Curse

Aatxe · Oct 03, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Split is fun, blockway is about as fun as getting run-over. All the talk of ''meta says no'' is rubbish, 'cus split is all we do and it's worked in every meta so far : /

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Split is only fun because on Obs everyone will be like "OMG LEET ASSASSINS DEY CAN SP TO 2, 3, 4, 5, 6!!!!11" and you'll get 3 million pm's saying you're good.

When you're really not.

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

BG run a dedicated split, and thus are obviously going to have a very strong bias in terms of overestimating the skill requirement. Really though, dedicated splits will just beat teams that don't run dedicated splits 90% of the matches they play, because they're designed to, and the majority of the builds they face aren't meant to beat them.

Especially in a meta where the majority of teams are planning for 8 vs. 8 combat.

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

There's not any of that attitude. It's just a simple fact - dedicated split is more fun than playing stand camping blockway because you get more fans when you split. It's the exact same routine over and over, and in that sense is no different.

When you run a build with split potential though, splitting is incredibly fun because you're looking to change your playstyle at various points throughout the game, and the strategy and tactics that come into diverse gameplay is what makes the game fun - for me, at least.

moriz · Oct 03, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

to be fair though, the BG dedicated split can pretty easily be reconfigured into a 8v8 slugger build. having 2-3 melee, backed up by 3 monks and an ele generally is favourable at the stand.

BG found a formula that works, and apparently works quite well. you don't reach the top 20 by accident.

Lorekeeper · Oct 03, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

BG run a dedicated split, and thus are obviously going to have a very strong bias in terms of overestimating the skill requirement. Really though, dedicated splits will just beat teams that don't run dedicated splits 90% of the matches they play, because they're designed to, and the majority of the builds they face aren't meant to beat them.

Especially in a meta where the majority of teams are planning for 8 vs. 8 combat.

exactly! You sir have also hit another point i was hoping would come out of this discussion. And its linked to the point i was making in the ''metagame sux'' thread.

i understand the points made by others already in this thread, concerning very logical and valid reasons why running a dedicated split is not as safe as running a build that can wipe out the balled up NPCs at VoD etc etc

but there still remains a glaring weakness in the meta, in that most guilds are planning for 8vs8 encounters... with static wards, paragons, and monk backlines who cannot operate alone. If Charging two 8vs8 builds together is starting to bore/frustrate people i really dont see the harm and i actually see quite alot of benefit/rewards in running a proper split build... whether it be 4-4 or 5-3 (6-2 probably wouldnt be enough of a threat).

im glad to hear that one persons guild (not just BG) will be splitting in the next months ATs (thank god for frozen isle), maybe if they show enough people on obs mode that splitting pays well in the current meta, we will start to see a more dynamic approach to GvG taken by guilds rather than a very stagnant one.

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

So you want a game of build wars, basically.

Lorekeeper · Oct 03, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

So you want a game of build wars, basically.

i think build wars is exactly what this game is. Thats a statement of fact rather than what i would 'want'. Anet has steadily increased the number of classes and builds in the game, each chapter introducing the next best skill or class, in each chapter the GvG meta changes to integrate the new classes and skills.

There simply isnt a single 8 man build that can hope to counter the diverse range of threats it might expect to face. The current 'balanced' build is weak to condition overload. Add some additional condition removal into it and it becomes weak to hexes. Guild wars became a game of rock paper scissors the second they started adding the new must have skills and professions.

Chess is not a game of rock paper scissors because both sides have exactly the same tools on the board. In guild wars you theoretically have no idea what your opponent will bring, so in theory it becomes a matter of guesswork and research, and mindgames come into it. This is where the ''metagame'' becomes such an important thing to understand and react to, you play the field, for some reason the general GvG community will follow a trend in builds, its the same in HA, and to some extent in TA. You can have success playing the same build as everyone else and if you beat them using the same tools as they are, you can be pretty confident that you are better than them. But another way of succeeding is playing the meta against itself, running a build that people are not equipped to face. If you defeat them this way, its not so easy to say that you are 'better' than they are, but you certainly showed the ability to take advantage of the prevailing environment. Both abilities combined are what truly separates the best guilds from the rest. The ability to beat everyone at their own game and to beat them by playing a game they dont want to play.

it might be different if we were given influence over the amount of skills and classes available in the game, we probably would have not made all these unncessary new classes and uber new skills. But anet had money to make and budgets and targets to meet.

the closest thing to a purely skill based GvG match we can get is in sealed deck, where both teams are given exactly the same set of skills to use. Then it really is down to two things

1. ability to make an effective build using limited resources.
2. ability to implement the limited resources effectively.

apart from that i do believe that guild wars is just build wars.

is it my fault that the overwhelming majority of teams have designed their builds with an 8vs8 focus to them? GvG in my mind, right from the start, was about tactical fluidity, and flexibility. I would say that it was poor build planning for guilds to limit themselves to such static and one dimensional builds. I would judge it rather silly not to take advantage of this behaviour, specially considering the competitive nature of the game. If you want gold cape you need to do what it take to win it. Several guilds in the past did so.

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Please don't call that spike build balanced. The only reason it gets close to people thinking it is is because you don't have 7 Necros and a Monk, or 3 Elementalists, 2 Mesmers, and 3 Monks. For all practical purposes however, it is.

Why Guild Wars is so geared towards build however, is because there is a focus on not losing, rather than beating the other team. Factions brought in some problems, but Nightfall was a far worse contributor. 2 ridiculous mechanics, various problematic skills, and the knowledge that you don't need to be winning a match to have victory pop up on your screen. I think Ensign said it best - the trend in top level GvG, and by this I am not talking about top 100, but like, top guilds, from being about awareness, tactics, strategy, and the like, purely to being about good execution of very basic things. As I've said, this is exactly how it was before people actually got really good at the game, both in understanding and playing.

The best example of this is just the standard Mesmer bar. All you need do is look at what's run on 99.99% of those bars, and how they're played - skill usage, etc. to know. And with Mantra of Recovery, while it is not the best Dom Elite by any stretch of the imagination, it is the best suited to doing what every Mesmer can do - spam Diversion on recharge.

It would also be pretty funny to see the amount of attacks a player takes (including blocks/misses), as prekiting is pretty much nonexistant in todays climate also.

Zabe · Oct 03, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you don't reach the top 20 by accident.

With current ladder, yes you do. Just farm ladder, play AT's when you face a 100% victory and you pretty surely find yourself in top 20 or 50, if you just play enough games per day, and yes, you still can suck as hell. I don't start to name guilds but I could show some examples from this.

Farin · Oct 03, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

It would also be pretty funny to see the amount of attacks a player takes (including blocks/misses), as prekiting is pretty much nonexistant in todays climate also.

Having played against WM in the old days as a warrior I can't explain how ridiculously true this is. They would laugh at your face if your team didn't support you with snares/shut down whatever(mine didn't).

Ensign · Oct 03, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

There has been a pretty significant shift in power away from strong skirmish templates towards strong team templates, most notably the Paragon, but you can see it in the way Monks are built now, for example, amongst other things. There's also a ton more defense in the game now, as needed to deal with cracked-out physicals. The sum is that you have to sacrifice a whole lot more to have any sort of split game, it's easier to stall from all the redundant defense, and both will come to haunt you when the NPCs walk.

wuzzman · Oct 03, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

1. The flag stand is no longer dangerous place. Few ways for the offensive to bust defenses or move teams even out of wards makes the flag stand extremely safe place to be. Also the revolution that is the Sor/runner has made split defense a whole lot easier.
2. Even if you increase the match time to 30 minutes, the flag stand isn't a dangerous place. Even if you remove DA Para's from the game. The flag stand isn't a dangerous place, simply because another blindbot can easily take the place of a DA Para. As long as splitting is something you do when you feel like getting a npc advantage at VoD and not a do or die decision, that you can either tactically do well or fail, then "duke it out at the flag stand to VoD arrives", will be the dominate and most effective strategy.

Vanquisher · Oct 04, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Blind is much easier to stop than a Paragon. Interrupts, Diversions, and enchantment strips all have such a massive effect bearing in mind the cost of the skills it's going to be using. Paragons however, provide strong armor increases, useful block additions, and helpeful pressure.

Obviously there is always going to be a requirement to change offensive skills as well as defensive skills, as nerfs to one side will almost certainly just mean people will max out on the other. The key is to find the right balance, and not just let physicals get shafted by whatever, or physicals destroy everything.

A M I T Y · Oct 04, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I like to see Split strategy as an attempt to cause as much havoc on your opponent’s Vent as possible . The idea is, the more information having to be relayed through Vent/Ts; the harder it is to identify the really game making/breaking information from the chaff.

The fact is it’s a lot easier to co-ordinate skill usage and communicate tactical information to your team mates when they can see exactly what you can see (Radar range). So in games of split where you have 2 and sometimes 3 separate ‘teams’ calling varying degree’s of status, Guilds that do not have the experience to navigate this volume of information are easily recognisable from the split veterans. Also, sadly, it’s far easier to send the SoR runner and a Blind Surger to camp base and get a warrior to run flags till VoD, just as it’s easier to run party wide protection than it is to rely on the active defence measures of yesteryear (Evil’s Return monks).

If more Guilds ran dedicated splits as a counter to 8v8 ‘Blockway’ you would see a lot more of what split strategy should be; Constant and fluid shifting of split configurations in order to force an advantage at either end. But until the passive defence options take a big enough hit, the 'Meta' will always be what delivers the lowest risk/reward factor. If paragons ever get hit so hard people don’t run them I expect Spirit Rits will step up to the plate as a suitable low maintenance replacement.

On a side note there are a lot of things the current VoD mechanic has wrong with it in regards to splitting, but by far the worst is the fact you can take your ‘Blockway’ straight to the lord at 19min, thereby ensuring neither lord moves to the flag stand and ever has to face npc superiority. This flawed game mechanic is best illustrated on Frozen isle, supposedly the most split friendly map in the game

Amity

Yue · Oct 04, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Assassins are the worst example of splitting in the game.

Yichi · Oct 04, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Assassins are the worst example of splitting in the game.

/agreed. Shadowstepping took most of the knowledge and skill of splitting out of the game and added a new dimension of "hey I think I'm good at split because I can instantly get out of the f'd up situation im in due to my lack of skill on playing a split."

Recall, AoD, Shadow Prison, Return, etc... are the worst thing that could have ever happened to splitting in this game.

linh · Oct 04, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Recall, AoD, Shadow Prison, Return, etc... are the worst thing that could have ever happened to this game.

Fixed. 12345

wuzzman · Oct 04, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

lol. Teleporting made splitting more effective. In fact factions season saw the most dedicated split builds and even better spilt strategies in guild wars. Otherwise any warrior with a speed boost and Sor/Snare/Runner ele would wtf pwn your ganker, hell your whole gank team.

Sor/runner is just too effective anti-gank defense.

Vanquisher you a bit forgetting how much annoying utility that Blind Bots used to carry.....and doesn't mean you can deal with it doesn't mean it's not effective all the same. We can easily deal with Aegis, DA or the various other layers of passive defense, individually. Unfortuntely Aegis comes in copies of 2-3, who can reliably keep track of a para using DA, and who interupts wards against melee every time? Besides blindbots generally prevent adreline spikes from going through. Its not hard to hit 1 when you see a warrior press shock.

Byron · Oct 04, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Otherwise any warrior with a speed boost and Sor/Snare/Runner ele would wtf pwn your ganker, hell your whole gank team.

Taking 2 people, one of them your flag runner, to rout a ganker is just what that ganker wants. A good splitter would see defenders coming well in advance, or would be told they were coming by his team, and wouldn't get dead.

Quote:

Sor/runner is just too effective anti-gank defense.

Rending touch tbh. Or burning arrow.