't what you want on an Eviscerate bar because the Crippled is just going to get removed along with the Deep Wound a lot of times (since it's an obvious spike). Axe Rake is something you'd want for a Cleave bar because you're applying Deep Wounds more often.

Quote:

Penetrating Blow / Penetrating Chop

These skills already crit for over 100 damage on a sundering hit. They’re quite strong already. The reason these skills don’t see play is not because they’re not strong enough, but because warrior bars are too packed.

Well you probably don't ever want them for a Warrior bar because they interact unfavorably with the Strength attribute. Look at it as a small buff to R/W "Axe" Thumpers and N/W Meleemancers (lmao), though.

Quote:

Triple Chop

This just screams ‘abuse me with stacks of on-hit bonus damage effects like vamp weapons, orders or conjure’

With the damage reduction on each hit, it's really not that much stronger than Hundred Blades (which a Sword Warrior can follow-up with Sun and Moon Slash!). Perhaps the numbers do need to be looked at again, though.

Quote:

Fierce Blow

Would be fine on its own, but you’re giving Hammer Warriors a skill to inflict weakness with only 3 adrenaline as well. That combination is a bit too much.

People have stated that they still think that kind of Hammer build still wouldn't be good enough to play with my changes. . This is one of those things that needs actual in-game testing, I think.

Quote:

Maghunter's Smash

And I would take this over Dev Hammer because? The 1 sec extra isn’t going to matter because on a dev hammer bar I’m going to have Stonefist armour anyway.

The 1 second extra stacks with Stonefist Gloves (or whichever slot you put it on). I also changed the skill to 8 Adren because of that (would make Devasting obsolete).

Quote:

Staggering Blow

Think about this in a build. What if a W/D with Ebon Dust Aura takes this? Don’t forget how much enchant removal still sucks. You’re basically giving a character the ability to spread weakness AND blind every 4 hits, creating the ultimate linebacker.

A Dervish can already do Crippled + Blind with that amount of frequency. They can support the energy requirement of Ebon Dust Aura better too. If anything, Ebon Dust Aura itself needs to be tweaked.

Quote:

Battle Rage

Rampage as One without the need to give up my primary profession and my entire energy pool, and the need to spec in a completely useless line with a bonus to my adrenaline gain on top? I’ll take it. And so will everyone else.

Yeah, I need to fix the duration on that one.

Quote:

"Fear Me!"

Yes, but you’re also nerfing Steady Stance. I doubt this would be a problem without SS. Was Fear Me really a problem before Nightfall? I know it was in HA, where with enough Fear Me the ghostly would refuse to cap, but in GvG?

On an Assassin with Locust's Fury + Flurry (and Critical Defenses to allow them to play like a Warrior can in most cases), I think "Fear Me!" could definitely end up overpowered if left as it is now.

Quote:

Way of the Assassin

You know by increasing the range from which you can attack, you’re practically nullifying kiting, right?

Lots of abilities act to nullify kiting. This is an Elite one. The critical chance bonus perhaps needs to be decreased, though.

Quote:

Shurikens (new Deadly Arts weapon)

Please tell me why I’d take a two handed weapon with such trivial damage and no attack skills if I could just take a +5e sword and an offhand.

Because a weapon's critical strike chance is linked to the Attribute level. Your critical strike chance with Shurikens on a Deadly Arts caster would be much higher than if you had a Spear/Sword...plus remember the double-striking chance and that they attack a little faster than a Sword. It's just to give a Deadly Arts caster a little bit of energy management through Critical Strikes...a character's Primary attribute should always be doing something for them.

Quote:

Shadow Prison

As much as I love that you kill IAS’s for sins, and as much as I agree their spike is way less dangerous now, Shadow Prison takes so much skill out of playing a melee, it’s just not funny. It’s kind of becoming a cliché, but positioning and kiting are suddenly not important at all anymore with this skill. I wouldn’t actually mind seeing this dead and buried.

Kiting and positioning are certainly still important...it's not like the Assassin is the only person on their team you have to play against. Sins are lesser in other aspects in comparison to a Warrior in order to have their teleportation advantages. It's just a different layer to combat.

Quote:

Death's Retreat

While we’re at it (taking the skill out of kiting), let’s not give monks TWO short recharging shadow steps shall we?

If Monks want to drastically limit their skillbars in that way, go ahead and let them. This isn't something you want on a Monk...it's something you put an on stand Assassin.

Quote:

Shadow Meld

If you’re spending your elite on a defensive shadow step, I think you should be able to use it whenever you want. I’d say 5e 5r on this one.

5r might be a little crazy, LOL. I was originally thinking about listing it as 10, though.

Quote:

Shadowsong is AoE passive defense. AoE Passive Defense is bad. Therefore, shadowsong is bad. Therfore, it should not be involved in any buff.

It's not that passive with the nerf to spirit spamming in general. A ritualist needs to position it correctly for maximum effect.

Quote:

Mend Body and Soul

An unconditional condition removal in this line is OK, but this is just superior to all condition removals monks have if you somehow manage to bring two spirits. I’d rather see this removing 1 condition unconditionally (lol pun) and increased healing for every spirit within earshot.

I dunno, but then they don't have deep removal either. Maybe just cap it at 2 removals?

Quote:

Secondly, what’s so wrong with people using skills from their secondary?

Nothing at all?? Use specific examples.

Quote:

Elementalist "Mind" spells

If that happens (having less energy than the target), you’re dumb. It’s pretty easy to eliminate the conditional with some weapon swapping.

Not really...you could be wanting to cast on another Elem. You could be wanting to use this right after you rezzed and have little energy. Who knows.

Quote:

Burning Speed

You need to do that for any other elementalist run buff too (remove the aftercast), yet people still use them.

Other run buffs last much longer, though. That's why they work.

Quote:

I won’t go into dervish too much, exept for the avatars. I think the avatars are a pretty stupid concept. They’re up for a minure, and then they’re gone for a minure. What are you going to do during that minute? You’re essentially a Dervish without elite, and in case of Melandru without a major attack skill too, which blows. That means in order for the avatars to be worth it, their effects need to be really strong. Now on your dervish you’re alternating between being an overpowered killing machine and doing pretty much nothing. I think that’s pretty stupid.

A Dervish without their form up is far from useless. Fights in GvG are very much back-and-forth. The avatars with really strong effects (Melandru and Grenth) play into that. I don't think it's bad at all.

Quote:

Avatar of Balthazar

Seriously, who cares about the extra armor?

A Dervish with Frenzy.

Also, if you want your Dervish to split well this Avatar could be a good option.

Quote:

Avatar of Grenth

No. Just ignoring every team’s major damage migration is bad and deserves to be dead. This is a skill that just takes the skill out of playing melee. Just train one target for as long as it’s up. Yeah, that’s fun.

The duration is short enough that you have to play melee well for the character to work. After all, you still need to be playing an active role for your team when it's down.

Quote:

Heart of Fury

I think that’s a pretty bad reason, but the change itself is good. This needs to be 0 seconds at at 0 Mysticism because of sins.

That was part of my reason too, I just didn't write it all out. I'll include it now, though.

Quote:

Reaper's Sweep

75% is pretty high. It would need a 10 sec recharge with that. Scythes are already the strongest weapon, they don’t need an Eviscerate that doesn’t need to charge adrenaline.

Remember, though, it's 75% before the attack hits. Not after the damage from the attack has been dealt.

Quote:

Life Siphon

Cover hexes are a stupid concept and should not be encouraged. You can’t really help that they’re already there (or you’d need to make every hex 2c), but there’s no need to encourage it.

If cover hexes are stupid than cover conditions are stupid too.

I’d rather see it on a really low recharge, and a higher cost. 15 energy and 5 second recharge, with maybe even a slight increase in duration. That’s imo the only way to actually make it playable.

Quote:

Bitter Chill

Except Flare is not armour ignoring. No thx.

Lol, this isn't either? It's cold damage.

Quote:

“We Shall Return!”

What would a decreased recharge actually do for it?

Energy management and a way to activate echoes.

Quote:

What strikes me the most after reading everything, if we can’t use hexes and conditions to kill each other, what are we going to use?

I'm not sure what you mean? Both would still be totally viable builds. Just a little less retarded in the case of hexes.

Quote:

"What condition? It's totally removed. I'm proposing that WoH simply become Gift of Health on a 2 second recharge."

I didn’t understand that either. I think that’s a bad idea, and not worth the elite slot.

I dunno, throw out another idea then.

Quote:

You know a 6 specced RoF returns more health than Glimmer, right?

Not with my changes.

-----

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm NOT doing any more of those tonight. LOL.

~Z

MrGuildBoi · Jun 12, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Sprint - Decrease the recharge to 15 seconds and decrease the recharge to 5 + (Attribute Rank/2) seconds.

So

20(original) decreased to 15.

Just to say your strength is 16.
15 - 5 + (16/2)
15 - 5 + (8)
15 - 13
= 2

You want Sprint to have a 2 second cooldown o.O

Narcism · Jun 12, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGuildBoi

So

20(original) decreased to 15.

15 - 5 + (16 (<-- say your strength is 16)/2) = 15 - 13 = 2 ..

You want Sprint to have a 2 second cooldown o.O

It would put it in check with Pious Haste and Dash...

MrGuildBoi · Jun 12, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

It would put it in check with Pious Haste and Dash...

True, but those skills have their bring-down like Pious, you lose an enchantment. Dash is the low duration. But a 14 second Sprint with 2 second cooldown is faster than Dash. =P

Narcism · Jun 12, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGuildBoi

True, but those skills have their bring-down like Pious, you lose an enchantment. Dash is the low duration. But a 14 second Sprint with 2 second cooldown is faster than Dash. =P

Pious sits at 33% with no downtime.
Sprint at an unrealistic attribute level at 25% and it still has downtime.

Patccmoi · Jun 12, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Here's a go at Assassin discussion:

Quote:

1.) All shadowstep abilities should empty the adrenaline pool. It’s a matter of flavor. Warriors shouldn’t be utilizing teleports in the same way an Assassin can (except for one very specialized build - the Shove Warrior). It also fixes Assassins using Flail for teleport spikes.

Honestly i'm not personally convinced about it, but i can't say i totally disagree either. And i have no clue at all why you want Shove Warrior to become the next SP sin (come on, Shove, Crushing, Mokele, Thrill of Victory, Death Charge... seems pretty damn similar to a current SP sin to me, except that it knocks the guy down right away on top to be sure that a solo monk that didn't pre-prot has absolutely no change at all to survive).

One thing is sure though, i don't want balancing done because of 'flavor'. Flavor is nice when it works, but i wouldn't go out of my way to make stuff match flavor if it's not required.

Quote:

2.) Attack chains should not have to be linked to a certain target. Any skill with a “must follow a XXX attack” requirement should be able to be used on ANYONE when they become open. Assault Enchantments and Impale are the only two skills which should be “marked” to one person and that mark should last for 30 seconds and not end if the Assassin starts a new chain on a different target.

I don't agree. You take the full concept of combos away and allow for far too easy spikes i think with very little skill slots. For example, you can use for skills:

Black Spider Strike
Horns of the Ox
Twisting Fangs

And you BSS someone, wait till it's recharged, and switch say on a monk and do Horns-BSS-TF. Which is a straight kd with huge spike follow up and they hardly had time to preprot or anything (especially if you use one of those massively buffed offensive shadowsteps).

The combos are there to give people a chance to REACT before the massively powerful dual attacks hit. Imagine something like 5 Assassins with Death Blossom and multiple straight offhands (or i dunno, Jagged-Wild Strike) and why not some shadowsteps... Death Blossom target in 3, 2, 1... bam, the guy just took 400 armor ignoring damage in the face + 10 dagger attacks... he's very likely dead. Oh, and everyone that happened to be adjacent is pretty damn close to dead too.

Just a bad idea. I understand this is an attempt to fix the combo system, but i believe it's a very bad one. Fully disagreed there. Personally i think that the main things that should happen to fix the combo system would be good recharge on lead-offhands requiring a lead and making them worth it while nerfing the offhand-dual-offhand-dual. And maybe something like 'if a dagger attack skill fails to hit, it recharges twice as fast'.

Quote:

3.) New mechanism on certain melee skills - “lunging attacks”. You can start these attacks from a “Nearby” range rather than an “Adjacent” range. Your character runs forward towards the target while performing the attack. Basically a tiny built-it shadowstep with the attack.

Interesting concept and i kinda like it. I think it fits the Assassins and it's really not a massive buff since the range isn't anything major. It should be only limited to Lead attacks though imo, which would favor the lead-offhand-dual combos.

Quote:

4.) Daggers should have a base attack speed of 1.2 (IAS abilities should all be altered so they are not able to be used effectively for Assassins...at least in attack chains).

I dunno. Not a big fan of changing base mechanics like that. You have to consider stuff like adrenal gain, zealous daggers, crit strike, etc... i don't see at all the need to change this. 1.33 works fine for daggers, and at high DM you have effectively 1s cooldown because of double strikes, and i don't see that requiring a buff. Dagger auto-attack is really not as weak as people make it out to be atm, it's in fact quite close to a sword (without an IAS active ofc), and really daggers are more a tool for weapon skill than a base damage weapon, which is fine. Just like Bow has worse DPS than other weapons because Bow aren't a damage weapon primarily, they're a utility weapon.

You want to limit Daggers and IAS? Here's an idea : Dagger attack skills are high precision attack and have 33% chance to miss when used in increased attack speed. Now you won't see any Sin trying to combo in IAS and you don't have to nerf every damn IAS skill.

Quote:

5.) Reduce the maximum teleport range to half of Radar range.

Personally i still prefer Earshot, but ok. I'd be fine with seeing how it plays out at half radar and only reduce it to Earshot if it still feels needed afterwards.

Quote:

CRITICAL STRIKES: *Important*, the energy bonuses for this attribute NEED to be at ranks 3, 7, and 12. Having to go up to 13 Crit Strikes for maximum effectiveness really takes away from the versatility of several possible Assassin builds out there.

I agree overall. Req 13 is seriously annoying when you want to use multiple lines and req 12 would be much better if you don't want to start using stuff like 2 majors. Assassins are squishy enough as is.

Quote:

Assassin's Remedy - Change to a skill with automatic activation and have it activate when ANY Assassin skill or attack skill is used.

I don't like your whole automatic activation/no enchant idea. But i agree with any assassin skill vs any attack skill. But i'd actually prefer any attack skill or assassin skill. Cause it's actually something i used before on like A/D with Scythe and i don't see why you should limit its efficiency with other weapons.

Quote:

Black Lotus Strike - Should always hit but not give any of the bonuses if the target is not hexed. Decrease the damage bonus to 5 + Attribute Rank and the energy bonus to 2 + Attribute Rank but also decrease the recharge to 8 seconds as well.

I think straight off-hands are very powerful as is. Honestly i'd prefer to see this reduce to a lead attack with a 8s recharge than a straight offhand. And i don't wanna see its recharge as a straight offhand buffed either... I WOULD like the 'half recharge if fails to hit' part that i suggested before to work on dagger skills though so that it's 12s recharge IF it hits, but 6s if it fails. But it should require its hex.

Quote:

Critical Defenses - Change it to a skill that activates instantly and reduce the blocking chance to 50%.

Imo, it's fine as is. And it SHOULD be removable... unspikable target by melee is ftl. At least you need to be able to shatter it or something. If you suggest instead an enchant with .25s activation so that you can use it on reaction when being spiked or as a pre-prot (and possibly maintain it through crits afterwards if you're lucky), then ok, can be considered. But this needs to be removable.

Quote:

Critical Eye - Decrease the duration to 1 + Attribute Rank, increase the Critical chance to 5 + Attribute Rank, and have the skill be refreshed whenever you cause a critical hit.

I find it truly fine as it is now personally. The crit rate combined with Crit Strike is already quite high and as emanagement it works well too. I see no problem with it, and i see no problem with having to reactivate it. I use it all the time on A/X where i use X. For example Dark Apostacy A/P with a spear.

Quote:

Dark Apostasy - Make this a skill, not a spell. Also increase the duration by 1 second for Attribute Rank of 8 and higher.

It's balanced as a spell and it SHOULD be removable. Otherwise you'll seriously end up with Grenth #2. What this skill needs imo is a 1s cast activation instead of 2s. That's all. The rest is fine as is. I used it regularly and the only thing that was truly annoying was that 2s cast.

Quote:

Deadly Haste - Change to a skill with automatic activation that affects all half-range abilities (which basically just adds “You’re All Alone!” to the list).

Not sure i'd want YAA to be usable with this... I think that .25s cast would be fine and leave it an enchant. Enchants have their use for stuff like GPS/GLS too...

Quote:

Fox's Promise - Change to a skill with automatic activation, decrease the energy cost to 5 and the recharge to 10 seconds, change the duration to 1 + (Attribute Rank * 2), and make it so that effects which would cause you to “miss” are reduced by a flat amount of 70% (ie. Hex spells would become totally useless on you and Blind would be reduced to causing you to miss 20% of the time).

I don't think you should be able to negate most miss with no penalty on a skill that can't even be stripped...

How about instead:

10/.25/20

For 10..22..26 seconds, you cannot be blocked or miss, but everytime you would've fail to hit you lose 10..5..4E instead. If your energy hits 0, this enchant ends. When this enchant ends, all your attack skills are disabled for 3s.

Why? - Because then it's a sure chance to hit, but using this to hit through stuff like Blind would drop your energy to 0 in no time, and if you hit 0 it ends and your attack skills are disabled for 3s (i.e. screws your combo). But it'd make sure you can combo, and stuff like 25-50% miss wouldn't mean you're totally shutdown, and a blind midcombo might not prevent you from completing it. But leave it an enchant cause there needs to be a way to stop it because having absolutely no way to make the attacks fail is a pretty heavy defense problem on the other team, and stripping it should be a counter.

Quote:

Locust's Fury - Change to a skill with automatic activation.

Why? - If you’re going to be spending your Elite on what is basically an IAS that doesn’t help out attack skills, it shouldn’t be easily removable and you shouldn’t be wasting time casting it.

I actually agree on this one. If you spend your elite on this, it shouldn't be strippable.

Quote:

Malicious Strike - Change to a one-half second activation.

Why? - Because the effect is currently almost worthless.

It's a skill meant for A/X. Tried it with a Scythe? It hurts a freaking lot and is basically free with Crit Eye. Can also be used with stuff like Disrupting Accuracy, etc. It's not really meant for Assassin using daggers, but it's a tool for Assassin wanting to use other weapons and i think that those have their place, cross-class weapon usage is often interesting and can lead to nice build like Thumpers (which was overplayed and i got sick of seeing them everywhere too, but a good concept). And i think that for those other weapons, .5s activation might be too powerful (could make a truly powerful Scythe spike with something like Reaper's->Malicious Strike)

Quote:

Palm Strike - Decrease to 5 energy and an 8 second recharge. Additionally remove the “aftercast” from this skill and add the “lunging” attack mechanism to it.

Add lunging, but 10E/8s is fine. It'd be the only straight offhand with a lunging attack, which would be enough of a buff.

Quote:

Seeping Wound - Decrease to a 1/4 second cast and 5 second recharge. Also change the duration to 30 seconds and move to the Deadly Arts line.

Why? - Because the effect isn't amazing for an Elite but if spammable the skill could actually become good for condition pressure builds. Move to Deadly Arts because this line shouldn’t have any spells.

I really dislike those cheap, short cast time and recharge hexes that last forever too. How about actually making it worth something by itself instead of making it garbage on a grand scale. And i really dislike this 'this line shouldn't have spells' thing you keep repeating as this is really flavor that you alone decided you want and that i have yet to see someone say that it's a good idea. I mean Assassins have tons of spells, don't see why there shouldn't be any in their primary attribute because it's called 'Critical Strikes'.

So back to Seeping Wound, how about something different, like:

5/.75/10
Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers -1..3..4 Health degeneration and is affected by Weakness, Cripple, Blind or Daze for 3 seconds every 3 seconds.

Why? - Because now it would provide a free cover condition for your bleeding or poison so that it's harder to get rid of (and thus nullifying the hex effect). And on top of that, that random cover condition can screw up your target in different ways changing constantly. It also makes sense with a 'Seeping Wound' causing all kind of side-effects. Since the random condition effect is short and can be shutdowned by removing the hex OR the bleed/poison, i don't think it's overpowered. Would be a very interesting elite imo. Maybe remove Daze from there if it proves to be too powerful, but i'm not sure it would be considering the fast change and randomness.

Quote:

Sharpen Daggers - Change to a skill, decrease recharge to 10 seconds, and dramatically increase the number of attacks this effects to 3 + (Attribute Rank * 3).

I'd leave it as an enchant ofc, and reduce cast time to 1s instead of decreasing recharge. I'd agree with increasing number of attack skills slightly, maybe to 5..13..16, but this seems a bit too much imo. You're basically insuring that for 30s every attack skill causes bleeding. Imo it should still at least have a limit that can possibly be reached (your limit could never be reached in 30s).

Quote:

Unsuspecting Strike - Make it unblockable and add the “lunging” mechanism to the skill.

Lunging ok, unblockable no. It's really powerful as is, the damage is quite high. I'd increase the unconditional damage and reduce the conditional damage instead so that it's better at finishing targets too.

Quote:

Way of the Assassin - Remove the "while enchanted" conditionality, cause all melee attacks to become “lunging” attacks, and change the duration to 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

No, just no. That 'lunging' attacks is a good idea imo for Lead attacks. But giving it to every attack just wrecks the mechanism and makes kiting all but impossible (even in a water snare i doubt someone could run from you once you get a hit on him). I agree with removing the 'while enchanted' clause, but that's it. If you want to give it an extra effect, you can make it do some small +damage or something, like 'critical hits do +1..8..11 damage'.

Quote:

Black Spider Strike - Should always hit, but not cause any of the bonuses, if your target is not hexed.

Not for straight offhands. Their ability to skip to duals so fast should keep them limited.

Quote:

Desperate Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds, change the activation time to one-half second, and set the conditionality to "less than 80% health".

Why? - The Mantra is “Lead Attacks need to be worth it, Lead attacks need to be worth it...”

I'd say Lunging attack, give it a decent +damage and some bonus if condition is met instead of a big bonus for an unfavorable condition (which is like asking people to use +20% < 50% weapons). Or something like 'if you have less than x% health or you're hexed' so that the condition is a bit more general.

Quote:

Disrupting Stab - Should disable all skills, not just spells.

Why? - Makes it worth using over Disrupting Dagger for certain builds.

Agreed

Quote:

Exhausting Assault - Should be able to follow a Lead or Offhand Attack.

Why? - Just some versatility; makes it more usable for Mobius Strike builds. Might need a slight recharge increase.

It was actually really powerful in Moebius builds before the change, i used it all the time on R/A and exhausted out a lot of people (especially Heroes, which was quite hilarious. With Moebius-Exhausting i could exhaust out a Monk hero in about 10s because their AI makes them chain a spell whenever you interrupt one or nearly so most EA actually interrupted 2 spells). I think it's really fine as it is now, and will be even more fine if Lead attacks become interesting in general. Especially if you add that lunging mechanism because the activation time of this is soo good (remember it can cut half your attack skill time and it hits at half its activation time, so in reality if you use a normal lead attack and follow it with EA you can interrupt something in about .75s)

Quote:

Falling Spider - Should always hit, but cause none of the bonuses, if the target is not knocked down. Add the “lunging” mechanism to the skill as well.

No and no. It's a fine skill as is. It IS competitive, it's the other straight offhands that are retarded.

Quote:

Flashing Blades - Decrease energy cost to 5 and recharge to 20 seconds. Also make it just a “skill” and not a stance.

No. Self-defense elites are just for PvE and people in RA. And it should be a stance. And the energy is fine. It's already working fine where it should work, doesn't need a buff.

Quote:

Fox Fangs - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds and add the “lunging” mechanism.

Agreed on recharge, disagreed on Lunging. I truly believe this should be limited to Lead attacks.

Quote:

Golden Fox Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds and add the “lunging” mechanism.

Agreed.

Quote:

Golden Skull Strike - Add a non-conditional damage bonus of 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Agreed

Quote:

Golden Lotus Strike - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds and energy gain to 2 + (Attribute Rank / 2).

Energy gain should be lower than that still imo. I agree with 4s recharge, but energy gain is too high at high DM imo. Should be more like 1..6..7E

Quote:

Golden Phoenix Strike - Gain 5 energy when using it if you are enchanted. Should always hit, but give none of the bonuses, if you are not enchanted.

10E is there cause the recharge is so good. I would instead actually buff that recharge even more, leaving the energy there as the 'limitation' of the skill. Make it 10/5, or even 10/6. Then its obvious advantage over the Blacks would be a very good recharge for a straight dual, but with a cost that makes it harder to do off-dual-off-dual. And no 'should always hit' on straight offhands imo.

Quote:

Jagged Strike - Add a small damage bonus (base of 3 + your rank in dagger mastery).

I find this skill already really decent as is tbh. The 1s recharge on it makes it pretty crazy at spamming bleeding on whoever you happen to run by. Small damage bonus could be fine. I'd like to say 'add lunging cause it's a lead', but with 1s recharge that might be too powerful.

Quote:

Jungle Strike - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.

Agreed

Quote:

Leaping Mantis Sting - Decrease the crippled duration to 3 + (Attribute Rank/2) and also drop recharge time to 6 seconds and add the “lunging” mechanism.

Agreed

Quote:

Nine Tail Strike - Add the “lunging” mechanism and decrease the recharge to 6 seconds.

No lunging, but recharge buff is fine. It really just does some base +damage. I don't like the idea of being able to attack a fleeing foe without a speed buff or snare. You should have one of those in your build, a lot of the melee balance in the game is based around it, and being able to just lunge all over the place non-stop doesn't do much good to the game imo. If they use a Freezing Gust on you and you can still combo off kiting people at will, it's more lame than anything.

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Repeating Strike - Should be able to follow any Lead or Offhand melee attack. Also cause it to do +5 damage for each time it hits beyond the first in the space of 5 seconds (maximum bonus of +10) and have it be disabled for only 2 seconds if it misses.

I agree with +damage as you hit it repeatedly, but i think it's fine otherwise just following an offhand.

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Temple Strike - Decrease to 10 energy and interrupt any action, not just spells, when used.

Interrupts, yes, but 15E is truly fine for this.

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DEADLY ARTS *important*, a new weapon should be created for this attribute line. Shurikens - A two-handed projectile weapon with “half-range” that has an attack speed of 1.2, the double-attacking properties of a Dagger, and a damage range of 5-15. They would basically just be used for Deadly Arts “caster” Assassins to utilize the (low specced) Critical Strikes attribute.

I suggested the idea of Deadly Arts weapon before, but you're adding something that risks screwing up a lot of stuff. For example you could gain adrenal from range really fast with it. I think personally that it'd be much simpler to give it the stats of a staff, but physical damage, half range and with critical properties linked to Deadly Arts (so crit % raise) and no 'double hits'. Being able to hit from range, even if half range, is already a big bonus for Deadly Arts sins, and it doesn't need to be that good of a weapon and i don't think it should be able to generate as much energy through crit strikes as daggers (which they nearly can with those stats).

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Assassin's Promise - Reduce to a 20 second recharge and a 1/4 second cast and slightly increase the duration (equal to the energy gain of the spell).

Agreed on recharge but not on cast time. I don't think you should be able to throw it on someone about to die or mid-combo nearly instantly. .75 or 1s cast should stay.

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Augury of Death - Do not teleport if you are adjacent to the foe.

Good change to make it usable with daggers

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Dark Prison - Reduce to a 30 second recharge and increase hex duration (exact same numbers as Shadow Prison).

It should be sporadic. That's what people don't seem to get about offensive shadowsteps. If they're not sporadic, they determine too much of the outcome. I used Dark Prison often enough personally and i think it's fine. Maybe reduce to 40s recharge. But don't raise the snare duration. The spell really isn't that bad, it's just that with Shadow Prison there, there's not much reason to use it.

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Enduring Toxin - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.

Not that sure, but ok i guess. It's more powerful than most people think in an actual game. Most people will actually keep reactivating it just out of kiting habit.

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Entangling Asp - Should be able to follow any dagger/shuriken attack or melee Assassin skill.

Any attack skill, maybe. But any attack, no.

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Expunge Enchantments - Decrease to a 25 second recharge, decrease the duration of the self-disabling time to 9 - (Attribute Rank /2 ), and have the skill disable itself for that short duration as well to add to the enchantment-removal stack.

Ok

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Lift Enchantment - For some reason this is a touch-range skill...change it to full range.

As you say, i think it's just too limited to see use. I'd rather they put it a bigger recharge, like 5/.75/20, and make it 'remove 1 enchantment. If target is knocked down, remove another enchantment'. Then it becomes a decent base single enchant removal with the potential of multiple enchant removal (which can be especially useful on support casters for spike. Instead of Shatterling one when your hammer war spike, you could have the option of Lifting 2)

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Iron Palm - Reduce the recharge to 15 seconds, make the knockdown unconditional, increase the damage (equal to PALM STRIKE) but make it conditional on the foe suffering from a hex or a condition, and remove the "counts as a Lead Attack" clause.

Damage shouldn't be as high as Palm Strike, that damage is actually pretty huge for armor ignoring, but i agree it should be raised. Unconditional KD and conditional damage would be more interesting indeed.

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Mantis Touch - Change to a touch skill with the “lunging” mechanism (should still count as an offhand attack) and let it be able to follow any dagger/shuriken attack or melee Assassin skill.
Why? - Because it's too conditional right now.

How about it does something more than cripple? Like poison + cripple... and let it be just an offhand attack like it is now.

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Mark of Death - Increase the duration (5 + rank in attribute) and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Sounds fair

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Mark of Insecurity - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second and additionally cause it to drop the opponent's Armor Level by -10.

Armor -10 might make it too powerful on /A for caster spikes, dunno. They've been very careful not to let anything reduce AL for Elemental damage because of the potential of Ele spikes. But it seems to me that something like Augury-MoI with a bunch of LOrbs hitting the target is very deadly...

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Scorpion Wire - Cut the casting time and recharge in half.

yes

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Shadow Prison - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

No. Despite absolutely everyone else telling you repeatedly this is a bad idea you stick to it all the time. I know you changed stuff about shadowsteps and about IAS, but it only BALANCES it at 20s. It's arguably overpowered atm. Changing the rest makes it fine at 20s. Reducing it to 15s risks making it overpowered again and will just keep shadowing other Assassin elites.

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Shameful Fear - Reduce to 1/4 second cast, do not cause the spell to increase your target's movement speed, and increase the damage dealt by 5 points.

Seems a bit too powerful actually. I'd agree with something like 1s cast time and also increased your running speed by 10% so that at least your target isn't running faster than you. The damage is actually decent.

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Shroud of Silence - Cause it to effect shouts/chants, decrease the recharge to 25 seconds, and decrease the amount of time it disables your spells for to 5 seconds.

All changes i asked for. Agreed.

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Signet of Shadows - Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.

Agreed. Really don't see either why they keep buffing Sig of Toxic Shock and not this one while Blind is much harder to make stick on your target.

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Siphon Strength - Reduce the bonus critical chance to 25% but allow it to affect all attacks, not just the ones made on the hexed target. Also decrease the cost to 10 energy, decrease the overall damage reduction to 10 + (Attribute Rank * 2), and set as a half-range spell.

Agreed with the bonus crit chance change to 25% and working on everyone, but disagreed on the rest. The skill is fine for the rest.

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Way of the Empty Palm - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

I'd rather see this changed as Deadly Arts emanagement which is BADLY lacking, though might not actually lack so much if a DA weapon was added. But either way, i'd like it to add 'half range spells cost 2E less'. And leave the recharge as is.

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Beguiling Haze - Reduce cost to 10 energy.

I'd rather have it cause exhaustion on top of daze. Combining it with Exhausting Assault would actually give you the potential to seriously exhaust a target, which would be an interesting new threat. It'd still be far from easy to do and quite lengthy (exhaustion doesn't stack all that fast).

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Blinding Powder - Should be able to follow any dagger/shuriken attack or melee Assassin skill. Also change this to a half-range skill, remove the AOE component, and reduce the recharge to 8 seconds.

Reducing recharge to 10s would be enough. If the lead/offhands become viable, then this skill becomes more viable too. But recharge is too long.

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Caltrops - Reduce recharge to 10 seconds.

10 seems pretty low for AOE. I'd like it more to be 15s and cause minor Piercing damage (something like 5..41..53).

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Death's Charge - Drop the recharge to 20 seconds.

Disagreed. Offensive shadowsteps take too much out of the game if they're usable regularly. At least elite ones take your elite slot. Non-elite ones SHOULD have a longer recharge. Since this one has no real effect, i could see it at 30s. Not anything below that for non-elite offensive shadowstepping imo.

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Death's Retreat - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.

15s like Return would be fine. One cripples, the other self-heals, both would be worthwhile. And i don't want 10s recharge shadowstep on monk, seriously.

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Heart of Shadow - Decrease to 10 second recharge and make it teleport you to a random nearby location that is not adjacent to your current location. If you are targeting another ally when using the spell, the teleport should be in their direction.

10s recharge is all it needs. Don't particularly disagree with the rest, but it also seems kinda complicated for nothing. And afaik, you're never teleported to an adjacent location unless it's impossible to reach a nearby one.

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Mirrored Stance - When this spell is used, you enter into whatever stance the foe is using for the full duration of that character’s attribute. While they remain hexed by Mirrored Stance, they may not activate any stances. Also change the duration to 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2) so that the minimum spec required to constantly maintain this hex is a bit higher.

That's a change i suggested before and i still like the idea. Sticking warriors in Frenzy would be nice.

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Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 20 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + (Attribute Rank * 2), and cause the skill to become disabled for 60 seconds when used. Also make it so that the character is unaffected by traps while in the Form.

Agreed with the 'disabled' part. Disagreed with the 'remove you lose X' part. It needs to be there to balance the skill.

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Shadow of Haste - Increase the duration by 5 seconds for every critical hit while in the stance.

Not sure... not sure what else to suggest, i honestly don't mind seeing this skill dead.

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Shadow Refuge - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second.

Why? - Casts too slow for PvP.

.75s, ok. But you REALLY exagerate with all your 1/4 cast. You say that you think interrupts are good and important but you remove so much stuff that are actually interruptable at the same time...

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Shadowy Burden - Increase speed debuff to 33%, remove the "while foe has no other hexes" condition for the armor debuff, and slightly increase duration to 3 + Attribute Rank.

Seems too powerful. Agreed with the speed debuff, but i only agree with the removing part if a global mechanic where AL reduction (not penetration) can't be stacked below -20. Because this + Weaken Armor + JI could make a Dervish crit at 300...

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Shroud of Distress - Reduce the recharge to 20 seconds and change the duration to 1 + (Attribute rank * 5).

30s recharge. 20s might be a little too good considering the effect is quite powerful for passive defense that you just leave there. And i agree that the duration should have better scaling.

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Unseen Fury - Reduce recharge to 20 seconds and additionally make it so that you are unaffected by blindness while attacking a blinded foe.

Could be interesting. But recharge shouldn't be that low, you could keep this up all the time with like 2 in Shadow Arts... maybe 30s.

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Viper's Defense - Decrease the recharge to 8 seconds and change the effect to “For 8 seconds the next attack against you is blocked and the attacker is poisoned for 5 + Attribute Rank seconds if it was a melee attack. 50% failure to block with Shadow Arts 4 or less".

8s is too short recharge for a sure block. Would be REALLY powerful on monks against spikes. I'd rather see it just more similar to a Shield Bash. Next attack skill blocked, if it's melee foe is poisoned. But change it to 15s recharge, which would make it competitive with Shield Bash (better effect with the kd, but 20s recharge vs 15).

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Way of the Fox - Decrease to a 30 second recharge.

Agreed

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Way of the Lotus - Reduce recharge to 10 seconds.

That'd be fine

NO ATTRIBUTE

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Aura of Displacement - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - Isn’t crazy abusable with the teleport-out range decreased. Drop the recharge to set it in time with attack chains.

Dunno. Would still be pretty powerful. How about when you release it you gain5E instead? This way its cost is there to prevent a big GPS combo right after (cause honestly with your suggestion of GPS is 5E if you're enchanted and AoD at 15s, you'd replace SP sins with AoD sins back again... sure there's no snare included, but GPS-Horns with Dash would work very well), but you'd gain some of the energy back when you cancel. I don't like offensive shadowsteps below 30s. This is elite, so i understand that it can be better and 20s is fine. But 15s is honestly pushing it.

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Why? - Because there are better ways to spend your 10 energy if it remains as such.

Agreed

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Shadow Meld - Decrease to 5 energy and a 15 second recharge.

Agreed. Maybe even 12s recharge

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Spirit Walk - Reduce recharge to 3 seconds.

Not sure a 'high speed train' is actually something people want in this game. I don't really like your idea of Rts leaving spirits forever all over the place to begin with (honestly i actually hate the idea). If spirits in general are more usable with better cast time and recharge, this skill already becomes very powerful as is and 8s would be fine. It's one of the only direct Shadowsteps that allows you to teleport half radar away (2 x cast spell range). If your team is using spirits, this is an EXCELLENT defensive shadowstep, and any recharge reduction might lead to abuse. Think about it... try to kill a monk with a Rt in his team and this? Monk kites you a bit, Spirit Walk and runs the other side, etc. And there'd be basically no effective recharge on the thing. Yes, you can kill spirit, but the way you made Rts with fast cast/recharge (think of Destruction that's like 1s cast/10s recharge iirc) it wouldn't accomplish much of anything.

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Swap - Should cost 0 energy and be a skill rather than a spell.

Fine as is. It can be used with Rupture even if it's 5E...

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Wastrel’s Collapse - Increase the energy cost to 10 and change the effect so that if the opponent uses a skill during it's duration, have the hex end prematurely and cause that skill to be disabled for an additional 15 seconds.

That or some of the previously suggested changes. It just needs a rework.

Damn... that was hella long.