Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 09, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That's true until a Derv or other sin hits with Wild blow/strike. 2 SA sins are pretty bad. 2 wars and a 1 sin is where its at as far as effectiveness. Personally I've had no energy problems on the sin. A good pause between combos is more than enough to keep your energy up all the time.

Hex shut down, heavy paragon dmg, ward vs melee, enchant removal and all the other usual stuff shut down the SA sin. Diversion is really a killer though. If any attack skill gets hit your entire chain is down for almost 1 minute. Give the meta time to respond before we just nerf it.

Not sure what meta you are watching or playing in. But the 2 SA builds being run are far more effective atm. Ward of Melee does a lot verse an SA sin inorite??

swift88 · Oct 09, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

tell deadly paradox good bye

Seamus Finn · Oct 09, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

No, It is a suggestion to run something different rather than blockway. Beside, when did I write something close "... nerf sight beyond sight?"
The combo is nowhere near Grenth with things like Shield Up around and the fragility of assasin's offensive combo: 1 of the atk skill is shut down and the sin is done.

Oh I forgot that shield's up shuts down unblockable sins. Oh wait, it doesn't have any effect on them even if they weren't unblockable. Keep in mind when you talk about grenth that it had substantial downtime, and the player had to choose between having one unblockable enchant removal(wild blow) or partial immunity from blind(sight beyond sight). The sins get both and 2 more skill slots to spare.

Diversion can be effective until team start maintaining veil or jumps through other hoops in teh build lab to make sure the sins work as planned. These guys are mesmers and wars in one package. It consolidates a lot of characters and then it's just a matter of making your gimmick work.

Kyp Jade · Oct 09, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Defensive Anthem:

Functionality Changed to 50% block attack skills only

yum · Oct 09, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Oh I forgot that shield's up shuts down unblockable sins. Oh wait, it doesn't have any effect on them even if they weren't unblockable. Keep in mind when you talk about grenth that it had substantial downtime, and the player had to choose between having one unblockable enchant removal(wild blow) or partial immunity from blind(sight beyond sight). The sins get both and 2 more skill slots to spare.

Diversion can be effective until team start maintaining veil or jumps through other hoops in teh build lab to make sure the sins work as planned. These guys are mesmers and wars in one package. It consolidates a lot of characters and then it's just a matter of making your gimmick work.

Gimmick? lol. 1 SA sin makes the whole team gimmick

And what is gimmick about that build actually? 1234567 to get a d-shot or be diverted?
Shield Up doesn't shut the sin down, it only makes his attempt to regain fuel harder. Beside you can just remove hit assasin remedy or sight. -_- Not to mention a good shock axe can hinder the sin's ability to train severely.
There are counters: hexeway, e-denial, or just run the similar SA build and train the sin since he only has 70 AL. And the cries for nerf are just around the blockway meta. Why cant we try something else?
Anyway, since when GW became buildwar?

Symbol · Oct 09, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

If Assassin's Remedy is to be changed I'd like to see it changed in a way that doesn't destroy the skill, because "Removes conditions on hit" is a completely unworkable mechanic.

moriz · Oct 09, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

make it "removes a condition if the following hit is a critical hit".

now idea how to make it work that way though :S

yum · Oct 09, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

My suggestion:
Assasin remedy: enchantment spell: your next 1...8 atks remove 1 condtion. For each condition removed this way: you lose 7..4..3 energy or assasin remedy ends.
Or
For each condition removed this way, the skill is disable for additional 9..5...3 seconds.
What do you guys think?

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 09, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

1234567 to get a d-shot or be diverted?

Shield Up doesn't shut the sin down, it only makes his attempt to regain fuel harder. Beside you can just remove hit assasin remedy or sight. -_- Not to mention a good shock axe can hinder the sin's ability to train severely.
There are counters: hexeway, e-denial, or just run the similar SA build and train the sin since he only has 70 AL (

What part about "unblockable sins that remove their own blinds" is hard to understand?

According to Shields up functionality how it this shutting down SA sin you should ask yourself. Regain fuel, huh?

Yea i'm pretty sure anything can be diversioned and D-shotted, and this makes all skills balanced , i get it. I'm pretty sure 'sin remedy gets covered up quick for any competant team.

- many posting need to read skill descriptions, it would be nice.

yum · Oct 09, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

What part about "unblockable sins that remove their own blinds" is hard to understand?

According to Shields up functionality how it this shutting down SA sin you should ask yourself. Regain fuel, huh?

Yea i'm pretty sure anything can be diversioned and D-shotted, and this makes all skills balanced , i get it. I'm pretty sure 'sin remedy gets covered up quick for any competant team.

- many posting need to read skill descriptions, it would be nice.

Reread the description of assasin remedy: ATK skills not atk. Unblockable and unblindable 100% of the time is what you mean?

He's only unblockable when he uses atk skills not atk. Why don't you get it?
The different b/t assasins and warriors is: if the warrior gets d-shot 1 of his atk skills, he's still capable of killing, though less effective. On the contrary, if any of the sin atk skill gets d-shot, he's useless for the next 20 s. Get it now?
Btw, when did I say Shield Up can shut down anything completely? If you want to shut everything, run 8 mesmers.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 10, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

SA sin's combo recharges every 4 seconds it take 3-4 seconds to complete the combo, how does blind stop him. It doesn't. I get it, you have no idea how the build works. Nobody cares about the sins auto-attacks. I didn't mention unblockable 100% of the time, just the time it actually matters. (during the combo)

I was mostly noting that "Shields up" doesn't in any way give him trouble "regaining his fuel" It blocks projectile attacks, which sins don't have. Nor did i mention the words "shut down completely." Merely noting that mentioning "shields up" to slow 'sins further discredits any suggestions you're making.

Get a clue and stop posting please.

Seamus Finn · Oct 10, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Reread the description of assasin remedy: ATK skills not atk. Unblockable and unblindable 100% of the time is what you mean? .

More like: unblockable and unblindable whenever it matters, which is just about as good as 100%.

Yichi · Oct 10, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

..., ward vs melee, ...all the other usual stuff shut down the SA sin.

That snip from the comment you made tells me that you have absolutely no idea what youre talking about.

Mickey · Oct 10, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I had an idea for Deadly Paradox.

Same skill as before but take away the bonus of halves casting time for Deadly Arts skills, and keep the rest for all the other aspects of an assassin.

DP bar fixed.

Still an ok bar, but the skill activation time is IMBA imo.

twicky_kid · Oct 10, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Not sure what meta you are watching or playing in. But the 2 SA builds being run are far more effective atm. Ward of Melee does a lot verse an SA sin inorite??

Go watch some of Be Team's matches. SA removes the prot and wars train the target into the ground or enough to drain the monk's energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

That snip from the comment you made tells me that you have absolutely no idea what youre talking about.

Oh really. Try to spam your combo inside ward vs melee and see how long your energy will last. GFS and Wild Strike are not so much an issue of energy but SA is.

The only way to keep your energy up is to connect with auto attacks for the critical. If you cannot connect with auto attacks you will run out of energy fast.

The meta will evolve just give it time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

I was mostly noting that "Shields up" doesn't in any way give him trouble "regaining his fuel" It blocks projectile attacks, which sins don't have. Nor did i mention the words "shut down completely." Merely noting that mentioning "shields up" to slow 'sins further discredits any suggestions you're making.

For 5...10 seconds, you and all party members within earshot gain 24 armor against piercing damage and 50% chance to block incoming projectile attacks.

It does not block the daggers but it does add 24 armor for you. That is pretty hefty reduction to the already small dmg from daggers.

yum · Oct 10, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

SA sin's combo recharges every 4 seconds it take 3-4 seconds to complete the combo, how does blind stop him. It doesn't. I get it, you have no idea how the build works. Nobody cares about the sins auto-attacks. I didn't mention unblockable 100% of the time, just the time it actually matters. (during the combo)

I was mostly noting that "Shields up" doesn't in any way give him trouble "regaining his fuel" It blocks projectile attacks, which sins don't have. Nor did i mention the words "shut down completely." Merely noting that mentioning "shields up" to slow 'sins further discredits any suggestions you're making.

Get a clue and stop posting please.

plz... you're telling me that you get killed simply by the GFS, WS, SA combo?That build is no spike build imo. The problem is not the combo but how often the sins can execute that combo. I ran it. And the main reason for its success was that the other team's monks wasted their energy by throwing SB, and SOD on my target

.
You don't care about the sin auto atk; that is reasonable. But the sins running that build care. W/o crit hits, energy is a big issue if they want to constantly pressure the other teams.
And about shield up...I was wrong. I wanted to mention a skill that +24 armor which turns out to be "Watch yourself". My bad. Well, the damage of SA is severely gimped by high AL.
Sins aren't warriors. They have the ultimate weakness that many people mentioned: their combo needs all the skills in it to work which makes them very prone to shut down. Not to mention they cant really switch target.
Again, run something different than blockway.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 10, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The sins have 3 slots for whatever utility they want. I have seen soldier's defense on these sins pretty often, letting them push as far as their paragons would allow(which is basically wherever they want), without fear of linebacking or warrior pressure in just about any form.

In practice, the Shattering Assault sin has major energy problems without 13 crit strikes. With 13 Crit Strikes and 14 Dagger, you end up with a 2 second Soldier's Defense, which is not scary at all. It might save the sin from a spike, but regular pressure is still a huge threat. You can sort of get around this by taking Golden Lotus Strike to manage energy, but you suck when you miss it, and you're trying to hit through a completely un-disrupted blocking defense.

When guesting for WASD against you guys, I played that build without assassin's remedy, and the offense felt very weak when your b-surge was up. If you had disrupted Humility, you probably would have stood up much longer in 8v8 confrontations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

But what good is LoD when the two sins converging = dead target? The sins pretty compactly shut down the basis for any teams defense. Then it is a question of where the last 3 slots and some leftover character slots are going to do to make sure the sins can drain and train.

Training is less effective with dual SA sins than you would think. You find yourself hitting into Blurred a lot, and the scythe AoE from a Melandru dervish breaks up your train nicely. When we played the build in Call, we'd usually split up our sins, then converge for spikes when needed.

But again, my intention is not to nerf SA sins out of existence. As boring as they are, I think they have a good effect on the meta, because they give teams an incentive to play more offensive builds. If they were blindable they would require significantly more support from the midline, which would allow a competent offense to outpressure them. A group that relies on spiking from within a defensive web in 8v8 will find that their defenses don't matter, and proceed to lose the match as a result.

That is probably where we differ. From reading your posts, it's clear that your issue is with the combo itself, and you feel it should be nerfed into oblivion. While I have no problem with heavily nerfing skills that I feel are bad for the game, SA sins can make a good impact if they're made a little more counterable.

Yichi · Oct 10, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Oh really. Try to spam your combo inside ward vs melee and see how long your energy will last. GFS and Wild Strike are not so much an issue of energy but SA is.

The only way to keep your energy up is to connect with auto attacks for the critical. If you cannot connect with auto attacks you will run out of energy fast.

.... You obviously havent played around with this very often then. The sins have more than enough energy to repeatedly spam their combo inside of ward v melee. add any aoe damage such as a water ele, fire ele, or splinter rit, and wards are never a problem because either 1 they die in the wards, or 2 they run out of them because they are useless and will kite towards npc's or anything that will elieviate the pressure.

Farin · Oct 10, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

If Shattering Assault sins change the meta then be my guest, keep them.

twicky_kid · Oct 10, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

.... You obviously havent played around with this very often then. The sins have more than enough energy to repeatedly spam their combo inside of ward v melee. add any aoe damage such as a water ele, fire ele, or splinter rit, and wards are never a problem because either 1 they die in the wards, or 2 they run out of them because they are useless and will kite towards npc's or anything that will elieviate the pressure.

I'll just quote some one that DOES know what he's talking about since he basically said the same thing I did. Over time the ward will wear down a SA sin's energy. Even enchant removal to take down Sin's Remedy is enough to stone wall them honestly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In practice, the Shattering Assault sin has major energy problems without 13 crit strikes. With 13 Crit Strikes and 14 Dagger, you end up with a 2 second Soldier's Defense, which is not scary at all. It might save the sin from a spike, but regular pressure is still a huge threat. You can sort of get around this by taking Golden Lotus Strike to manage energy, but you suck when you miss it, and you're trying to hit through a completely un-disrupted blocking defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

If Shattering Assault sins change the meta then be my guest, keep them.

Agreed its a much needed change.