Curse

Farin · Nov 04, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Rending Touch is pretty awesome, wouldn't call it overpowered though. It was rather nice in the defense ball days. I could just run around stripping sod's attunements and conjures all day while soloing people but right now I'd rather take shock over it since the amount enchants there are dont justify bringing it (at least to me). While Rending Touch can be used on recharge that means you get no energy for frenzy, bstrike and any other energy skills you might be using. You can't just spam it stripping random prot on random targets, you gotta be smart with it.

Ensign · Nov 04, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Reading your post, I think we're not using the same terminology. I usually refer to 'Frontline' as character's who's primary role is melee attacks, such as warriors, dervishes, and Iso. If your 'frontline' encompasses all physical classes then I'd agree with you, as paragons have added significantly to offense, and rangers are more capable than almost any other class of making the big game-winning plays.

I agree, it's probably more fair to lump Paragons and Rangers into the midline, though they have very little in common with classic midlines. Paragons are fairly interchangable with the 3rd Warrior these days, serving slightly different purposes; Rangers are closer to traditional midline, but the way they're played they're often further up than the Warriors.

What I should say is that non-Monk casters are falling out of the metagame, besides the one Mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

My point was, warriors beingless stoppable comes from the increased power of disruptive skills and plays, rather than the increased power of warriors themeselves. Warriors are in the same place they were a year ago, but the rest of the team has evolved to better disrupt their defenses and force your warriors' damage onto their team.

I don't think Disruption has really seen that much of a buff, besides the constantly buffed Power Leak disruption is about where it's always been. Removal has seen some huge additions (which you could classify as disruption), but the bigger factors have been all the nerfs to defense and defensive characters; block webs are really all that's survived in the face of nerfs and hypercharged removal.

But with the exception of Rending Touch, Warriors are essentially unchanged from where they were pre-Nightfall; and Rending Touch is much less significant now than it used to be with the nerf to Shield of Deflection. There isn't any really dominant prot in the metagame anymore.

Lorekeeper · Nov 04, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Rending Touch is pretty awesome, wouldn't call it overpowered though. It was rather nice in the defense ball days. I could just run around stripping sod's attunements and conjures all day while soloing people but right now I'd rather take shock over it since the amount enchants there are dont justify bringing it (at least to me). While Rending Touch can be used on recharge that means you get no energy for frenzy, bstrike and any other energy skills you might be using. You can't just spam it stripping random prot on random targets, you gotta be smart with it.

id say the biggest problem with rend touch is that it allows warriors to strip enchants without the help of their team like from a midline mesmer. Before rend touch warriors didnt have anything like it... rend enchantments is a 5e cost enchant strip but was limited in use because of its long recharge. With team play being something i would like encouraged more often than solo play... id say rend touch needs a bit of toning down. A warrior would be forced to ask for enchant removal on a target before rend touch, with rend touch the support war can remove enchants without needing to ask for enchant removal.

this allows the mesmer to save things like shatter or drain or ienchant for other things like spike assists, which is bad news for defense in general, at least in the past a mesmer would not have enough enchant removal to help pressure AND spike.

rend touch

5e 3/4s cast 8s recharge --> 5e 3/4 cast 15s recharge OR 10e 3/4 cast 8s recharge

Seamus Finn · Nov 04, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

With team play being something i would like encouraged more often than solo play... id say rend touch needs a bit of toning down.

As a solo play, rend touch is little more than utility removal(attunements). Unless you hit a Bulls and want to spend your free frenzy time rending an enchantment, the guy now without prot should be out of your axe's range by the time hitting him would really hurt.

Rend touch is devastating to SoR guys that screw up running flags or that want to turtle in their base. But in the current meta, I can't see how some more spot removals(and at touch range) can be bad for the game.

Kaon · Nov 04, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I havent understood warriors who take rend touch, yes it's really nice, but shock is so awesomest that it must be taken!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 04, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

id say the biggest problem with rend touch is that it allows warriors to strip enchants without the help of their team like from a midline mesmer. Before rend touch warriors didnt have anything like it... rend enchantments is a 5e cost enchant strip but was limited in use because of its long recharge. With team play being something i would like encouraged more often than solo play... id say rend touch needs a bit of toning down. A warrior would be forced to ask for enchant removal on a target before rend touch, with rend touch the support war can remove enchants without needing to ask for enchant removal.

this allows the mesmer to save things like shatter or drain or ienchant for other things like spike assists, which is bad news for defense in general, at least in the past a mesmer would not have enough enchant removal to help pressure AND spike.

rend touch

5e 3/4s cast 8s recharge --> 5e 3/4 cast 15s recharge OR 10e 3/4 cast 8s recharge

No.

123456789

Ensign · Nov 04, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

The Rending Touch boat has sailed; Shield of Deflection got hammered and SoR guys are the exception rather than the norm now. Rending Touch was awesome when you could wreck one or both elites with regularity, now it's a niche skill you can threaten if either of those elites start to make a comeback.

Kaon · Nov 04, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I must say the balance in the game at the moment is awesome, the only gay thing is sinsplit (and perhaps bloodspike). Then there could be some thing done to simply improve game experience (like nerfing superman-like-speedbuffs, LoD, or mending touch).

To nerf assassins i say either: nerf shadowstepping into hell, or better: BRING BACK GALE AT 5 ENERGY!!!! If izzy doesn't feel comfortable with his ass being kd'ed all the time, you could make the skill be easily interruptable.

wuzzman · Nov 04, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Time to bring out the sticks and stones. Cause that will be the only thing left to stop melee pressure. That or 2 blind bots with ward against melee and ward against foes.

Farin · Nov 04, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The Rending Touch boat has sailed; Shield of Deflection got hammered and SoR guys are the exception rather than the norm now. Rending Touch was awesome when you could wreck one or both elites with regularity, now it's a niche skill you can threaten if either of those elites start to make a comeback.

Add Conjures and attunements but that's pretty much what I meant to say ^^

erk · Nov 04, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I must say the balance in the game at the moment is awesome, the only gay thing is sinsplit (and perhaps bloodspike). Then there could be some thing done to simply improve game experience (like nerfing superman-like-speedbuffs, LoD, or mending touch).

To nerf assassins i say either: nerf shadowstepping into hell, or better: BRING BACK GALE AT 5 ENERGY!!!! If izzy doesn't feel comfortable with his ass being kd'ed all the time, you could make the skill be easily interruptable.

There is a bit of bloodspike but it seems to be easy enough to kite and roll their lord. Spiritway is the biggest problem ATM with Sin-split second. Shadow stepping overall is a broken game mechanic, recall has way too much range, it demonstrates the crazy advantage of shadow stepping.

I would like to see spirit range reduced down to say longbow range, the current 2.7 times aggro range has always been a bit over the top.

Spiritway is now in plague proportions, like about 2/3 of the 20 or so GvG's I did on the weekend faced Spiritway. I think I saw maybe 2-3 balanced teams and the rest were Sin-split.

I don't think spirits have as much to do with it as the name suggests, there is a build called Spiritway on the Pvxwiki that has Thumpers, Necros spamming Rit spirits, but that's not what I have encountered, the one I call Spirtway has Thumpers, Necros doing MM, and usually Tainted, a spirit or two, and most of the energy comes from players, NPC's, minions dying, not spirits. I don't think nerfing RaO again is a great answer to that Spiritway, it's a good skill but ultimately it has little to do with the cause of the problem which is a massive minion army pounding targets with Barbs on them. Because there are so many NPC's in GvG, corpses come frequently.

I have heard suggestions that Heros should not be allowed in GvG only Henchmen, that idea has some merit, it saves having to tweak the skill balance too much and gets rid of Spiritway without preventing the teams that can't scrape up 8 real players.

Kaon · Nov 05, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

There is a bit of bloodspike but it seems to be easy enough to kite and roll their lord. Spiritway is the biggest problem ATM with Sin-split second. Shadow stepping overall is a broken game mechanic, recall has way too much range, it demonstrates the crazy advantage of shadow stepping.

I would like to see spirit range reduced down to say longbow range, the current 2.7 times aggro range has always been a bit over the top.

Spiritway is now in plague proportions, like about 2/3 of the 20 or so GvG's I did on the weekend faced Spiritway. I think I saw maybe 2-3 balanced teams and the rest were Sin-split.

I don't think spirits have as much to do with it as the name suggests, there is a build called Spiritway on the Pvxwiki that has Thumpers, Necros spamming Rit spirits, but that's not what I have encountered, the one I call Spirtway has Thumpers, Necros doing MM, and usually Tainted, a spirit or two, and most of the energy comes from players, NPC's, minions dying, not spirits. I don't think nerfing RaO again is a great answer to that Spiritway, it's a good skill but ultimately it has little to do with the cause of the problem which is a massive minion army pounding targets with Barbs on them. Because there are so many NPC's in GvG, corpses come frequently.

I have heard suggestions that Heros should not be allowed in GvG only Henchmen, that idea has some merit, it saves having to tweak the skill balance too much and gets rid of Spiritway without preventing the teams that can't scrape up 8 real players.

Bloodspike sucks because it is dangerous and gives really bad players the chance to beat better players in really boring games. And i still shiver at the possibility what a bloodspike can do if they basecamp all game and RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you at 20minutes.

About spiritway, isn't that a tombs build? I've played about 20 gvg's if not more this weekend and observed quite a lot, but didn't see it a single time (euro times). Unless you're talking about that really bad necrothumper thing that Our Ghostly is a suxxor runs.

And sinsplit, well it's fairly easy to beat with the rawr build for instance, as i said before we played it many dozens of times and i think we only lost once (eventhough i do not remember that game, i still think we lost once to reno or something because we failed). The real problem with sinsplit is that is boring and dumbing down the game, also sinsplit still beats most of the players cause 99% of the gw players are BAD.

wuzzman · Nov 05, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Bloodspike was medicore HA build when I started playing guild wars. Its beyond absolute now. I really sure its the case of bad players losing to bad players using bad builds.

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Yeah, watching dR versus Heyy last night was just awful.

Ensign must've gotten spiked down 3 times? (Wasn't paying that much attention) and Heyy just kept balling up.

That match was lame as hell. dR had little in the manner of options, mainly because every time they tried to confront Heyy's mob they just got spiked down.

Except....Heyy lost. So....

GG

erk · Nov 05, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

About spiritway, isn't that a tombs build? I've played about 20 gvg's if not more this weekend and observed quite a lot, but didn't see it a single time (euro times). Unless you're talking about that really bad necrothumper thing that Our Ghostly is a suxxor runs.

Not sure, I always thought that Spiritway was a toombs thing, which was the cause for the last Soul Reaping from spirts nerf, but a lot of people are calling that Necrothumper thing (which I use to call Heroway), Spiritway. Some clarification of the Spiritway Izzy is looking at might be in order if anyone know for sure.

Quote:

And sinsplit, well it's fairly easy to beat with the rawr build for instance, as i said before we played it many dozens of times and i think we only lost once (eventhough i do not remember that game, i still think we lost once to reno or something because we failed). The real problem with sinsplit is that is boring and dumbing down the game, also sinsplit still beats most of the players cause 99% of the gw players are BAD.

Yeah, Sin-split tends to hurt the teams that are set up for 8v8 at the stand. Normally the sins go to the stand first to get you all there, then break off and cover ground much faster than the anti-gank can, shadow step in without needing a Guild Thief, kill a couple of NPC's and go back to the stand. Rinse and repeat.

As soon as you see Sins in a build you know it's time to keep someone back!

Yue · Nov 05, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Yeah, watching dR versus Heyy last night was just awful.

Ensign must've gotten spiked down 3 times? (Wasn't paying that much attention) and Heyy just kept balling up.

That match was lame as hell. dR had little in the manner of options, mainly because every time they tried to confront Heyy's mob they just got spiked down.

Except....Heyy lost. So....

GG

Pretty sure half the bars on most of heyy's players were empty since they were just screwing around, and the only reason they played bloodspike that match was because they knew tommy doesn't run infuse and intended to screw with them because of it. The reaction to dR's split worked fine, and put dp on alot of their players. The only reason they didn't continue it was because they didn't want to draw out the game any longer and just stayed in dR's base, knowing they would lose.

On the other hand, bloodspike is easy to 8v8 if you have a decent amount of disruption (which most balanced teams should have anyway).

Riotgear · Nov 05, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Some clarification of the Spiritway Izzy is looking at might be in order if anyone know for sure.

2 thumpers, 1 water ele, 1 nuker, 2 N/Rt healers, 1 Rt/Me Warmonger's/Splinter pooper with Expel Hexes

Fill remaining slot with another nuker, another thumper, a trapper, or another necro healer.

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Pretty sure half the bars on most of heyy's players were empty since they were just screwing around, and the only reason they played bloodspike that match was because they knew tommy doesn't run infuse and intended to screw with them because of it. The reaction to dR's split worked fine, and put dp on alot of their players. The only reason they didn't continue it was because they didn't want to draw out the game any longer and just stayed in dR's base, knowing they would lose.

On the other hand, bloodspike is easy to 8v8 if you have a decent amount of disruption (which most balanced teams should have anyway).

Yes, this is all true, seeing as you were in Heyy's team that match Yue.

It doesn't negate the fact that B-spike is still lame.

Div · Nov 05, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

There is a bit of bloodspike but it seems to be easy enough to kite and roll their lord. Spiritway is the biggest problem ATM with Sin-split second. Shadow stepping overall is a broken game mechanic, recall has way too much range, it demonstrates the crazy advantage of shadow stepping.

I would like to see spirit range reduced down to say longbow range, the current 2.7 times aggro range has always been a bit over the top.

Spiritway is now in plague proportions, like about 2/3 of the 20 or so GvG's I did on the weekend faced Spiritway. I think I saw maybe 2-3 balanced teams and the rest were Sin-split.

I don't think spirits have as much to do with it as the name suggests, there is a build called Spiritway on the Pvxwiki that has Thumpers, Necros spamming Rit spirits, but that's not what I have encountered, the one I call Spirtway has Thumpers, Necros doing MM, and usually Tainted, a spirit or two, and most of the energy comes from players, NPC's, minions dying, not spirits. I don't think nerfing RaO again is a great answer to that Spiritway, it's a good skill but ultimately it has little to do with the cause of the problem which is a massive minion army pounding targets with Barbs on them. Because there are so many NPC's in GvG, corpses come frequently.

Spiritway really isn't as much of a problem in upper tier GvGs compared to sinsplit. Any half decent team not screwing around can beat spiritway, but it takes a good team that knows what they're doing to beat sinsplit. If I had to guess, I'd say spiritway is inproportionally represented in the mid-lower (500-1k+ rank guilds), simply because it's easy to play without 8 people and it rolls teams at that level. However, when a third of the active guilds in the top 100 are predominantly sinsplit, that's more of a problem. Bloodspike is generally fairly easy to beat with infuse, and even without it good positioning and splits can still win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Pretty sure half the bars on most of heyy's players were empty since they were just screwing around, and the only reason they played bloodspike that match was because they knew tommy doesn't run infuse and intended to screw with them because of it. The reaction to dR's split worked fine, and put dp on alot of their players. The only reason they didn't continue it was because they didn't want to draw out the game any longer and just stayed in dR's base, knowing they would lose.

On the other hand, bloodspike is easy to 8v8 if you have a decent amount of disruption (which most balanced teams should have anyway).

I'd like to point out the bodyguard's maelstrom was epic. It interrupted every single necro's attempt to spike (while they were standing in firestorm) while custo just hacked them down :O

Yeah, it sucks when the only thing you could do is rof+dwaynas the target and then use sb+dismiss to have a followup heal

Bankai · Nov 05, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

step in without needing a Guild Thief, kill a couple of NPC's and go back to the stand. Rinse and repeat.

lol

lrn2pllay sins plx

Change recall so that you lose it when you're an aggro range away from your target.