Curse

rohara · Aug 30, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

remove heroes from pvp because one team build involving heroes is too powerful? lawl. lrn2logic.

Seamus Finn · Aug 30, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

remove heroes from pvp because one team build involving heroes is too powerful? lawl. lrn2logic.

When I hear a logical argument for keeping them in a Player vs. Player formats that isn't hero battles and we can move onto the logic of the arguments against them. And sorry but, "my guild can't field 8 players for an 8 player format and but we still want to rape everyone who can" doesn't work for me, nor should it work for anyone else interested in "logic".

RhanoctJocosa · Aug 30, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

It has nothing to do with whether the build is too powerful or not; it's the fact that you're fighting BOTS, not real people who are skilled like you.

Servant of Kali · Aug 30, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

remove heroes from pvp because one team build involving heroes is too powerful? lawl. lrn2logic.

Exactly. That's no flaw in logic, so I don't know why you're trying to support your own opinion by logic.

If a skill is only overpowered in one build, it will get nerfed. For instance, Wearying Strike.

So, using the same logic, we can come to the conclusions that if there's a single build that makes heroway overpowered, the heroes need to go. Or skills they use, but that would take too many nerfs for nothing. As you can see, logic supports more us than you.

BlackEagle · Aug 30, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

removing them is just a scapegoat for bad play - if you ask izzy: he believes he can outplay a hero in every aspect because hes human and heroes think once per second.

Accordingly, being a human, one gvging against heroes should think logically to beat them: You know they will overextend, you know they will cast in predictable patterns to interupt, you know they will cast through diversion, you know they don't cast when they are moving. Then again, maybe you don't.

Hypothetically, I start a new guild and invite 7 people with real life metal disabilities. Long story short, they lose to a team with heroes- should the heroes be at fault for being too powerful? Should anything be done because of our own inability to outhink a static mindset?

You have close to 1000 skills at your disposal, try using them, if you honestly believe heroes are too powerful for gvg, if you think heroes are that much of a problem. When you see heroes win a monthly, then concider removing heroes, until then, adapt like people need to, in order to win against any overpowered build.

But you're missing the point, it shouldn't be: "Can we beat them?" Because, why should I have to? It is not whether I should have to outplay a hero, or whether I'm better than a hero, it's whether the majority of teams who play with heroes do better because they have them. A lot of teams do very well because they have heroes, but if they had humans in those positions they wouldn't do as well.

Example, we faced a guild running heroway and got pushed back into base. We pushed them out hard and had about 20 seconds for guard + lord, we couldn't quite kill them so got driven out and they killed the lord in time. Then, we faced them running 8 human players, and rolled them in 4 minutes. So, how can you say they aren't overpowered in as much as they are increasing the quality of another team? Even if they aren't bettter than your standard r100 player, they are a lot better than many r600+ players so that means these teams can push into higher ranks then they would be without the heroes.

I'm sorry, but Izzy saying that because he's better than them so he can beat them so it isn't a problem is just short sighted, and I don't even mean because some guilds can't beat it. But why should I have to waste 20 minutes of my time fighting heroes to either lose when we wouldn't have done, or have a drawn out victory that was hard work when without heroes we would have steamrolled them in 4 minutes?

Alaris · Aug 30, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I voted "I don't care" but really, I would have voted "put no restrictions". I think allowing more heroes (and henchs if needed) has several benefits:

It lets more casual players bypass the PUG headache.

It allows expert players to design their team.

It gives other players variety in opponents.

Bloodreaver · Aug 30, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Here is my take on heroes in GvG:

Yes, heroes are only good in a few builds, which ofcourse is Heroway. The reason why Heroes are overpowered in that build is quite simple:
- the tainted flesh/death nova Hero(es) have inhuman targeting, it's impossible to keep tainted flesh up and keep death nova going, Heroes can which makes them too superior
- Cast timing and cancelling is also done with inhuman accuracy
The "only" way to prove that heroway sucks without the heroes, is either by having a "test" weekend (where ofc people are play the build with full human players) or by ingame testing by Anet themselves (obviously THEY dont mind the heroes, so we wont need to expect an automatic update about it).

Heroes in GvG? absolutely NOT! Not 1, they ruin the game. Some people go "lol, you lose against heroway? haha noobs", but they forget that most builds are build to do something they excel at, usually that is not hitting minions, keeping spirits down and getting overpowered by 2 thumpers and hexes. The other stupid thing, is if you split, they will turtle till VoD and simply wipe you, there is NOTHING that is holding them back, unless you can INSTANTLY wipe their healers AND hardrezzers...

Now those that say "it's only overpowered for one build, big deal", you obviously dont play GvG enough. I personally think that about 5% of the ladder (50 guilds) run heroway whenever they play. This usually means they play 10-15 matches, because they win fast (or takes 22 minutes...). 50 guilds x 10 matches means 500 guilds will lose unnecessary rating, because 4 people think they need to ruin the game. Let's see you in a top50 guild and losing 4 or 5 rating points because you lose to a rank2000+ heroway. It's not because they suck, it's because heroes are overpowering that build. Remove the heroes and that build ends up dead in the water.

For those that want to play "casual GvG", there is no such thing and this shouldnt be your aim AT ALL. Either you focus on it regularly with 8 people or you dont play, simple as that. If your guild has only 5 members but wants to GvG, tough luck. Either join a guild with enough members, or get enough members on board to make a full 8 man team. No bullshit about it.

BAN THE HEROES FROM GVG!!!

About heroes in HA:
I dont really care, i never play it anyway. But for sake of others: BAN THEM FROM HA!!!

- Blade

Kyp Jade · Aug 30, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Ban from everything but PvE
(Hero Battles is PvE)
Not retyping all my opinions

Page 2 of this thread
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0182437&page=2

And several pages of this thread
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10176249

If your lazy
No heroes OR Hench to fill out your party.

psycho854 · Aug 30, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

i completely agree!

ban heroes from gvg. as said: its Guild versus Guild and not Guild versus 4tards + 4 heroes...

for HA i dont bother. but a restricition would definatly be nice.

i dont mind ppl having alesia in the team or fighter hench. these are calculated "last chance" possibilitys for a bit of fun!

heroes on the other hand are often first choice! so just get rid of them in high level PvP !

Servant of Kali · Aug 30, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

I don't understand; if Guild doesn't have enough people for GvG, cant they go to TA or AB?

And if they have more than 4 people... like.... 5 or 6, how bout checking Alliance or Friends list? OK friends list is tricky but still...

Randvek · Aug 31, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Heroes have one big plus side and one big down side, in my mind.

Plus: you never have a hard time finding them. They'll run any build you want, they won't complain, and if you want to play until 4am, heck, they'll come along!

Down: they are way too good at 10% of the things you need to do to PvP, and way too bad at the other 90%. They aren't "just right" on anything.

I'm not a member of an elite guild, and I don't have any high-ranked friends. So, for me, the plus outweighs the minus. I think it just gets down to the age-old question: do you want to favor the few, dedicated players, or the many, casual players? GW staff doesn't want to do either, so they are kinda stuck.

BlackEagle · Aug 31, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

Plus: you never have a hard time finding them. They'll run any build you want, they won't complain, and if you want to play until 4am, heck, they'll come along!

So will henchmen. Yes, some of them have bad builds, but if you aren't playing competitively, and just want to play, then, who cares?

Ra Lutari · Aug 31, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Okay so I just read every single post on this thread throughly and completely so that I know what people are saying and can make my points perfectly. This topic is heated and has some valid points on both sides. Yes heroes are very good at a few builds and people exploit that intentionally, but there are also the casual players that have trouble getting 8 players for HA or GvG. Heroes are nice in the fact that they easily fill slots and the like... but this is where their advantages are nothing compared to their disadvantages.

I am not a huge PvP person for a few reasons. First is that I have a hard time getting players in GvG because my guild (though wonderful) isn't huge on PvP and as for HA (which I play almost every day I have a chance to) It takes awhile to get a pug that is decent (especially since I just finally reached Rank 3 yesterday) but this is where the issues roll in. In the last few months I was able to get into a mostly guild group on a daily basis. The players were all at least medium skilled players.. and we had some great ideas for builds and they worked good for most situations in HA... However we then started facing 4 out of every 5 teams with heroway and since then we hardly ever win because of the fact that the build is far to powerful with the heroes. I went and played heroway a few times to see what made it so powerful and it really is the AI... They are too good at those few builds they use. Yes some teams can take them out... but I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of players cannot beat the people who play against it. I find that there are hardly any pug groups that are not heroway and on top of that there are too many guild groups running it for any casual player to be able to win unless they play the same build...

Anyway, here is what I want to say... How can a casual player get into PvP if there is a build out there that stomps almost any team build out there? How can a casual player get anywhere when 4 times out of 5 they face what seems to be an imposible team... Maybe I just suck and the teams I get into suck... but to me the fact that I have had such little success against heroway no matter who is playing it (tards or experianced players included) makes me wonder what it is. When I played in heroway I noticed a few things (usually I was LoD) First only times I did anything was spikes... and even then the N/Rts had that covered... Every time I face a heroway or something like it, my team gets rolled 90% of the time. We made an anti heroway bar... designed to take out heroway, and it was still a struggle... and when we didnt face heroway we were screwed... I personally think that the argument that it allows casual players to play more is totally negated by the fact that any casual player is either forced to use this cheap build or fail miserably most of the time.

In theory heroes in PvP isnt a bad thing, but in practice the ONLY time i see heroes is in the same exact build... which to me makes me wonder if its worth nerfing skills or just removing the heroes... Limiting it to two heroes didnt help either in my oppinion... I find that they are much less used for party fillers then to create a build that is just down right unfair. All in all heroes should just be banned from HA and GvG. Allow them in unranked GvG but no more... It is just too unfair with the heroway bars for anyone trying to get into pvp seriously to even start. How can someone learn when 90% of the time they fail against the same team and even when you have a bar made to take it out you find yourself wastinng 20 minutes for something that shouldn't take nearly as long.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 31, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

This debate is as pointless as which is better PvE or PvP?

We all know the thread would go on endlessly, we known people will get angry and flame each other, we know each side has valid points, and we know each side will fight to the death for their right to play the game how they want to.

But in order to answer some of the arguments brought up, I'll just put it in Q/A form for simplicity:

Q: If I only have 4 people, why don't I go TA/AB instead of GvG with heroes?
A: I think TA/AB have weaker rewards for their play, are not as fun, nor as organized. When I run heroway for my guild, it is very coordinated - as much as it would be with full humans. I don't run the shitty N/Rt builds which ruin Heroes' reputation in PvP, I don't run retardedly overpowered builds; but I run a normal, damage filled build. I find it fun, it makes my E-Peen huge, and allows me the ability to fully control my team, because face it: coordinated people are much harder to find in GvG now a days. Not only this, but the rewards, faction, are meaningless, which is all you get for TA/AB where in GvG, you get reward points and rating.

Q: Why should I waste 20 minutes of my time fighting a hero build when I could roll their team in 4 minutes?
A: Challenges are fun: if the team is better with heroes, enjoy the challenge. This game wasn't meant to be for people who expect to win every game because, you wont. Perhaps the team your fighting just wants to have fun gvging as much as you do - and they want to run the build they want to run, with the people/heroes controlling the builds they want as they please. Who are you to tell us what build to run? Who are you to tell us who can run those builds? The game is how it is, let us, who wish to play with heroes, play the game.

Then here is my message to everyone else: If henchmen have been around from the beginning of the game, why has NOBODY ever complained about their existence. And why complain about heroes now, which are identical? There is only ONE variable between Henchmen and Heroes. Build.

Thus, complain about build, not heroes.

But to go back to the beginning of my post: this topic is as pointless as PvE vs PvP. An agreement was reached however, which was this: Let other people play the game, how they want to.

Servant of Kali · Aug 31, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Challenges are fun: if the team is better with heroes, enjoy the challenge.

It's funny how only people who use heroes think it's a challenge for *others* to beat heroes.

Talking about challenge, why don't you play with HENCHMEN then? Ha? How bout some challenge for you?

No, sorry, we don't find it challenging nor interesting nor fun to play against or with heroes.

Quote:

Then here is my message to everyone else: If henchmen have been around from the beginning of the game, why has NOBODY ever complained about their existence. And why complain about heroes now, which are identical?

Thanks for losing all credibility with this line.

Quote:

An agreement was reached however, which was this: Let other people play the game, how they want to.

That agreement wasn't reached ANYWHERE in the game. As a matter of fact, ANet disagrees with you. If they allow people to play the game the way they want to, why does ANet ban bots? I mean, according to you, bots can play the game they want to. Why do so many people hate leechers and why is ANet trying to remove leeching? After all, we should just let people leech because that's how they wanna play the game.

Quote:

Thus, complain about build, not heroes.

Actually, I'll complain about people instead. This is 21st century and sometimes seeing posts like yours I'm wondering whether I'm surrounded by Homo Sapiens or did I wake up in the wrong space-time continuum where the specie didn't evolve to that point yet, judging by the lack of total logic and coherence of the posts.

ps: ah nvm looking below your nick it seems warrior is your favorite profession, that explains few things..

Now go to Hero Battles if you want to play with Heroes. Thanks.

Frank Dudenstein · Aug 31, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Point: It's extremely annoying to fight heroway again and again.

Counterpoint: HA/GvG is dying from lack of new players ... Heroway gets new players into these formats.

Counterpoint Flawless Victory .... GG

Servant of Kali · Aug 31, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

If GvG is dying from lack of new players then the solution isnt heroes. Some people play because they find it fun. Some people don't play GvG because there's no reward. If ANet wants to increase the amount of people playing GvG, they simply have to introduce rewards to it. Which means armor and weapon skins unlocks to all GvGers. Giving this to ATers only is utter failure because:
1) No one cares
2) You stimulate people who play GvG to play GvG. Makes no sense.
3) Top GvGers already have real money rewards and other rewards.
4) Non-top guilds don't really AT. AT is not a formal for casual guilds. It's also not a formal for those guilds who play in off-hours.

If GW was short of people in general, then the currrent heroway situation would make sense. As it is, it does not. Skin unlocks make more sense.

And spare me the "armor and weapon skins should be hard to farm". No, they should not for PvP. Fashion eliteness and boasting is PvE element, PvP element is having fun by looking different, not looking more elite.

This is an old issue however and im sure i'll hear tons of people disagreeing with me, but if you do disagree with me don't come up with reasons "heroes are needed because of lack of players". There are better solutions for lack of players, the only problem is that peoples ego is preventing player influx. Great.

Cron0s · Aug 31, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodreaver

Here is my take on heroes in GvG:

Yes, heroes are only good in a few builds, which ofcourse is Heroway. The reason why Heroes are overpowered in that build is quite simple:
- the tainted flesh/death nova Hero(es) have inhuman targeting, it's impossible to keep tainted flesh up and keep death nova going, Heroes can which makes them too superior
- Cast timing and cancelling is also done with inhuman accuracy
The "only" way to prove that heroway sucks without the heroes, is either by having a "test" weekend (where ofc people are play the build with full human players) or by ingame testing by Anet themselves (obviously THEY dont mind the heroes, so we wont need to expect an automatic update about it).

Heroes in GvG? absolutely NOT! Not 1, they ruin the game. Some people go "lol, you lose against heroway? haha noobs", but they forget that most builds are build to do something they excel at, usually that is not hitting minions, keeping spirits down and getting overpowered by 2 thumpers and hexes. The other stupid thing, is if you split, they will turtle till VoD and simply wipe you, there is NOTHING that is holding them back, unless you can INSTANTLY wipe their healers AND hardrezzers...

Now those that say "it's only overpowered for one build, big deal", you obviously dont play GvG enough. I personally think that about 5% of the ladder (50 guilds) run heroway whenever they play. This usually means they play 10-15 matches, because they win fast (or takes 22 minutes...). 50 guilds x 10 matches means 500 guilds will lose unnecessary rating, because 4 people think they need to ruin the game. Let's see you in a top50 guild and losing 4 or 5 rating points because you lose to a rank2000+ heroway. It's not because they suck, it's because heroes are overpowering that build. Remove the heroes and that build ends up dead in the water.

For those that want to play "casual GvG", there is no such thing and this shouldnt be your aim AT ALL. Either you focus on it regularly with 8 people or you dont play, simple as that. If your guild has only 5 members but wants to GvG, tough luck. Either join a guild with enough members, or get enough members on board to make a full 8 man team. No bullshit about it.

BAN THE HEROES FROM GVG!!!

About heroes in HA:
I dont really care, i never play it anyway. But for sake of others: BAN THEM FROM HA!!!

- Blade

QFT

It's kinda hard to beat a heroway team, you need a lot of spliting, a good build, and godlike monks.The way necro heroes keep tainted and death nova is imbalance.How many of you can cast death nova on all the minions that are about to dye in the next 15 seconds ? And to think that all you have to do in this heroway is to play a thumper(lock target, RaO, bash bash)

I suggest everyone should read the post above, because i find it the most concret explanation of the hero situation in gvg/ha

BlackEagle · Aug 31, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

But to go back to the beginning of my post: this topic is as pointless as PvE vs PvP. An agreement was reached however, which was this: Let other people play the game, how they want to.

There's one difference though, people playing pve or pvp doesn't really affect each other. With this, people playing with heroes can ruin the game for others.

The trouble is, hereoes either do stuff ridiculously well, or ridiculously badly. Now, seeing as everyone mainly has a problem with the things they can do ridiculously well, then they will stop being used as an advantage. And henchman can still be used by those who just want to play and don't care how bad they are.

Elrodien · Aug 31, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Legendary Battousai's arguments fail.

Getting an over-inflated ranking because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

Getting reward points in ATS because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

Enlarging your E-Peen because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

And if its pointless debating the issue, why the hell are you debating it?