Curse

Seamus Finn · Sep 12, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Its unbelievable that you completely disregard RC's inability to self-cast and belittle SoD's superiority as "sometimes better". .

Even with RC most teams run draw for fear of dazing. Lots of RCs would run a mend touch if there was no stand draw. So how is the self-targetting so special about dismiss? When you split a monk cause your third monk(ele runner) isn't enough I suppose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

SoD is 10x more useful than Spirit Bond against Physical-based builds, which is to say, against just about every threatening team you will face. .

If you can spam it on recharge maybe. The bars you posted cannot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Let me clarify something: If GoLE, DS, etc were to dissapear, I personally would pick RC if given the choice. .

Right. And so you then argue...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

However, this argument is not about which skill is slightly better. Its about whether or not SoD would still be runnable if you took away its supporting cast. Without question, it would. .

If RC would be better pretty much unconditionally, SoD isn't actually viable is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

No way - If either skill is stronger, its Devotion Signet. I havent needed or wanted GoH on any bar I have run in the past few weeks. Proper defense has HP bars going down slow enough that Gift's speed will almost never matter - and in instances where it would, you should probably be casting a Prot or Dismiss instead.

If Gift's speed would never matter, why even run Devo? whatever you are healing will get wiped up by LoD's unless it's diverted, and I wouldn't run Devo incase the other monk gets diverted. Gift and Devo really arent comparable at all. Gift is an efficient single target semi powerheal. Devo is a slow, weak, "free heal" with a practical use that basically consists of topping off bars when theres nothing else to do, pushing up the bar of a ridiculously protted target, or throwing out a small heal because you have no energy and there's nothing else you can give the target. That basically comprises the only times where Devo would even finish casting. Anyhow, this is pretty ridiculous theory at this point.

twicky_kid · Sep 12, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Even with RC most teams run draw for fear of dazing. Lots of RCs would run a mend touch if there was no stand draw. So how is the self-targetting so special about dismiss? When you split a monk cause your third monk(ele runner) isn't enough I suppose?

Dismiss is heals if you are enchanted. Doesn't matter if you remove a condition or not. That's why its special.

wuzzman · Sep 12, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

explain, other then the horrible era of duel BLightmonks, that monks didn't need energy mangement? Hell even back in the day, monks would take Offering of Blood for energy management when it was good.

There are too many offensive options in the game lol...

Burton2000 · Sep 12, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Monks needed the energy management to power divine boon back then. You dont need e mange skills now to play monk.

wuzzman · Sep 12, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

oh well, if anet takes all of the suggestions we will see

Neo-LD · Sep 12, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Even with RC most teams run draw for fear of dazing. Lots of RCs would run a mend touch if there was no stand draw. So how is the self-targetting so special about dismiss? When you split a monk cause your third monk(ele runner) isn't enough I suppose?

The point is that Dismiss monks dont need draw or mend touch, and thus they free up skill slots. Whats difficult to understand about that?

Quote:

If you can spam it on recharge maybe. The bars you posted cannot

Well theres the primary disagreement then. It would still be perfectly useful even if you cant use it every 5 seconds. You dont need GoLE and/or DS to make 10e skills effective. You, and just about every other monk atm, is horribly spoilt by how spammable SoD is right now and fail to realize how good it would still be if it became slightly less so.

Quote:

If RC would be better pretty much unconditionally, SoD isn't actually viable is it?

I said I would prefer it, which is a very long way away from saying that its "unconditionally better." I imagine many people would prefer SoD outright, and indeed, in some cases (most notably VoD) SoD would be undeniably superior.

Quote:

Gift is an efficient single target semi powerheal. Devo is a slow, weak, "free heal" with a practical use that basically consists of topping off bars when theres nothing else to do, pushing up the bar of a ridiculously protted target, or throwing out a small heal because you have no energy and there's nothing else you can give the target.

If all you can use DevoSig for is topping off HP bars, then you monk much too conservatively. Be more daring and you will get much more out of it than you realize.

I am beginning to tire of going in circles with you, so if having the last word will make you feel alot better, then by all means continue reposting the same arguments.

RaginAsian · Sep 12, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Guys with Spirit Bond on them can still easily die, guys with SoD on them pretty much cant.

Easily die? How so? In order to die through spirit bond you would basically have to get hit for under 60 damage more than 10 times(which should be plenty of time for a heal), or you would have to be hit with a few huge consecutive criticals. Even then lets say 2 physicals crit for 110 3 times in a row each just for an example. Thats 660 damage. Now lets say your SB heals for around 80 health each time. Thats 80 X 6 which equals 480 damage mitigated through SB which means the target basically took 180 damage plus deep wound.

In short, the only way I see someone dying through SB is if its late.

pah01 · Sep 12, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

axe crits are 59 at 14 axe, a dude with sb on him when he is low in health can die to a crit or two from axe

Zuranthium · Sep 12, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Plus at VoD you avoid a lot of NPC fire, you avoid the conditions from attack skills (gain 80 health from an Eviscerate vs. not getting the damage and Deep Wound at all...hmm, let's see here...), missed hits mean that adren-users are not gaining their adrenaline and Assassin attack chains get screwed up, and attacks that DO get through are less damaging because of the armor bonus.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Sep 12, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The point is that Dismiss monks dont need draw or mend touch, and thus they free up skill slots. Whats difficult to understand about that? .

What is difficult to understand about that is that they don't free up a slot. The draw becomes even more important when you don't have an RC and really should be there. Is that difficult to understand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

You, and just about every other monk atm, is horribly spoilt by how spammable SoD is right now and fail to realize how good it would still be if it became slightly less so. .

People saw how useful it was when you didn't make it spammable very quickly. That's why it is placed in builds where it is very spammable. If I want to throw blocks up and intelligently prot targets without emanagement I would use guardian. If I am a late protter with SoA and Guardian, I want SoD and a lot of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If all you can use DevoSig for is topping off HP bars, then you monk much too conservatively. Be more daring and you will get much more out of it than you realize. .

Yes that is the only use i listed for devo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I am beginning to tire of going in circles with you, so if having the last word will make you feel alot better, then by all means continue reposting the same arguments.

I guess the arguments do sound the same when you don't read them. Having the last word doesn't make me feel as good as Zuranthium piggy-backing your position, to be honest.

Yichi · Sep 12, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Monks needed the energy management to power divine boon back then. You dont need e mange skills now to play monk.

You havent monked much in the current meta have you? How is GOLE and divine spirit NOT energy management skills?

Floski · Sep 12, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

You havent monked much in the current meta have you? How is GOLE and divine spirit NOT energy management skills?

Not even half the monks carry either of those. Divine Spirit is used mostly in combination with deny for obvious reasons. And with paraway, less teams carry aegis. I see plenty of mo/a mo/w. No need for gole

Neo-LD · Sep 13, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaginAsian

Easily die? How so? In order to die through spirit bond you would basically have to get hit for under 60 damage more than 10 times(which should be plenty of time for a heal), or you would have to be hit with a few huge consecutive criticals. Even then lets say 2 physicals crit for 110 3 times in a row each just for an example. Thats 660 damage. Now lets say your SB heals for around 80 health each time. Thats 80 X 6 which equals 480 damage mitigated through SB which means the target basically took 180 damage plus deep wound.

In short, the only way I see someone dying through SB is if its late.

Perhaps I should have worded it "People with Spirit Bond on them still take tons of damage that will need to be healed back up, and retain a small chance of dying. People with SoD on them pretty much stop taking all damage immedeately."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

People saw how useful it was when you didn't make it spammable very quickly. That's why it is placed in builds where it is very spammable. If I want to throw blocks up and intelligently prot targets without emanagement I would use guardian. If I am a late protter with SoA and Guardian, I want SoD and a lot of energy.

It had nothing to do with how good it was without spammability; it had everything to do with the fact that it was better (too good) with spammability.

Quote:

Having the last word doesn't make me feel as good as Zuranthium piggy-backing your position, to be honest.

That does kind of kill my credibility, doesnt it? =/

pah01 · Sep 13, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

You havent monked much in the current meta have you? How is GOLE and divine spirit NOT energy management skills?

yes but a lot of guilds run emanagement like that on the prot monk.

The Lod guy doenst carry emanagement much

Seamus Finn · Sep 13, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

You havent monked much in the current meta have you? How is GOLE and divine spirit NOT energy management skills?

That stuff is usually just on the SoD guy, because they way they are played is VERY energy intensive. The real energy management that is common in current builds is the layering of passive defense. Party-wide prots save way more energy than a p-drain can net you.

twicky_kid · Sep 13, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

That stuff is usually just on the SoD guy, because they way they are played is VERY energy intensive. The real energy management that is common in current builds is the layering of passive defense. Party-wide prots save way more energy than a p-drain can net you.

Which is why my team has been running guardian instead of RoF on the SoD. You don't really need energy management on a monk when you are not spamming aegis and SoD. I've been considering experimenting with 2 LoD monks with guardian using deny and divine spirit. It very energy friendly and allows room for hex breaker.

I think if monks would use guardian more and change to mo/mes with hex breaker it would destroy the current dom mes meta. That would take a huge junk out of a teams offense. The 3-6 sec window that dom mes creates for spikes would really throw a team off their game.

erk · Sep 13, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

We just remove SoD from a target during the spike. Never really seemed to be a big problem. It's more an annoyance during general pressure.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 13, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Which is why my team has been running guardian instead of RoF on the SoD.

thats all anyone has to hear to not finish the rest of the post. RoF is the benchmark of monking, and nothing comes close in terms of efficiency.

pah01 · Sep 13, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

thats all anyone has to hear to not finish the rest of the post. RoF is the benchmark of monking, and nothing comes close in terms of efficiency.

dont be a nob

healers boon plus divine boon plus infuse health > rof

Melody Cross · Sep 13, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Why do these conversations always seem to turn into monk wars?

The OP was about VoD. While defense is a large factor in surviving to VoD and getting a win, offense is equally important.

TBH, I don’t know if that is the direction Anet wants to go with high end PvP, but until we get an open beta for GW2 I’ll hold my peace.

I love the idea of GvG NPCs that don’t just stand there and take what you throw at them. This should really be implemented into the GvGs, and I’d like to see it used before VoD if possible.

That, I think, is the real problem here, and the itch in the OP’s heel. Teams are built to VoD, not to GvG.

I will say this much about defense. It’s not one skill—even an elite cast on the right person at the right time—that is shutting offense down. If it were, it would just be a matter of target swapping until the other side’s backline ran out of energy trying to keep up with you.

The problem is an overabundance of prot. Everywhere you turn, there’s something to block your attacks or reduce your damage. The GvGs I’ve obsed recently show even less tactics and strat than the OP gives credit for. Most games look like a pair of guilds sitting behind brick walls wailing at each other with hammers (or scythes, axes, etc.). In its current state of balance, it doesn’t matter how long it takes till VoD, you’re still more likely get there than not.

It is lack of good disruption to the backline, which makes people take more damage as a result—fewer options in the disruptive category of the game—and makes backlines fat and sassy to compensate with midlines taking more and more defense skills to help out. Of the original six classes, one of the most important has been left to stagnate from powercreep. Buff mesmers and you’ll see a drop in heavy defense. And I don’t mean buff the lazy man’s mesmer either. No more MoR/Diversion spam-click-three-buttons-for-the-whole-match-until-someone-calls-a-spike-and-then-click-four-and-five FTW. Buff real disruption skills. Enchant strips, E denial, etc. Make them capable of tearing up a backline like they used to be able to. As discussed in another thread, this would—some would say adversly effect—GvG by potentially creating spike windows. But what it ulitimatly does is disassemble a backline so that a roll can start. Once you have been rolled, you can either try to do what got you killed again (brick wall ftw woot) or change your tactics and try to find a way around the other sides—obviously—preferred playstyle.

While most people—including myself—shudder to think what another derv meta would do to the game, it wouldn’t hurt to give Grenth’s Dervs a nudge out of that dark corner they’ve been shoved into. A little buff like “Remove one enchantment, shout or chant from target foe” would go a long way to nullifying some of the overprot most bulds use today.

If the other side can tear an overly defensive build to pieces before VoD, fewer people will run VoDway…because it will lose.

GGs