Curse

moriz · Oct 18, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

i'm pretty sure E/Rt runners appeared AFTER NF. especially after the update that saw buffs to the water line. as such, i don't think mending touch had anything to do with E/Rt runners.

people went with E/Rt and not Rt/E was because spawning power back then did not affect weapon spell durations, and weapon of warding lasted quite a bit longer back then. as such, spawning power was quite useless in that template, and people went E/Rt because of energy storage.

anyways, now back to the debate:

the traditional counter to heavy physical overload builds were to either run one yourself, or to split it up with an offensive split. but in the era of highly defensive runners and LoD monks, the offensive split is more or less neutered. this allowed the overload build to not split and pound the remaining opponents into oblivion. objectively speaking, nerfing skills such as ZB and LoD might just have the desired effect.

however, a nerf to LoD will probably force people to move party healing to another character anyways, so we shouldn't nerf ZB at least, since the runner will probably be carrying heal party to compensate.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 18, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

If you destroyed mending touch, cut down SoR a bit, and buffed heal sig, you might be able to see eles that relied on flash to protect themselves come back (though bsurge would probably be more common). A big part of the problem is that, for split defense, bflash doesn't work anymore due to mending touch. See if people start running flash for defense and trying to pack more utility onto their runners if mending touch is out of the question.

Greedy Gus · Oct 18, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

You guys are pretty far off the topic now.

Lorekeeper · Oct 19, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

You guys are pretty far off the topic now.

actually... in a roundabout way we are not

if flag runners become less defensive... split becomes more effective, and splitters need more of their own heal utilities. This in turn will dilate warrior builds or at least 1 of them, by putting heal sig and an energy based sprint on their bar perhaps even a condition removal (thats 3 slots for utility). By putting sprint or any other energy based speed buff onto a warriors bar instead of rush (i quite liked dash with yaa and signet of malice) you force that warrior to frenzy more carefully... which in turn will help to moderate physical dmg which is the topic of the thread.

twicky_kid · Oct 19, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Evisc is the gold standard because its an unconditional DW that gets followed by executioner's. The other weapons fail because the DW isn't first in the chain and are conditional. Sword and Hammer still have their purpose but when spiking is the main source of kills nothing is going to compare to evisc + execu.

As far as frenzy being OP I had to chuckle a little. Warriors live and die by frenzy. Most warrior deaths come from frenzy spiking. In the hands of a bad player they'll get wiped. A good player on the other hand makes great use of it. Honestly we need more skills like it. I'd be happy to see more skills that promoted skilled usage.

Mending touch destroyed splits. Conditions like blind and cripple used to be your main defense vs a split. Hexes are unreliable without doing an overload. Most can be interrupted rather easily also.

I don't see any reason why I should not run a Mo/D runner. It can heal, run fast, and cripple like no tomorrow. Split offense has gotten to the point where running anything less than a healer on runner will hurt your team. Weapon rit runners are not bad either and will give a huge advantage at VoD. Both give great stand support.

Just my thoughts.

Ensign · Oct 19, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

how would you un-nerf weapon of warding? And why would people choose to run the ele/rit instead of the SoR+mend touch/guardian ele/mo? Or the Zb+mend touch+guardian+sb monk?

You un-nerf Weapon of Warding by giving it a real duration at moderate spec again. People chose to run Ele/Rit for more offensive power out of that character slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

correct me if im wrong but werent crip shot rangers quite rare back in the ele/rit flagger days?

They were pretty rare back then yes, YAA was still the metagame and that was the snare of choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i think mend touch that came with NF explained the disappearance of the ele/rit more than anything, but please correct me if im wrong.

The Ele/Rit didn't exist before Nightfall, before that it was all EProd runners. Ele/Rit disappared when Weapon of Warding got beaten to death with the nerf bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

with crippling shot back to 10energy and seeing much play, i dont think any runner without mend touch would be very effective.

Mending Touch really doesn't do all that much against Cripshot, as the cripple goes right back on anyway. Blurred Vision is a much bigger deal than Mending Touch in that paricular matchup.

Riotgear · Oct 19, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Evisc is the gold standard because its an unconditional DW that gets followed by executioner's.

Evisc is the gold standard because there isn't really anything better on a spike than +damage and a deep wound, and the rest of the typical axe bar can't be improved much by swapping the skills with elites.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You un-nerf Weapon of Warding by giving it a real duration at moderate spec again. People chose to run Ele/Rit for more offensive power out of that character slot.

E/Rt runners were GOLD. Such a perfectly balanced template. We need runners with REAL Elites again.

v o i d · Oct 19, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

If you un-nerf Weapon of Warding you get E/rit runners back, which in my opinion were the most offensive capable runners and also the most interesting to play. Plus it makes Ranger/Ele/warrior split build possible again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You un-nerf Weapon of Warding by giving it a real duration at moderate spec again. People chose to run Ele/Rit for more offensive power out of that character slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

E/Rt runners were GOLD. Such a perfectly balanced template. We need runners with REAL Elites again.

Agreed. A viable E/Rt would be a nice runner alternative.

Lorekeeper · Oct 19, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

im not so convinced buffing weapon of warding would bring people away from SoR or ZB runners.

but im more than willing to be open to giving it a try to see what happens... so its just a matter of us convincing Anet of this suggestion...

is there no other way of promoting split play other than a buff to weapon of warding?

what about buffing heal sig to 1 second cast and/or lower armour penalty?

how about buffing ether prodigy?

twicky_kid · Oct 19, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

how about buffing ether prodigy?

As long as mending touch removes blind as fast as bflash can inflict e prod won't return.

Lorekeeper · Oct 19, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

As long as mending touch removes blind as fast as bflash can inflict e prod won't return.

* mending touch - now removes 1...2...3 conditions from touched target ally

* weapon of warding - duration increase to?

* healing signet - activation time reduced to 1 second, reduced armour penalty to -20. increased recharge to 5-6 seconds.

* ''You're all alone!'' - increased duration of cripple and weakness to 8 seconds

* ether prodigy - reduced damage to 2 per energy gained.

i must say i miss the days of w/a gankers... signet malice+yaa battles were pretty fun... seriously!

Captain Robo · Oct 19, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

You have to keep in mind that in order to increase the viability of splits, you need to buff skills across numerous classes in order to ensure that we don't have a single "definitive" split class.

That will make things just as stale as they are now.

And for the record, Signet of Pious Restraint is total bullshit. Not even water eles can snare that well; runner battles become completely one-sided if that skill comes into play. The recharged should be halved if an enchantment is removed, not instant.

I Angra I · Oct 19, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I loved E/Rt runners and splittable E/Rt's in general because of the flexibility that the bar had. You brought two or three non-elite rit skills for defense including weapon of warding, and the rest of the bar could be whatever ele skills you needed. Most of the time it was icy shackles but I remember seeing some mind blast E/Rt's also that were splittable.

And the best thing about them was that they were really strong, but not really overpowered at all.

Seamus Finn · Oct 19, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

is there no other way of promoting split play other than a buff to weapon of warding?

Since the thread has been so derailed I guess I can point out that these monk runners are only good responses to set splits that can split one way or splits managed by poor players. Split shouldn't be more alive if people started running a WoW ele(if they did appear on account of this it would only be due to misconceptions of the GW base, which wouldn't actually be that surprising I suppose).

ax mastery · Oct 19, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

E/Rt runners were GOLD. Such a perfectly balanced template. We need runners with REAL Elites again.

Sin shadow steps are a huge problem with this. E/Rt's with like water trident just die to sins with shadow prison and expose. Expose isn't the real problem imo, its shadow prison and the like.

If a sin had just expose, the runner still has a few options even though wow doesn't work. Snares blah kiting blah etc are still ways to survive, however, with prison, snares have no effect. Elites that promote skilled play like water trident are useless, so they have to take gay and annoying defensive skills. Imo, killing shadow steps will see an enormous improvement to splitting.

Something like: Shadow Prison: 75e, 5c, 120r. You shadow step to target foe and lose all but one health. This skill causes exaustion.

Captain Robo · Oct 19, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

The problem is not with shadow steps, it's with Shadow Prison.

The ability to teleport and tweak out is all the assassin has going for it, really.

ax mastery · Oct 19, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The problem is not with shadow steps, it's with Shadow Prison.

The ability to teleport and tweak out is all the assassin has going for it, really.

There are problems with non sp shadow steps also... like the ability to easily get out of bodyblocks that took skill to set up. And to overextend then jump back right before getting spiked.

So do you like my suggestion on how to 'balance' shadow prison. I, for one, vote for it.

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ax mastery

Sin shadow steps are a huge problem with this. E/Rt's with like water trident just die to sins with shadow prison and expose. Expose isn't the real problem imo, its shadow prison and the like.

I never died to a solo Sin as an E/Rt. Use Blurred Vision better?

If there are TWO Sins (which is what everyone does now; haven't seen a solo dedicated ganker in a long time) and you've got no support, SoR doesn't matter anyway. You're still going to die. SoR is useful because it gets around interrupts and that's about it (a rather big "it", of course, enough to make SoR Elems very common before Weapon of Warding was nerfed in the first place). Funny how Weapon of Warding was nerfed because of the Spawning Power buff considering there are still NO good Rit builds that can even run a 14 Resto/13 Spawning spec.

~Z

ax mastery · Oct 20, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Blurred Vision

Brain Fart. Thanks. But shadow prison still makes snares and kiting irrelavent, which kicks two counters to melee.