Curse

Melody Cross · Oct 04, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Its not stackable so only 1 monk can bring it. Its in the healing line so it must compete with gift of health. Maybe increase casting to 3/4. 1/4 might be too fast for the effect.

No it doesn't. It needs to compete with RoF, the primary monk self-heal. Its the best thing out there, so why bring this piece of junk if you have to wait forever to get the effect?

More to the point: GoH is an off-target heal for prot bars that need some umph to keep red bars up in front and midline. Run up, throw it, run back, GGs. it is not a self-heal, it is not 1/4 second cast, and it is excellent to the point of being imba for the effect it has. Anet just can't nerf it in good concience because there's nothing to replace the skill for the job it performs.

Trying to make a Patient Spirit work on a prot bar as good as GoH does is an exercise in futility; if it could compete with GoH on a prot bar, it would be beyond imba on a healing bar. Trying to make a Healing prayers RoF is not...and this skill could fill that slot providing a different bonus than RoFs damage negation: ie, greater heal if it never strips early, but a heal when you need it if it does. With a shorter recycle, its spammable where you need it when you need it. With a longer uptime, its controllable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The 6 energy cap still stays the same. It would require less enchantments to be on the target. Its still highly spammable which makes it easy to interrupt, diversion, ect...

And still totally useless unless you spec your entire team for it. If you're throwing prots all over creation to get Boon Sigs energy, you're wasting energy to spam a diversion prone energy elite. If you maintain enchantments on self (smiters boon builds, SoA/PS chains under pressure) then you can use it where you need to instead of where the enchantments are jut to get some energy.

In its current form, and under the changes you suggest, Boon Sig fails to smart monking. it requires single target spam to be effective. Anet should have known better when they made it the way they did...but they didn't want boonprots using it and probably still don't. But I digress.

Boon Sig in its current form does not synergize with shout and weapon spell metas. Enchant strips force monks to reapply enchantments too regularly and then turn around a heal another target. Despite your theory, in practice, the skill would still blow chunks. Even if it did proc on self-enchants, it would probably still not be too great. But it might be viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

It has synergy with a few builds I know but the problem is it only procs when the foe "hits" with an attack. In the block meta that's few and far in between. Making it proc on attack would make it much more appealing.

Thats not a problem, and any builds it does sync with it would be using this--an elite energy manager--as a cover hex. That is a problem. At least as an enchantment, DZ would see play with monk primaries and not FC smite mesmers and open up midline defense changes for the next paragon nerf.

Once again, its the same problem as boon sig. You don't want to spam hexes--especially an elite hex--on targets that will not show you benefit. Pressuring frontline and rangers/paragons is well and good, but if you want to pressure a caster, this skill fails as anything but a cover hex. its too conditional for an elite slot outside of a monk's hands, and in a monks hands, its a waste to run in serious play. it maintains for only 18 seconds at 10, and running higher smite is asking the Spirit Bond monk to own you if you scourge healing spike the Lod. That translates to 3 enemies targeted for a safe cycle, and thats ugly for a cover hex.

Worse, its an elite hex that does nothing to the target. If it stole energy, it'd kick butt and be a competitive answer to paragons with infinite energy. It doesn't. It sucks. make it an enchantment, monks can use it...or make it steal energy up to 2 and give us some vengeance for all those "fear me" spammers.

GGs

Akaraxle · Oct 04, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Diversion 2 second cast, 15 energy, 15 recharge.
Glyph Lesser - 1...3 skills, 8...18 energy reduction.
Distracting Shot - 15 recharge.
Savage Shot - 8 recharge.
Mending Touch - 8 recharge.

Not too shabby suggestions, although 2c Diversion sounds dangerous and I don't get why and at which ES breakpoint you'd spec GoLE up to 3 spells.

Vanquisher · Oct 04, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger The Ranger

Diversion; is fine, MoR might get nerfed @ the next update though :\
GoLE; yea lol, make it worse than 2 years ago
Distracting Shot; QQ, my Flare got interrupted, now I cant spam anymore ;_; (its fine)
Savage Shot; been like this for 2 years, its countered by te block heavy metagame, blind, obstruction etc.
Mending Touch; I kinda agree, I think its a great skill... but maybe a little too good.

I think there are a lot of underpowered Assassin skills, Seeping Wound, Wastrels Collapse, Mantis Touch, Crippling Dagger to name a few, and many, many Shadow Art skills.

... Okay?
Diversion isn't fine - to say it is is ridiculous. Why do you think that pretty much every single Mesmer in todays game has a bar that is almost completely dedicated to spamming Diversion? A change in the energy cost and recharge, along with a buff to the cast time, would make it so the skill would require far better use in regards to timing than it currently needs.

Distracting Shot and Savage Shot, I should inform you, are two incredibly powerful skills. There is a reason that Rangers, when played by someone who is actually skilled at the class, are so incredibly effective. The problem is, very few people actually meet that condition, and thus Rangers are either not worth running, or too effective in general. Easily the most diverse class in the game, Rangers quite simply need their effectiveness reduced. Neither of the changes I proposed would completely destroy those skills at all. They would still be extremely useful, still two of the best interrupts you can take, and would put a greater requirement on less spamming of interrupts, and just bring Rangers down a touch.

Mending Touch is the reasoning behind people taking something like Shield of Regen on Flaggers now. Before you had to time your blinds, had a chance of getting interrupted, and had to actually put yourself in harms way when trying to keep NPC's alive. With reduce blind Runes and Shields available, timing is still obviously an issue, and it means Blind is more easily interruptable than before. This kind of change, I would hope, would encourage people to be more active in terms of defending a base, rather than standing out of range and having an uninterruptable incredibly massive buff to throw on an Archer or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Not too shabby suggestions, although 2c Diversion sounds dangerous and I don't get why and at which ES breakpoint you'd spec GoLE up to 3 spells.

15, basically 2 at 8. 2 second Diversion wouldn't be too bad when the energy cost is that much higher, and the recharge prevents it from just being spammed forever. The point is to make the skill far more effective when used correctly, rather than rewarding someone for just using it on recharge.

twicky_kid · Oct 04, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

No it doesn't. It needs to compete with RoF, the primary monk self-heal. Its the best thing out there, so why bring this piece of junk if you have to wait forever to get the effect?

If this skill is in competition with RoF (like you said) but you feel RoF is better then why a few post ago did you state it would be imba? 3 seconds with no heal is forever but with an initial heal the skill becomes more appealing. Will it see use? Who knows. If the suggestion is still inferior to RoF as you say then what's the harm?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

And still totally useless unless you spec your entire team for it. If you're throwing prots all over creation to get Boon Sigs energy, you're wasting energy to spam a diversion prone energy elite. If you maintain enchantments on self (smiters boon builds, SoA/PS chains under pressure) then you can use it where you need to instead of where the enchantments are jut to get some energy.

Finding 2 enchantment stacked is not hard hard to find at any given point. Of course its not going to fit into every build there is. With the fast recharge you can use it has a decent heal or for energy when ever needed. It would also be good for after spike heals. After all the prot being thrown on a spiked target you can recover some energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Thats not a problem, and any builds it does sync with it would be using this--an elite energy manager--as a cover hex.

Depends on your build. In mine we ran a necro to cover most of the hexes. On a caster a 5e 5 recharge hex is a good even if it is an elite. It still serves a purpose in killing that caster by covering all the other stuff you DON'T want removed.

In the end if the buff suggestions are still not up to "par" with current monk skills then what is the harm? Right now these skills have no hope of ever seeing any kind of real play. At least with some buffs they might find a home.

Riotgear · Oct 04, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Things that stand out in my mind as having potential that's largely damaged by skill crappiness:
- Ashpots in general.
- The various Elementalist "synergy" skills that never really resulted in much synergy: Steam, Elemental Flame, Chilling Winds.
- Whirling Axe and its big brother, Cleave
- Other party or AOE healing alternatives.

Patient Spirit is a skill I really don't get, it's basically a delayed Orison of Healing. I can't really see the thought process of designing it: "Know what would be more awesome than a powerful heal with the drawback of having to wait 3 seconds for it? A WEAK heal with the drawback of having to wait 3 seconds for it! LOLOL!!"

I can see it being useful on a Dervish and little else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

15, basically 2 at 8. 2 second Diversion wouldn't be too bad when the energy cost is that much higher, and the recharge prevents it from just being spammed forever. The point is to make the skill far more effective when used correctly, rather than rewarding someone for just using it on recharge.

Spamming Diversion on recharge was never particularly effective before MoR dropped that recharge to 5 (then 6) seconds. I'm having a hard time seeing how Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are overpowered as well. "Spamming of interrupts?"

Thom Bangalter · Oct 04, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

vanq, hitting rangers shouldn't be an issue, you say yourself that they're only effective if the right person is playing it, so how is it an issue when only like 3 people still playing can actually play ranger?

LifesRestorer · Oct 04, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

blessed light: 5e .75c 5r Heal target ally for 15...83...100 health and remove a condition and a hex. If a hex was removed this way, you lose 5 energy and heal target ally for an addition 15...51...60 health.

i suggested this a while back. it seems to be pretty well accepted.

I love you. Best suggestion EVER

Bargamer · Oct 04, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Buff Spawning Power, Jagged Bones, and Ashpots. I mean, it's fine to say that Rits might not need their Primary, but only if their secondaries were JUST THAT GOOD. But they're not, or they're perceived not.

Also, some sort of way to find/target minions better. Like "Click Minion icon to cycle through minions," like the Suggestion thread.

Melody Cross · Oct 04, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If this skill is in competition with RoF (like you said) but you feel RoF is better then why a few post ago did you state it would be imba? 3 seconds with no heal is forever but with an initial heal the skill becomes more appealing. Will it see use? Who knows. If the suggestion is still inferior to RoF as you say then what's the harm?

Because a 107 spell cast range self-heal at 12 HP for 5 energy over the course of 5.25 seconds IS imba. An 85 HP (conditional 43 if removed early) is not. Its more in line with Reversal of Damage and Vengeful Weapon in effect, and that makes it a good counterpart spell for RoF to bring in PvP and GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Finding 2 enchantment stacked is not hard hard to find at any given point. Of course its not going to fit into every build there is. With the fast recharge you can use it has a decent heal or for energy when ever needed. It would also be good for after spike heals. After all the prot being thrown on a spiked target you can recover some energy.

Only with prot spam or in teams with heavy enchantments. I will try to make this clear:

SPAMMING PROTS ALL OVER THE PLACE IS SLOPPY MONKING!

You apply where you need them. Soft heals like this--even with the heal increase--are very rarely needed on targets under pressure (the ones that require prots) and reserved for targets that are not taking much damage.

Self prots are a regular thing on a monk. Soft heals on heavily protected targets are not. They tend to be cleaning damage to targets that took some AoE damage, or have degen conditions on them. Monks disperse their skills based on need, not on energy. hitting players that are heavily protected with your energy manager is a W-A-S-T-E o f a soft heal, and asking them to buff it is still a waste of a soft heal.

Procs on enchantments of target--->wasting time and energy spamming on targets that don't need the heal.
Procs on enchantment applied to self--->cast Boon where you need to when you need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Depends on your build. In mine we ran a necro to cover most of the hexes. On a caster a 5e 5 recharge hex is a good even if it is an elite. It still serves a purpose in killing that caster by covering all the other stuff you DON'T want removed.

Then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one then. I want it buffed so I can use it. You want it buffed so you can. I still think its a waste of a skill. If I'm going to use my elite slot for a hex, i don't want it coming off anytime soon and I want it to hurt the other team. Using your elite slot for something you expect to get stripped (for no effect) is not intelligent build design imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

In the end if the buff suggestions are still not up to "par" with current monk skills then what is the harm? Right now these skills have no hope of ever seeing any kind of real play. At least with some buffs they might find a home.

The short-term harm of asking for imbalanced buffs--overpowered or underpowered--is that it makes you look a little foolish. You created this thread. Show some decorum about it instead of throwing up your hands when people find faults.

In the long-term: credibility-->window. If all players just blithely asked for whatever they want when it comes to skill balance, devs would not take threads like these seriously when they view them, would stop viewing them, and would go about skill balance without regard for what players can actually use. Professions would atrophy and die, or become so overpowered that devs would kill them to let other ones get some game time. I don't want that. I'd rather keep an eye towards balancing skills and help the devs help me.

GGs

Lorekeeper · Oct 04, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Patient Spirit is a skill I really don't get, it's basically a delayed Orison of Healing. I can't really see the thought process of designing it: "Know what would be more awesome than a powerful heal with the drawback of having to wait 3 seconds for it? A WEAK heal with the drawback of having to wait 3 seconds for it! LOLOL!!"

well i cant see it having much place in my GvG bar. GvG monk bars are cramped as it is.

But in HA monks have more room for artistic license. Much more than in GvG i have found. If i am in HA i would often not tell my team that i am using something different. Because A) i think ive monked enough to know if it will work or not, or B) i think ive monked enough to make it work, and i wouldnt try if i didnt think it was possible. After continual flawless matches i would then ping my suprise skill. Ive had mixed reactions in the time ive been playing, from people commenting how the skill is noob, to people asking how the hell i can use it. I generally prefer playing with people who can accept that some people can do things with skills others just cant do, rather than players who seem to think if you give the same old bar to anyone you will get the same results. Cookie cutter mentality can jump off a bridge imo.

So yes, ive used patient spirit in HA without it being a disaster, but on the other hand that might be more of an indication of the level of competitive play in HA rather than the skill actually being any good.

Great thing about HA is that because the level of competition is so low, you generally have more room for creativity and experimentation. Running the same old bars over and over and over in GvG can get pretty tedious, especially when the meta becomes so stagnant meaning monks dont need to change their bars that often. So going to HA can sometimes be a nice thing (sometimes lol) because you can run some new stuff that you wouldnt normally be able to bring.

zalxixmavon · Oct 04, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Signet of Strength - +0...8 dmg, 30 second recharge
Hundred Blades- 1/2-second activation and then play with the recharge. 6 seconds would be solid.
Coward - 2 second kd would increase the power without making it spammable. With stonefist warrior primaries can then get a 3 second kd.
Scavengers Focus - Needs a damage buff. +Dmg per condition would be interesting.
Weapon of Quickening - Recharge bonus should apply to all skills.
Melandrus Arrows - 24 second duration.
Magebane Shot - Can not be blocked.
Psychic Instability - Could use a buff, I don't know what. Perhaps a lower recharge or rework it to an interrupt that knocks down instead of a hex.
Disrupting Stab - Reduce recharge.
Anthem of Disruption - Back to 10 recharge.
Ballad of Restoration - Lower recharge a bit.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 04, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

With vanq's changes to diversion and glyph, you might as well run an E/Me..

Ranger interrupts are fine.

Vanquisher · Oct 04, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

vanq, hitting rangers shouldn't be an issue, you say yourself that they're only effective if the right person is playing it, so how is it an issue when only like 3 people still playing can actually play ranger?

Problem is, when put in a capable players hands, the Ranger probably triples in effectiveness. Although if you're not up to par you're just a burden on your team, if you are you're such a great asset you're worth your weight in gold. Rangers go from being the worst class to run if you're bad at it, to being the best class to run if you're good, and when you're good, they're too effective. Doubt I explained that well enough, but whatever.

Edit: This was seen already and Crip Shot was changed because of how effective it was as a character build. Introducing Mending Touch and Natural Stride increased the effectiveness. Nerfing Crip Shot back to 15 would be a bad idea because it would just stop people ever bothering to run it. Changing the interrupts would help tone down the class a little when played by massively capable players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitch

With vanq's changes to diversion and glyph, you might as well run an E/Me..

So?

yum · Oct 04, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Problem is, when put in a capable players hands, the Ranger probably triples in effectiveness. Although if you're not up to par you're just a burden on your team, if you are you're such a great asset you're worth your weight in gold. Rangers go from being the worst class to run if you're bad at it, to being the best class to run if you're good, and when you're good, they're too effective. Doubt I explained that well enough, but whatever.

Edit: This was seen already and Crip Shot was changed because of how effective it was as a character build. Introducing Mending Touch and Natural Stride increased the effectiveness. Nerfing Crip Shot back to 15 would be a bad idea because it would just stop people ever bothering to run it. Changing the interrupts would help tone down the class a little when played by massively capable players.

According to your reasoning, we should also nerf power block, power lock, power spike etc.... to oblivion since some haxers can interupt 1/4 s cast at ease

And btw, with the lame block meta atm, I don't think rangers can do much in interupting.

Age · Oct 04, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

They could fix endure pain as it is a broken skill been that way since release.

Jaen · Oct 04, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Problem is, when put in a capable players hands, the Ranger probably triples in effectiveness. Although if you're not up to par you're just a burden on your team, if you are you're such a great asset you're worth your weight in gold. Rangers go from being the worst class to run if you're bad at it, to being the best class to run if you're good, and when you're good, they're too effective. Doubt I explained that well enough, but whatever.

Edit: This was seen already and Crip Shot was changed because of how effective it was as a character build. Introducing Mending Touch and Natural Stride increased the effectiveness. Nerfing Crip Shot back to 15 would be a bad idea because it would just stop people ever bothering to run it. Changing the interrupts would help tone down the class a little when played by massively capable players.

So?

The interrupts don't need a nerf. In current blockway meta, at least half, if not more of the interrupts miss. If blockway were to go away they would still have to contend with blind/blurred/obstructions.

Oh and then there's also interrupt baiting.

Auron of Neon · Oct 05, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

They could fix endure pain as it is a broken skill been that way since release.

I hope you mean like... graphically broken? The skill itself is terribly bad. The only thing I can think of is how the HP bar doesn't reset after Endure ends until the endure whammo gets hit again. Maybe Anet could put in a pink block of HP on the bar (sort of like deep wound has gray).

But in reality, endure pain sucks, and I really hope anet doesn't waste their time.

Riotgear · Oct 05, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

I hope you mean like... graphically broken? The skill itself is terribly bad. The only thing I can think of is how the HP bar doesn't reset after Endure ends until the endure whammo gets hit again. Maybe Anet could put in a pink block of HP on the bar (sort of like deep wound has gray).

This has been a problem with EVERYTHING that affects max HP, including deep wound.

erk · Oct 05, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

You cant have warrior's cunning on the same recharge as expose defense. One can be removed, the other is just a skill. There need to be a difference since one is unstrippable.

Easy fix, make Warrior's Cunning and enchant as well. I think it's important that a Warrior have this type of skill without having to use an Assassin secondary.

Vanquisher · Oct 05, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Saying Ranger's don't need to get toned down, especially considering the nerfs that everyone is calling for to defensive skills, just shows a lack of thinking about the reprecussions of any significant nerf or buff to any skill.

"In the current blockway meta" - what about after that? Are we just going to see everyone run the KGYU-esque condition build again?

Quote:

According to your reasoning, we should also nerf power block, power lock, power spike etc.... to oblivion since some haxers can interupt 1/4 s cast at ease

I'm pretty sure they have longer recharges and a cost that actually means something.

Quote:

The interrupts don't need a nerf. In current blockway meta, at least half, if not more of the interrupts miss. If blockway were to go away they would still have to contend with blind/blurred/obstructions.

Oh and then there's also interrupt baiting.

K, so after blockway gets nerfed, which it should, interrupts won't miss with anywhere near the frequency they currently do. Blind/Blurred/Obstructions is a ridiculously stupid argument. Blind because of Mending Touch being on every single Rangers bar, as well as external condition removal. Blurred because the only time it's going to affect any Ranger is in a hex build, when you want to be talking more about hex stacks, and Obstructions just because.