Curse

Vinraith · Sep 21, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I'm somewhat interested in trying some PvP, but I don't see any way around sucking horribly until I've had a fair amount of practice. I don't really want to drag anyone else down with me while I'm still learning, but I can't figure out how to accrue experience without trying so... the whole thing seems kind of Catch-22 to me. Any advice?

Malice Black · Sep 21, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

PuG in HA or find a PvP guild that is willing to take on a newb.

TheHaxor · Sep 21, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Start in RA. Use observer in your free time until you start understanding tactics and start to recognize common builds and their counters. Eventually you will get to a point where you have all the common skills and skill bars memorized, as well as counters for them.

Pug HA works too, we all had to go through it (unranked pugs, ewww, so hit or miss). Plus, once you feel you understand the tactics well enough you can start lying about your rank to get into ranked pugs =P.

Finding a PvP guild with any sort of experience will be difficult if you lack titles. A gladiator title will generally show a lower tier PvP guild that you have done this once or twice before and can be reliable.

Shuuda · Sep 21, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Start in RA. Use observer in your free time until you start understanding tactics and start to recognize common builds and their counters. Eventually you will get to a point where you have all the common skills and skill bars memorized, as well as counters for them.

Pug HA works too, we all had to go through it (unranked pugs, ewww, so hit or miss). Plus, once you feel you understand the tactics well enough you can start lying about your rank to get into ranked pugs =P.

Finding a PvP guild with any sort of experience will be difficult if you lack titles. A gladiator title will generally show a lower tier PvP guild that you have done this once or twice before and can be reliable.

Actually, Start in TA, since that will get you more used to organised PvP. Watch Obs mode to learn tactics. Then apply what you learn into a balanced TA team. And stay away from the gimmick/broken builds, you learn nothing from playing them, don't be fooled into thinking they are good cause they get lots of fame.

LifesRestorer · Sep 21, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

And stay away from the gimmick/broken builds, you learn nothing from playing them, don't be fooled into thinking they are good cause they get lots of fame.

Quoted for emphasis. if only more people stuck to this rule... then GW pvp wouldn't be in the scrubfest state it is currently in...

Div · Sep 22, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

For monking, pay attention to protting even in PvE. That's where I learned how to prot.

TheHaxor · Sep 22, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Actually, Start in TA, since that will get you more used to organised PvP.

No, you start in RA so you can learn simple team tactics. You don't need vent/mic to perform simple group tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

Quoted for emphasis. if only more people stuck to this rule... then GW pvp wouldn't be in the scrubfest state it is currently in...

Gimmicky builds aren't even the problem. It is when only a few of them dominate the meta that it is a problem because it creates a meta with little build variance. Thus the meta is considered boring. However it goes both ways. If there are no gimmicky builds in the meta it also is boring because again there is also little build variance. All you would run into is the same balanced type build all day long. Every battle outcome would be based solely on skill, thus the winners would always be predictable. A meta such as that lacks excitement. Now in a meta with a lot of build variance, gimmicky and non, is exciting because the outcomes are not easy or even impossible to determine. Of course that meta would only exist in a perfectly balanced environment, which Guild Wars is not as of now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

And stay away from the gimmick/broken builds, you learn nothing from playing them, don't be fooled into thinking they are good cause they get lots of fame.

This is somewhat false. Yes, some gimmick type builds take little skill to play (see IWAY/Zergway). However, other gimmick type builds take lots of skill to play (see Rainbow Spike). A rainbow spike required all parts of it to work effectively in order to win. If all the cast times and utilities were in sync, it was a thing of beauty to watch. It was extremely effective at getting fame and it was gimmicky, however the average pug could not perform it effectively (most of the groups who did well with that type build were guild groups or flist groups).

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

No, you start in RA so you can learn simple team tactics. You don't need vent/mic to perform simple group tactics.

Did you just say RA and "team tactics" in the same sentence?

Start in TA if you want to learn team tactics. Join a PUG alliance and get in as many games as possible. Learn what play styles fit your team the best. Fill in the roles and form a core team. Core team is the same players doing the same roles every game.

TheOneMephisto · Sep 22, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Develop contacts/a nice friends list. You can be a great player but if you don't know anyone to play with you won't go anywhere.

Productivity · Sep 22, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Go buy another game if you want to get into PVP.

Div · Sep 22, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Gimmicky builds aren't even the problem.

Yes they are.

Quote:

If there are no gimmicky builds in the meta it also is boring because again there is also little build variance. All you would run into is the same balanced type build all day long. Every battle outcome would be based solely on skill, thus the winners would always be predictable.

Wrong. Apparently you don't PvP enough. There are times where I hit 3 times in a row through SoD and kill my target, and times where I'd miss 3 times in a row when they merely have aegis on them. Stuff like diversion and dshot can obviously be timed, but there is also some prediction and luck factor to them. In a balanced situation, the more skilled team has a higher chance of winning, but not necessarily guaranteeing a win unless the skill difference is huge.

Quote:

A meta such as that lacks excitement.

Lacking excitement to you, but better than lacking skill.

Quote:

This is somewhat false. Yes, some gimmick type builds take little skill to play (see IWAY/Zergway). However, other gimmick type builds take lots of skill to play (see Rainbow Spike). A rainbow spike required all parts of it to work effectively in order to win. If all the cast times and utilities were in sync, it was a thing of beauty to watch. It was extremely effective at getting fame and it was gimmicky, however the average pug could not perform it effectively (most of the groups who did well with that type build were guild groups or flist groups).

I think most people wouldn't refer to rainbow spike as necessarily gimmicky, but everyone can agree on skill-less crap like iway, zergway, ritspike, bspike, dancing daggers shit.

Servant of Kali · Sep 22, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

OK, PvP entrance:

1) Fort Aspenwood (FA). Fun, and most forgiving PvP arena. Warning: leechers ahead. If you decide to practice in this arena you must send biatching emails to ANet and flood their support, daily.
What you need to learn here is how the map is played (talk to NPC in outpost), and then you need to start memorizing (should happen mostly naturally) as many skill icons as possible. You know, when someone casts a hex on you, you gotta know what it is without looking at it. Learn kiting (running to avoid damage). Don't forget to have *fun*. Learn how to ignore the malicious chat comments. Try out stuff, practice is the key.

2) Random Arena (RA). No, don't listen to those who say start in TA. Starting in TA will only get you killed. Over and over again, until your morale drops so low you're gonna gave up on PvP totally.
Here you should learn how to use positioning perfectly; use cliffs and other obstacles, know when to stand behind your teammates and when to go ahead of everyone else (depends on your profession and build). Learn whom to target first in the enemy team; don't make a rule out of this like 'monk first', that's wrong. Targetting priority depends on your team setup and enemy setup. Practice. As with all other arenas, try using good builds first, those you can find on Wiki. Then modify them to suit your playstyle. In time, you will be able to make your own builds which don't necessarily need to be as powerful but will be fun to use.
Learn how to TAB fast, switch targets when necessary (that means don't keep on hitting a Monk for 2min if he has some nasty Protection spell on him) and Ressurect team members instantly (always bring Ressurection Signet). If you're playing a warrior you might have 'tunnel vision' and be slow on rezing.. it happens. Just keep practicing.

3) Alliance Battles (AB). Switch here as a next step for minimal team coordination. You will learn how to follow your team, how groups are formed and what's expected in them, how to position etc.
The most important thing you need to learn here is to: listen and obey.

4) Guild battles (GvG). Find yourself a casual guild which PvPs as much as possible. The rank doesn't matter (but shouldn't be top200 guild). Avoid guilds with 5 friends if you want to PvP. In that case just merge in some bigger guild. Your guildies in general should be friendly and not biatch much at your mistakes; that will make them a much better choice for learning the game than some PUG (pick-up group) in other arenas.
Build friend list.
Learn GvG maps, it will be confusing in the beginning.
Ask guildmates for tips and help. The main problem with people who don't know how to play PvP is they never ask anything.
Here you will learn more advanced tactics.. at first it will probably be 8v8 battle mostly (depends on how good your guild is).. then you should slowly learn split tactics and other maneuvers. Pay attention to flag runner; you can also watch Observer mode a bit. After a bit of time, do some flag running.
Try as many stuff as possible.. at first avoid being Monk and Mesmer because it's more difficult. Then try some Monking and then some Mesmering (in that order). Practice with all professions; you will learn their strengths and weaknesses and it will make it easier for you to counter them and kill em.

5) Team Arena (TA) and more competitive GvG.
This makes sense only after you've learned all previous steps. Personally, I've gone from RA to TA, but that's because there was no AB or FA back in Prophecies, and because I didn't have guild who GvGed. Now I advise getting into casual GvG first because TA is also more difficult since Gladiator title came up than it was in the old days. In general, TA is less forgiving because it's just 4 of you. If you slightly mess up, it can mean a loss.
TA, more than pretty much any other arena, will learn you the art of micromanagement, speed, and reflexes. Battles are mostly fast, you need to think and react fast, you need to know whom to hit, when, and how.

That's pretty much it. Avoid Hero Battles (HB) and Heroes Ascent (HA). Nothing to see or learn there, move along.

ddraeg cymru · Sep 22, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I'm in agreement, I say play RA till you get 25 gps or a comfortable ammount till you think your comfortable enough trying out against the organised stuff(TA,HA and GvG) atm im heading for 25 gps in RA (22 atm grrr at grind

) but yeah imo my ability has improved a fair bit, and i usually run my own builds for a little orginality. I still havn't kicked back and started organised even though i have plenty of friends sitting on rank 8+

but yeah hopefully once my exams are over and i have my gladiator title i could crack down on some HA and get rank 3

The way i started was just make a build and run it in RA, if it fails no biggy, keep repeating, learning and redesigning your builds. Eventiually you will hit lucky with a build and start rolling the points in. I went from 11 to 22 in a week or so (This is probably crap but to me and my lessexpirienced PvPing it was good. So Yeah i say RA all the way till you understand roughly what your doing, then make some nice friends and learn more

Sorry to everyone who thinks im an idiot (probably right) but just trying to help (if this does help)

moriz · Sep 22, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

considering that you need 5 consecutive wins in RA first before you have access to TA (unless it's changed), you pretty much have to start in RA.

i personally like AB as the place to get started. the competition level there is very low, and the battles tend to be long. plus there are no penalties for dying. it's probably the ideal place to learn pvp basics. just remember to run a good build and not some crappy gimmick, or else you'll never learn.

Shuuda · Sep 22, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Yes they are.

QFT, the problem with gimmicks is that they exist to farm newer players in HA for fame. Against a high skill level team using a balance build, most gimmicks cannot win. And you can see the impact this has on new players trying to get into PvP.

yule · Sep 22, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

even though im not top 100 material or anything i will give you my advice...

Start in RA, by the time you get to rank 1 gladiator, you should be understanding some basic fundamentals of the game (importance of rezzing fast, positioning etc.) you should be looking around for a timezone guild that will help you learn higher level stuff (GvG or HA, whichever you prefer) you will learn here the basics of higher level play, the importance of a cohesive team build, strategy, and start to learn specific strategies and awesome stuff like that.

Whatever people say about gimmicks or whatever, it is all a load of crap, the most important part of this game is having fun, and having people to have fun with. F*** the haters...

ddraeg cymru · Sep 22, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Personally imo AB is a terrible place for PvP yeah its fun but learning stratergy, NO no theres chaos the most organisation you get is someone spamming "CAP" every 10 seconds even if your winning. Also you dont learn the need to res people asap and you end up soloing alot of stuff unless your with a guild or friends group.

I would say practice in RA and then spread to more organised stuff after you get the basic understanding.

Perth68 · Sep 22, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

To get into pvp you really only need one thing, a group of individuals who want to do the same thing.If you have that just challenge each other, play pvp as much as possible and you will get better. Without that its going to be a lot harder. Here are some more general tips though.

Use observer mode. It will show you what people are playing and several builds that work, and also some tactics. Whip up some of the builds and play them in RA or AB or Aspenwood, really anywhere you can to get used to playing them and learn how to use them effectively. Learn the skills in guild wars and experiment with them too. Your going to need voice communication software some people use teamspeak but most use ventrillo, a mic is also neccecary. If you don't have a group of friends who also want to pvp your going to have to pug to learn group tactics and meet some people or get a rank/glad title that will let decent pvp guilds consider you.I'm sorry but pugging is going to be really rough, most of them are very bad but eventually you'll get a decent group and find out why any of us bother with pvp at all.

Vanquisher · Sep 22, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Try to join XoO. If anyone thinks I'm joking here, I am not.

Shendaar · Sep 22, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Read as much as you can about PvP. Watch the high-ranked gvg on the observer. See what people are playing and use that brain of yours to understand why they do it. Make sure to stay away from gimmick builds, as well as the brainless builds like the SP sin. While they can be fun to play once in a while, they won't help you get better.

To me what makes a good player in GW is mostly common sense.