Curse

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I'm R3 Hero, R1 Glad, but I also never found much merit in grinding HA/TA, and that's not proof of anything other than how much time you're willing to commit to needless disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Hero and Glad are grinding titles for arenas I really don't care for. I really can't stand HA... at all. I've always liked GvG much more.

Learn to read. Rank and Glad have never been indicative of skill, only close minded idiots think that. They're GRINDING titles.

What does it matter if you're r1 or r12 (and I wasn't saying that to brag, I know that R3 is absolutely nothing in terms of HA Achievement), does that automatically discredit everything I say just because I hate HA? Rank doesn't make you a better player, that just makes you really committed to one aspect of PvP. Guild Wars has never been a single player game, so I fail to understand why personal pvp titles apply to credibility.

Like, I said, go ahead and guest me.

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If you always die by SP sins, you suck at playing GW. Almost every bar currently has something to counter SP sins, but the only thing that prevents sucky players from using this is retardation. The only thing that I can think of that will die to an SP sin is a mesmer.

If this is true, why are they so prevalent? Sure, monks can easily stop a single SP spike, provided they're not in a coma, but over time it wears them down! Furthermore, SP Sins usually bring more than one hex, so their spikes come as soon as their attacks are recharged, which is every 12 seconds with the recharge of HOTOX. If they're packing Expose Defenses, you have even less defense.

And this is just one character, you've got the rest of the opposing team to worry about as well. What you said is just plain ludicrous, the build is overused because it is good at killing things, which brings me to the next point:

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w/d- rend enc
w/e- shock
ele-gale,bsurge,b vision
monk- gurdian
mes- ins enc, Ineptitude,Clumsiness, hex breaker.
ranger- natural stride

W/D- Rend enchantment does nothing against SP.
W/E- Bait the shock before your attack chain.
E/x- Not much you can do here, here's one character that poses a challenge.
Mo/x- Expose defenses swings this in your favor.
Me/x- Yup, standard melee hate works well.
R/Mo- Bait natural stride, cast another hex, if you have Expose Defenses, GG. Just don't attack predictably as to get interrupted.

Only two of these characters have viable defenses, but since you're usually paired up with a second SP assassin and a monk on the split, you have enough power to take down anyone as long as both of you get at least HOTOX + impale off correctly. I don't think you give SP sins enough credit.

Sure they have counters, but they're still overpowered as hell.

Byron · Nov 07, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Kill the sins. There isn't much other choice. Overpowering sins isn't too tough.

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

What does it matter if you're r1 or r12, does that automatically discredit everything I say just because I hate HA? Rank doesn't make you a better player, that just makes you really committed to one aspect of PvP. Guild Wars has never been a single player game, so I fail to understand why personal pvp titles apply to credibility.

Let me warn you from my own experience. Don't go down that road. There are maybe one or two people in top 50 gvg who don't have a bunch of titles. It just goes with playing the game a lot.

wren e · Nov 07, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Spiritway - Make it so that spirits don't set off SR, this will finally end some of the exploitablity of SR

Dual Clums Build - Make duration of clumsiness and ineptitude short, gives choice of whether or not to attack through it or wait it out

Ancestor Rage Spike - Lower damage by 20 and increase recharge to 10 secs, still leaves the skill viable but toned down a little

Splinter Weapon at VoD - Skill itself isn't the issue, NPC position is at VoD

Three Monk backlines - Lower the energy returned for BLS and up SP cost to 15 energy, issue isn't with monks but sins on split

Recall - Change function to Spell. Shadow step to target ally. Lower casting cost to reflect change. This would make it an active skill use with depending upon your and teammates positioning instead of the way it is now.

Blood Spike - Change Life Sheath to instead of negating damage, negating health loss, slightly increase the amount of health loss negated. Finally have some type of prot that would work against life stealing while still being flexible enough to use in other situations.

These are my thoughts on what could be done to improve the game with some of the problematic issues that are being looked at.

Bankai · Nov 07, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

SP sins are run because they can A) Easily punish opponent's bad play B) Can kill easily if they've got some support C) Kill NPCs fast. Not because they're awesome in 1v1s.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 07, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Learn to read. Rank and Glad have never been indicative of skill, only close minded idiots think that. They're GRINDING titles.

What does it matter if you're r1 or r12, does that automatically discredit everything I say just because I hate HA? Rank doesn't make you a better player, that just makes you really committed to one aspect of PvP. Guild Wars has never been a single player game, so I fail to understand why personal pvp titles apply to credibility.

Like, I said, go ahead and guest me.

They indicate experience, I personally could care less about glad/hero titles, champion title is a different story, while I'd value a good guild history more than a high amount of champ points, a complete lack thereof shows that someone has (virtually) no experience at mid-high level gvg.

Which in turn doesn't mean they're bad, but it certainly does mean that they can't be called good either. And really shouldn't be talking about top level GvG because they havent experienced it.

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If this is true, why are they so prevalent? Sure, monks can easily stop a single SP spike, provided they're not in a coma, but over time it wears them down! Furthermore, SP Sins usually bring more than one hex, so their spikes come as soon as their attacks are recharged, which is every 12 seconds with the recharge of HOTOX. If they're packing Expose Defenses, you have even less defense.

The strength of SP sins is their mobility + the ability to (potentially) kill something in a few seconds, they can teleport to an NPC hoping to kill it, either your opponent sends something back to deal with it or they'll lose NPCs. If they send something back you can collapse on the stand team and unleash your combo before whatever the other team sent back to defend has a chance to reach the stand.

The character itsself is quite fragile.

moko · Nov 07, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

remember that this is not about rank. any further posts will be deleted.

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Now that i read all these misconceptions about sinsplit and sins in general i understand why so many players loose to the build.

1) Protection like guardian, soa, and spiritbond (in case of monkrunner) can not be put on multiple targets for an extended period of time, if you want to save yourself and your teammates archers, you will need to stand in your lords room, outsides will have to be let go unless there's bsurge or other monk backup. Also keep in mind they use expose defenses so guardian doesnt always help. And even then they can hit through it.
2) Shock or gale does not really help, with luck you can interrupt an attack, but its unreliable and you cant gale or shock 2 sins. It's nice to have but absolutely not on itself.
3) Blind/blurred/ward are effective, but they are often removed. What i noticed as a bsurge warder was that the good teams drawed right before the spike (which means i blinded the sin in the middle of the spike, and therefore the sin did his combo in 2 parts), which is annoying, and expose RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed the ward. As a water ele blurred got removed a lot easier, or simple doesnt help enough if the sin is lucky.
4) Then, MOST IMPORTANTLY is the speed and flexibility of their teleports, they literally can be in 2 places at the same time, and need only 3-4 seconds to take something out, outsides therefore often don't stand a chance depending on the map. Also this allows them to fall on your main team much faster, so the mainteam will be fighting 8v6 for a good 10-20s, enough to make a kill.
5) However, prot, ward, blind/blurred, and gale together make effective shutdown of assassins on pure 2v3, but make a mistake and youre RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed (we at vZ practically never make such mistakes, other do).

The weakness of the build is that it relies on vodplay while it's a weak vodbuild. So making sure that the npc disadvantage is kept in check, or simply sexually harassing (i hate the censoration on this forum RIPTGH) their mainteam can result in a longfought but not too hard victory.

In thiefmaps it's easier, just chase the thief for 20minutes, make sure you have something that can handle their 3men split in your base and go win at vod.

Oh, and whoever said rending touch owns sins: urbadl2p

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

But above all, there's never just one SP sin to worry about. If you're utilizing them in a GVG build, you're packing two of them, and there's no doubting that two SP sins give counter splits hell.

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SP sins are run because they can A) Easily punish opponent's bad play

This is relative to the player: anyone can punish mistakes. SP Sins just have a better ability to do so because they can teleport and instagib.

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B) Can kill easily if they've got some support

So can warriors.

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C) Kill NPCs fast. Not because they're awesome in 1v1s.

I didn't mean to imply 1v1. You don't generally see one SP sin on his own, for the most part they travel in pairs, often with a monk in tow. They'll either gang up on a splitting monk or each spike down a target separately.

At any rate, I don't think anything more needs to be said on this particular topic.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The character itself is quite fragile.

Glass cannons, baby.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

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Originally Posted by kosh

stuff
w/d- rend enc
stuff
mes- ins enc
stuff

Yes, inspired enchantment and rending touch work awesome on SP

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thats not what gimmcky about them.

What's gimmicky about them is that you alternate between 1234567, 8234567, and 81234567, and doing that actually works. It's also gimmicky because teleport-spikes let you gib NPCs from earshot range. It's gimmicky for the same reason that any successful build that a complete moron could play is.

Speaking of complete morons, if you think SP sins are anything less than exceptional at instagibbing unsupported players, you are one. Most direct counters to them can be baited or need to be fired off very quickly because if you're knocked on your ass, they're still landing attacks, and you don't have someone pushing your red bar back up, you lose. That's why team support is the real counter to that, because then you can have someone capable of dealing with it that ISN'T on their ass and has more than a quarter second to do something before getting hit by Blades of I Win+Impale.

The reason it works is that having two of them lets you put one of those team supports on their ass and now you have one less person to stop one more spike, they can outrun the defense back to the stand because they can teleport, and they can overload team support with both the dual KD instagib spikes and the tree's wearying strike spam.

Regardless, SP spike has been sucking the fun out of every format it has ever been viable in. On that alone, it needs to be hammered.

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Originally Posted by wren e

Ancestor Rage Spike - Lower damage by 20 and increase recharge to 10 secs, still leaves the skill viable but toned down a little

IMO lower recharge, significantly less damage. It reminds me of Zealot's Fire... except Zealot's Fire didn't do nuke-level damage.

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Recall - Change function to Spell. Shadow step to target ally. Lower casting cost to reflect change. This would make it an active skill use with depending upon your and teammates positioning instead of the way it is now.

If there's a functionality change it needs, then it needs to be teleporting you back to where the ally was when you cast the spell. The fact that you can move your anchor effectively doubles your mobility, lets you use it to power-play even when using it well in advance.

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Blood Spike - Change Life Sheath to instead of negating damage, negating health loss, slightly increase the amount of health loss negated. Finally have some type of prot that would work against life stealing while still being flexible enough to use in other situations.

Life Sheath would be the exception rather than the rule, which is that degen and health steal have ALWAYS ignored preventative measures. Kicking Angorodon's Gaze would bring energy concerns back into the equasion.

Frank Dudenstein · Nov 07, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

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Originally Posted by wren e

Blood Spike - Change Life Sheath to instead of negating damage, negating health loss, slightly increase the amount of health loss negated. Finally have some type of prot that would work against life stealing while still being flexible enough to use in other situations.

Life Sheath needs alot more than this to become viable ... it's current form is inferior to Rof for god's sake.

How about a 1/4 sec cast? Now we're talking....

kosh · Nov 07, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Yes, inspired enchantment and rending touch work awesome on SP

u missed the part that i was also referring to Aod. which is somewaht the more annoying form of sp

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Learn to read. Rank and Glad have never been indicative of skill, only close minded idiots think that. They're GRINDING titles.

What does it matter if you're r1 or r12 (and I wasn't saying that to brag, I know that R3 is absolutely nothing in terms of HA Achievement), does that automatically discredit everything I say just because I hate HA? Rank doesn't make you a better player, that just makes you really committed to one aspect of PvP. Guild Wars has never been a single player game, so I fail to understand why personal pvp titles apply to credibility.

Like, I said, go ahead and guest me.

If this is true, why are they so prevalent? Sure, monks can easily stop a single SP spike, provided they're not in a coma, but over time it wears them down! Furthermore, SP Sins usually bring more than one hex, so their spikes come as soon as their attacks are recharged, which is every 12 seconds with the recharge of HOTOX. If they're packing Expose Defenses, you have even less defense.

And this is just one character, you've got the rest of the opposing team to worry about as well. What you said is just plain ludicrous, the build is overused because it is good at killing things, which brings me to the next point:

W/D- Rend enchantment does nothing against SP.
W/E- Bait the shock before your attack chain.
E/x- Not much you can do here, here's one character that poses a challenge.
Mo/x- Expose defenses swings this in your favor.
Me/x- Yup, standard melee hate works well.
R/Mo- Bait natural stride, cast another hex, if you have Expose Defenses, GG. Just don't attack predictably as to get interrupted.

Only two of these characters have viable defenses, but since you're usually paired up with a second SP assassin and a monk on the split, you have enough power to take down anyone as long as both of you get at least HOTOX + impale off correctly. I don't think you give SP sins enough credit.

Sure they have counters, but they're still overpowered as hell.

a. a ranger in our meta game is a self sustained unit, u cant prob overcome 2 sp... but if you get to the position when u have 2 of those on you you are in bad position already.
b. monk? yay i can holy veil myself...

we all know that sins need that 123456. take out one of those skills... with lets say shock and there go the chain. dont get me wrong, i hate those sin and every min we play against them. but a good spilt is the key to beat them. its not like your standing clueless and waiting to die...
its imba, boring. dumb and push the meta game into long endless gvgs that goes to vod.
but hey.. izzy like sins,and derv,and para, and we cant forget rits.. so what can we do?

izzy is my hero, hes so bright and smart, im going to buy him a magic 8 ball for his b.day..maybe then this game will not look like a complete chaos.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

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Originally Posted by kosh

a ranger in our meta game is a self sustained unit

A lone ranger will lose to any SP sin that doesn't get something d-shotted like a moron. The only thing they have to deal with them is Natural Stride which is trivial when Expose is carried so much, and interrupts which aren't fast enough to use reactively (and MUST hit one of the first two attacks) and can consequently be baited.

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dont get me wrong, i hate those sin and every min we play against them. but a good spilt is the key to beat them.

This isn't about whether they're beatable or not, it's about whether they're balanced. They're not.

As for requiring the 1234567 shit, the addition of Tiger Stance and Impale to the combo effectively has 6 slots devoted to just the attack chain now. It used to be 4. The chains have been getting longer, the damage has been going higher, and the bar has been becoming more degenerate and tactically bankrupt. It needs to be scaled back. Shorter, more-repeatable combos + less instagib + more utility = What the Assassin class used to be, something that could be dealt with in a skirmish more easily and required a lot more skill to play.

Also note the "and that actually works" part of my statement, which is just as important. The fact that you can get away with running such a one-dimensional bar in the first place should be testament to the fact that the one thing the bar is capable of works a little too well.

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its not like your standing clueless and waiting to die...

No, you're either at 33% move speed waiting to die, or knocked down and waiting to die.

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but hey.. izzy like sins,and derv,and para, and we cant forget rits.. so what can we do?

Not even Izzy likes the SP bar, he said he doesn't think it's the only thing keeping Assassins in play, he's just too incompetent to do anything about it. BSS got a puny nerf, SP got a duration nerf that didn't matter, Expose got hit, none of those has even offset the Impale buff letting them put Horns back on their bar.

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

A lone ranger will lose to any SP sin that doesn't get something d-shotted like a moron. The only thing they have to deal with them is Natural Stride which is trivial when Expose is carried so much, and interrupts which aren't fast enough to use reactively (and MUST hit one of the first two attacks) and can consequently be baited.

You really need to get a better ranger then. A ranger should NEVER EVER loose to a sin in 1on1 (in fact, the ranger should never let the sin escape, but kill his ass after timer) except if the sin is lucky AND it's vod or the ranger is high dp.

By the way, for the more attentive players out there: The sin split reno and spnv USED to run wasn't entirely dedicated to 5-3 splits as you see now. They had an emo runner and the sins just teleported forward now and then, but there wasn't such a mindless dedication as you see now.

Of course, the only reason why the asians are more effective at sinsplit (and why they run it so much, just like they used to run a lot of hexes) is because the game is always lagging when facing them. This means its a lot harder to win against them as interrupted 3/4s spells is impossible, and interrupting 1s spells is often impossible too! It suddenly gets a lot harder to dshot lod from range, or pleak their RC. In terms of split it gets impossible to dshot ZB and catching their expose is a job entirely dependant on luck.

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

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Originally Posted by Kaon

You really need to get a better ranger then. A ranger should NEVER EVER loose to a sin in 1on1 (in fact, the ranger should never let the sin escape, but kill his ass after timer) except if the sin is lucky AND it's vod or the ranger is high dp.

Technically, rangers should be the best class 1v1 because of their interrupts. Anything in the game is interruptible. That's not always the case. Attacks are harder to interrupt than spells, especially under IAS, and you're disregarding the capability of an assassin to fake an attack. This particular matchup comes down to the respective skill of each player.

The ranger has some advantage, but this is a moot point, because he's most likely getting gangbanged by two sins at once.

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Of course, the only reason why the asians are more effective at sinsplit (and why they run it so much, just like they used to run a lot of hexes) is because the game is always lagging when facing them. This means its a lot harder to win against them as interrupted 3/4s spells is impossible, and interrupting 1s spells is often impossible too! It suddenly gets a lot harder to dshot lod from range, or pleak their RC. In terms of split it gets impossible to dshot ZB and catching their expose is a job entirely dependant on luck.

That's wholly dependent on whose server the game is being hosted on. If it's Anet's Japan server, you'll lag. If it's Anet's American server, they'll lag.

I really don't how Anet hosts the games, but that's a really interesting point.

moko · Nov 07, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Technically, rangers should be the best class 1v1 because of their interrupts. Anything in the game is interruptible.

you must be the guy that said stances can be interrupted! =o same with shouts tbh.

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

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Originally Posted by Mokone

you must be the guy that said stances can be interrupted! =o same with shouts tbh.

Way to take me out of context. No, stances, instant-activation shouts (some shouts can... or chants and echoes if you're being THAT specific), and instant-activation skills cannot be interrupted.

You know what I mean.

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Technically, rangers should be the best class 1v1 because of their interrupts. Anything in the game is interruptible. That's not always the case. Attacks are harder to interrupt than spells, especially under IAS, and you're disregarding the capability of an assassin to fake an attack. This particular matchup comes down to the respective skill of each player.

Are you even playing the same game as I am? Or do you just know so much more about thee game than me. Please teach me how to fake attacks. It doesn't even matter anyway. Not only will natural stride block the combo, even if it doesn't (if the sin's lucky) then he will still survive the combo, unless (as i said) the ranger has high dp or its vod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The ranger has some advantage, but this is a moot point, because he's most likely getting gangbanged

Again, this proves your ranger is bad, and your guild needs better strategies too. A ranger should NEVER be up against 2 sins on his own. And against 1 sin, he'll never loose, and the sin has a high probability of dying unless he can escape or get saved.

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

That's wholly dependent on whose server the game is being hosted on. If it's Anet's Japan server, you'll lag. If it's Anet's American server, they'll lag.

It is always 400ish ping and i believe it is for both sides, which would explain why azians never run mesmers and rarely run rangers, they are simply not as usefull.

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I really don't how Anet hosts the games, but that's a really interesting point.

It's been a MAJOR issue ever since the game has existed (alpha, beta, live). Americans appear to have a solid 30 ping (or so i heard) whereas a good westerneuro vs western euro match is about 70-130 ping with spikes to 200. A match against americans is about 250 ping for us which means 3/4s spells are EXTREMELY hard to get but still possible (also depending on your ping at that exact moment, it becomes a gamble). A considerable advantage for the americans, that historically used to be WAY worse, and there have been many playoff matches where the lag used to be nearly unbearable. This has also been the case against Koreans (japan wasnt added back then). And, as said euro-asian games are just hell.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Way to take me out of context. No, stances, instant-activation shouts (some shouts can... or chants and echoes if you're being THAT specific), and instant-activation skills cannot be interrupted.

You know what I mean.

It's a "famous" story of a guy on TGH who claimed he would interrupt shouts like shields up with random interrupts like savage shot and dshot, this is what is being referred to.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 07, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

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Originally Posted by Mokone

you must be the guy that said stances can be interrupted! =o same with shouts tbh.

Actually they are. I'm pretty sure cavetrolls Dchop my Bonetti's Defense quite a lot.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

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Originally Posted by Kaon

Are you even playing the same game as I am? Or do you just know so much more about thee game than me. Please teach me how to fake attacks.

Dagger attacks under IAS have a very short window where they can be interrupted, and often have to be done predictively. If you do it reactively and you miss, you lose. "Faking an attack" in this case means that instead of queuing up your skills so the ranger can d-shot Horns, you wait and do a regular plink or two so that they fire their interrupt into a regular attack, and then you hit them with Horns and go to town on them.

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Not only will natural stride block the combo

Hi, my name is [skill]Expose Defenses[/skill]. People like to bring me.

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then he will still survive the combo

The BoS+Impale variant? Uh, no.

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Again, this proves your ranger is bad, and your guild needs better strategies too. A ranger should NEVER be up against 2 sins on his own. And against 1 sin, he'll never loose, and the sin has a high probability of dying unless he can escape or get saved.

There will be 2 in any actual match, and there will generally be a healer tailgating them as well. This is just hypothetical stuff meant to disprove the rather ridiculous statement that most bars can stand up to a SP spiker 1v1, which is even more ridiculous when most bars that do live through the spike don't even have a way to push their red bar back up in time for the next one.

axe · Nov 07, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Actually they are. I'm pretty sure cavetrolls Dchop my Bonetti's Defense quite a lot.

Yeah, I agree with this. I used to get bonnetti's interrupted occasionally by rockshot's when griffon farming. I may have a screenshot of it recharging.

Also I interrupted a warriors Dolyak Sig in AB with agonizing chop which was hilarious for several reason's

But I'm not claiming that anyone can do this consistently, just saying I have seen this happen.