Curse

Master Ketsu · Nov 03, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

So by that, I'd say adding HB maps to the usual TA rotation increases buildwars rather than other way around.

Indeed it does.

Exactly. TA is supposed to be 4v4 no bars brawl. The 4v4 format means alot of individual skill is required, and requiring consecutive wins means those 4 people have to be good. Ive been in alot of teams with 3 excellent players and 1 scrub, and those teams will eventually lose. Its not like HA or GvG were the occasional failure of the individual can be cleaned up by the other 7 people. This is what makes TA fun.

But with the addition of broken HB maps which are completely imbalanced in the favor of sins, this changes everything. Gone is the skill, now we have buildwars. HB encourages 1v1 fighting since you have to split up and cap. Guild wars is not a 1v1 game. 1v1 = rock paper scissors. This is why hero battles is a bad format, and adding it to TA destroys a good portion of skill that goes into making builds and running them. Now teams will be forced to bring sins or some kind of runner for that 1 or 2 times they run into a HB map.

Forcing players to bring a certain kind of build doesnt increase variety.

Servant of Kali · Nov 03, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

HB maps?

Yes for RA.
No for TA.

erk · Nov 03, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

HB maps?

Yes for RA.
No for TA.

I would have said exactly the opposite.

After playing these new maps for a day now, they take too long. A count of 10 would be enough, 20 seems to take for ever!

moko · Nov 03, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

alright, after playing on these properly..

/fail.

tactics? no, not really. less tactics included than in HB.

3/4 matches = 4 go to the NPC shrine, then proceed onto capping the rest. game over because the stronger team that took over NPC will wipe them over and over anyways, other team resigns after a few mins.

bombardment is a bit more random, but usually the same deal, except catapult advantage doesn't matter if you happen to fight cause you are stronger anyways.

the only new tactical addition i've seen in these games? my own usage of return. as monk and human players it's quite easy to have AMAZING shrine control without recall.

basically, it turns out that these maps are actually very boring and are based on annihilation also.

after playing RA a bit, i found it FUN and more tactical than TA. most people just run around like headless chicken and whatnot.

the time really only applies to RA cause people are stubborn and so on, but in TA it's usually quick too so from that it's not a big change. i guess it's no terrible addition..just very boring.

BlaineTog · Nov 03, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

It was a mind-bendingly bad idea to add HB arenas to RA. It's a completelly different kind of match from what RA used to be about. It's making me not play RA, jusy knowing that I might get an HB arena, and it's making me want to just immediatelly leave/resign/purposelly get myself killed whenever I get one, anything to end the pain.

Bio-Flame · Nov 03, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Vaga: I have nothing against HvH. But I don't want to play them so...

Xioden · Nov 03, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

It could be fun, but they take way to long. Speed up the morale timer by 2-3x and make a map specifically for it and you could have a nice addition. Otherwise, its just slamming two completely different gametypes together, and in this perticular case, it doesn't work.

urania · Nov 03, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

The number of A/mo's reached a new lvl.
And hey, with them the level of gimmicks did as well!

Packhunters, be it either RaO/Enraged Lunge/Heal as One r/p's, with curse necro spamming barbs dominate TA now, along with the usual monk+rit+thumper+packhunter (spear the hell out of the monk or second/third caster using warmogners, pressure the other target with the thumper in the meantime, yay), dual rit dual packhunter/thumper, nec+rit +same kind of melee/ranged damage dealers as before, smiteway with 1 or 2 smiter boons, hex overload with 2 or 3 hexers, dual monk teams, 4 monk teams with hammer monks (they're at least funny to fight against), campways with spirit pooper, curse nec, e surger, monk and and and...a/mo's, lotsa lotsa a/mo's!

So, my build that should imo handle most of the crap going around in TA atm consists out of a w/n evisc with plague touch, ranger poison arrow or burning arrow (the latter is prefered now cuz of HB maps) and an anti melee, being either inept mes or curse necro with corrupt ench as elite and grasping earth for snare.

So, with this build, TA was fun more or less, always offering a chance to be able to win a match no matter the potential build disadvantage vs certain builds (like, oh oh ho a/mo's that make the curse nec or the mes more or less useless, apart from the degen). But with the addition of HB maps the number of a/mo's rised so dramatically, that we decided to change grapsing earth for aura of stability. Nice, untill one is faced with a HB map or/and fearme-way or any kind of melee train that needs snaring down badly. Then it makes one cry for dropping the oh so useful and vital snare. And so, one switched back to the snare.
And then, oh my, a/mo's here, a/mo's there and the necro doesnt rly offer any kind of support versus them. So one loses, possibly being just a bit careless and getting knockdown on ZB/vital mend touch/*insert other random skill*.

So, what now? QQ? Rant on forums? Blame Anet? Blame the players who dont give a damn what they run as long as it gives points?
IDK, when being as frustrated and annoyed as i am atm, i like to think of the times when there was only 1 GW chapter, when builds using blind ele, shutdown mes and a warr or a thump reigned supreme, when there was hardly any gimmicks around in TA. In other words, those were the times when balanced builds reigned supreme, not some a/mo's or packhunterways or target-bashing-under-warmogner ways. It makes me a sad panda, if i compare those times to the current ones.

There were about 2 matches ONLY recently, when it was very enjoyable to play, to do your best - the teams more or less had a mirror build (melee+ranger+anti mele character) with small variations. Both played by TA players that have been doing that kind of pvp for a while.

So, i ask izzy why there's no balance for TA. "TA is very hard to balance" was the reply. And now, we have HB maps here, which i believe greatly added to all the buildwars already existing in TA. Why? Well, to give a simple example, a/mo's only need 5 of the skills for their combo, rest is utility. Adding a recall is just a small addition for the HB maps.

But anyway, sure, one can spec against a/mos with aura of stability/ward of stability, balth pendulum etc etc, but that leaves one wide open to normal balanced builds and other gimmicks. Yes, the buildwars just reached a new level now, and I am very, very frustrated to see that there is no way one can win against them all with sth even close to a balanced build. And the double gladi point event made the everything even worse.

Really, if Anet or anyone thinks GW2 will be worth buying after seeing what the current state of affairs looks like - mere paper rock scissors fest - then they need to see a doctor.

word · Nov 03, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

i really cant stand how long it takes.
such a waste of time.
not enough factions
noobs are pinging in my ear
over and over and over again!
and ive noticed that if you do good on the hb maps then you fail on the old skool maps. and if you do good on the old skool maps then you fail on the hb maps. so you get half the glad that you usually do which makes the whole new glad system pointless..gg anet for taken a step backwards.
it reminds me way to much of ab.
you may as well have mass pvp and do 1 v 1 times like 20. its wack.
not to mention the new maps are just rubish anyways. even if the caps were not part of the environment.

Osilo · Nov 03, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I just wanted to let someone know that I'm disgusted with the hero battle maps. I vote they removed them from at least random arenas.

Llint · Nov 03, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I didn't read the whole topic, since it would be quite a waste of time imo after reading the first couple of pages. But heres my opinion.

You say this is gonna make spirit spam and curse builds overpowered amirite? What do GvG teams do vs curse teams? Split (unless its like burning but that map is gay anyway). What do you do vs a hex team in TA on a HB map? Split omgomgomg. A hex build can't get enough pressure when only one hexer is hexing your team. And forcing the hex team to split, you force them to split their healer, however a curser has very very limited healing abilities. I am more worried about facing a hex team in a normal match then a HB map.

Spirit spam won't be better either. Spirit spam is a very stationary build. I fought a team with a sin, a dervish spear chucker and two ritualists. Let me tell you this, we had them beat on spliting AND a 4v4 encounter. We ran a BA, a inept mesmer and a steady stance warrior. All of our players were able to split, except maybe the mesmer, who could only split vs melee characters.

And people are belly aching diversity. What warrior builds did you run before? Steady stance, evisercrate and maybe crippling slash. All these builds can split.

Mesmers, what did you run before? Inept and a MoR diversion spam? What can you run now? The same builds.

Rangers, BA and a trapper. You can still run those.

Elementist, a mindblast and some sort of blinding surge maybe. How does HB stop you from running a mindblast or blinding surge?

Assassin, how does HB stop you from running SP or any dagger based attack? (I can say though that deadly paradox builds got owned, Lets see them try to split if they happen to get unlucky with the 25% chance to get a HB map)

Ritualists are still the same thing, you ran hybrids with rest and channeling and still can. You can even spirit spam still if you use your head and force your opposition to fight at area you've pre spirited.

Dervishes, you ran MAYBE a dervish healer and a melandrus dervish. How does having to split force you to never run these builds again?

Paragons are a different story though. They suck in 4v4 and they suck even more in skirimshes. If you run a paragon you're obvisouly not gonna have him split - if you do then well gg to you.

To sum it up, you still run the same builds before, but maybe drop an extra skill for a self heal. And if you weren't doing that before the introduction to HB maps, then well you should really look and see which builds are the best in 4v4. And they just happen to be skirmish builds, which just happen to be able to hold up on their own.

And synergetic builds? LOL, you mean your 3 deadly paradox sin build that KD locked the opposing monk? Tell me a build you can't run now because of HB. And even further, if your running a synergetic build, then your building your build to be very narrow. Unless I see something wrong there. Correct me with your proness if I am.

Julius K Foxglove · Nov 03, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Personally I like the changes (still waiting on that TA ladder and ATs though).

RA:

I largely like it in RA because it means that you don't need to have a healer to win (which wasn't always the case anyway, but it's easier to get conseqs without one when you occasionally get maps that don't require straight up fighting).

I do however agree that the time limit is a bit long for this format and should be reduced somewhat.

About the only changes I can see this bringing the RA meta is a greater presence of run skills, which isn't a bad thing imo because it means we should see a greater focus on movement control and positioning.

TA:

It's a bit harder to predict the effect this will have on TA because it will take a bit of time for the meta to adjust. Obviously no1 wants to see the crap boring dull shit that gets run in HvH come over to TA. I'm presuming that it won't for a couple of reasons; no heros (hero builds are generally based around how heros use skills - either broken AI or useless), the presence of annihilation maps (where split builds and run skills aren't of as much use).

_______________________________

After testing further in game I still like. Best experience so far was a RA team (mes, ele, rng, sin) that went on for 19 conseq wins. No vent/ts, no run skills or shadow steps (except for the sin) and we rolled heaps of teams with monks and the types of builds that everyone is QQing about in TA; rit,mo, 2 thumpers, mo, 3 x dancing dagger or SP sins. Imo the changes promote dynamic play and skill > build 9 time out of 10. Still the TA meta will need some time to evolve before anyone can comment on this with any authority.

_________________________________

But yeah, the argument that HvH maps = PvE which is terribad is just bullshit. HvH is boring imo and bordering on PvE, but because heroes are controlled by AI, not because of the design or goals demanded by the maps. Take the heroes out of HvH and the PvE aspect is gone too. QQ more kiddies.

Shuuda · Nov 03, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius K Foxglove

But yeah, the argument that HvH maps = PvE which is terribad is just bullshit. HvH is boring imo and bordering on PvE, but because heroes are controlled by AI, not because of the design or goals demanded by the maps. Take the heroes out of HvH and the PvE aspect is gone too. QQ more kiddies.

Actually, I believe the argument is that these maps cannot work in arenas because they are too different (even contradicary) from the arenas fundamental objective. Simply put:

RA/TA - A deathmatch between two teams.
HB - Two teams trying to cap shrines to gain points.

These two objectives require very different tactics from each other, and in the end, these two just cannot mesh together like Anet are trying. Making a team that can win in HvH style will be disadvantaged in more 4v4 and visa versa.

I hope I made some sense with that.

vandree · Nov 03, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I personally like the changes in the map rotation and had fun playing the HB maps last night. However Copy - Paste is NOT the way to put them into the rotation. The only downside I had with the HB maps was that they took SOOOO LONG to play them. We would run into team we generally wipe and be forced to play that said team for up to 8 minutes. Now some teams where honorable and would /resign when they knew they were beat, however most didn't and we would be force to sit through a long match. If they want to put in the HB maps I am all for it but they need to change the rules of engagement on them.

My suggestions:
1. If a team has all shrines capped a victory timer starts :45 secs to victory
2. If a team is up by 6 points a victory timer starts :45 secs to victory
3. Reduce the amount of time it takes to cap a shrine
4. Increase the rate that morale is counted.

Right now I believe its not the maps that are the problem its the fact that players are forced to play weaker teams for longer periods of time. This is a huge pain in the ***, If the potential to win in a quicker time is there then the maps would a lot more fun to play.

Rolling Teams in TA:
Elimination Maps: 30 secs - 1 Min
Priest Maps: 1 min -3 mins
Shire Maps: 5 mins -8 mins

Keep the Maps change the rules of victory. That pretty much sums up my point of view.

Genova · Nov 03, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Just got a 17 streak from RA, I have to say that it is a pleasure to play with other gladiators. If you get a nice team, it's relaxing to play without vent, etc... and just get points.

I have also been doing fine with my guild in TA, but I agree that it is really hard (or impossible) to run a balanced build able to handle all the other gimmicks.

Julius K Foxglove · Nov 04, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Actually, I believe the argument is that these maps cannot work in arenas because they are too different (even contradicary) from the arenas fundamental objective. Simply put:

RA/TA - A deathmatch between two teams.
HB - Two teams trying to cap shrines to gain points.

These two objectives require very different tactics from each other, and in the end, these two just cannot mesh together like Anet are trying. Making a team that can win in HvH style will be disadvantaged in more 4v4 and visa versa.

I hope I made some sense with that.

This is where build versatility and player skill comes into play. If the map rotation demands that the players need to be able to stand up in different game styles then builds need to be more flexible and players are required to think on their feet.

Sure it's a bit more complicated that rallying heroes to flag points or running at the opposing teams and mashing your skills until only one team remains standing, but I would presume that it should promote a better standard of play in both arenas as well as teaching new players to be more versatile; skills that will bridge the gap between RA/TA/AB and tombs/GvG.

Hong Kong Evil · Nov 04, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

pls remove this map,

pls chenk how people play in hero battle, its a unbalanced map that favor with assassin, what class you can see in hero battle?

Llint · Nov 04, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hong Kong Evil

pls remove this map,

pls chenk how people play in hero battle, its a unbalanced map that favor with assassin, what class you can see in hero battle?

You see everyone running assassins and ranger spear chuckers because they exploit the AI. Why do you think no one else runs spear chuckers WITH HEAL AS ONE? Because the AI can handle that. Why do people run assassins? Because AI is a bunch of junk and won't react unless they are standing still.

meneer123 · Nov 04, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

I just played a couple rounds of RA and I also think these new maps suck hard. My main reason is that they just take way and way too long compared to the other maps. The couple games I played I saw the losing team always just giving up after a while, 20 kills/20 min is just insane.

I think these maps *might* be fun in a separate RA gaming mode, but mixed through the original ones they are a disaster.

Akaraxle · Nov 04, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Since ANet wants us to be vocal about PvP balance here, I won't feel bad about this:

HB maps in arenas suck, please stop wasting development time into such horrible ideas.

Argumentation, if the reasons weren't obvious enough:

I wonder why these maps are even in RA: it cannot work (hello, team mode), and idiots don't resign when you're outnumbered because a guy left/dropped -> either quit and get hexed, or go afk waiting for the other team to reach 20.
This is arena. It's supposed to be a deathmatch type without the running around bs. If this was a test round in perspective of getting rid of heroes and making it a team game, then OK.