Curse

Vaga · Nov 03, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

for you the correlation doesn't exist. you have the luxury of having probably the best monk backline in the game. that extra set of prot and big heal from ZB that a monk runner can provide is mostly meaningless to you.

for the rest of us, when we decide to roll a monk runner, it's because we expect it to essentially function as a third monk at the stand when we need it to. monk runners are strong enough at the stand to be that third monk of the backline, as well as help stabilize a team when one of the monks go down.

that's why most of us use monk runners. if we don't expect it to essentially function as a monk at some time in the match, we'll go with something else. that correlates why stronger stand monks will remove the need for them. if the stand monks' skills are made a little stronger, much of the need for a monk runner is removed.

You're the only one I know of to run a zb runner because you need it at the stand, most people run it to deal with splits.

Zuranthium · Nov 03, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

No nerfing LoD at this state in the game is definatly NOT the way to move ahead in the game. That's moving backwards.

Izzy was seriously considering this change to LoD:

Earshot range, healing for 65 points rather than 75 at 14 Heal Prayers, no under 80% conditionality.

I think he's off of that train now, though.

~Z

Xioden · Nov 03, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

The NPCs aren't supposed to be good. They're not supposed to kill. There are only two reasons for them to be there: To make sure you can't just run into the base and kill the guild lord, and to force deaths at VoD.

I never said make them good, I simply said make them different and something you couldn't train a monkey to do. Spamming Apply poison, Natural stride, and burning arrow until they use their heal is hardly interesting. And on a few maps you can run directly to the guild lord (granted the body guard sort of has to be taken out as the damage from it can't be stopped quite as well by prot, but the point still stands). Throwing an ele or two in and having some damage that isn't just completely ignored due to blocks and having someone splitting have to actually THINK a tiny bit would hardly be bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Do you even play the game? You're basically saying make non dedicated splits impossible when we almost want the opposite.

I'm not saying make them impossible, I'm saying make it something a trained monkey couldn't do, aswell as giving Maps their own flavor with some unique stuff here and there. Isle of meditation style thing, wow, an archer that *can't* be killed in a splinter weapon blob, can't have that now can we! Other than that, throw in some archers that use apply poison. It's something that can easily be shutdown by anyone who's paying attention, if they don't have an interupt, it doesn't add much pressure. Add an ele that does nothing but spam flare or ice spear (at least on say Wizard's isle (See point that was totally disregarded about giving maps their own flavor/quirks)) New damage type that can't be completely negated by block stances/prots, easy to shut down.

Make the maps actually more than just a different layout with a hazard or two that are more or less irrelevent anyway.

Snow Bunny · Nov 03, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I run ranger solely at this point, and while Yue, I agree that the rather powerful resilience naturally of the ranger is already troublesome for killing them, the 2 sec cast for Trolls would be very nice.

I'd really like to see Heal Signet modified currently. Having it buffed would aid in splits I think.

Seamus Finn · Nov 03, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

I'm not saying make them impossible, I'm saying make it something a trained monkey couldn't do, aswell as giving Maps their own flavor with some unique stuff here and there. [/B]

Try adding your own special flavor to any map you play on by inviting someone to your guild who has the intelligence to defend a base gank. Npcs add enough hazard with pindown and headshots. Your real problem seems to be that one can't train a monkey to go collapse on someone "spamming apply,nat stride and burning arrow" on your archers.

urania · Nov 03, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Deadly paradox - please, for the love of GW, nerf it into ether-renewal land.
And with it, kill A/Mo's.
Warmongers weapon - repeat the above.
Do something about packhunters...

Captain Robo · Nov 03, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Deadly paradox - please, for the love of GW, nerf it into ether-renewal land.
And with it, kill A/Mo's.
Warmongers weapon - repeat the above.
Do something about packhunters...

I don't agree with nerfing skills into oblivion. Why would you want more useless skills?

A/Mo's aren't going anywhere. Look at touchers; even they're still around.

Akaraxle · Nov 03, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

5) 3 monk backlines

this is too complicated. there are multiple threads discussing why we see 3 monkbacklines... splits involving SP sins, the effect of mend touch on the split meta, the effect of LOD on split meta, the hits to passive defense that have effected the defensive meta, over reliance on LoD and the effect on the defensive meta, the inability of 2 monk backlines to keep up with the ever increasing dmg in GvG, especially at VoD. You cant seriously stop people from running 3 monk backlines without seriously tackling a wide variety of issues plaguing game balance or without severely gimping monks so badly that running 3 is a bad idea.

I'm with you here: the thing to be looked at is WHY people are forced to run 3 monks (Nightfall power creep, sin splits, c-space builds, etc.). But I'm kind of afraid that the limited investment ANet is putting into PvP will end up into something like ZB or SoA nerf.

P.S. reduce ranger armor vs elements to +15 keke.
P.P.S. bring back Windborne Speed!
P.P.P.S. lol @ catfight above my post.

Seamus Finn · Nov 03, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I'm with you here: the thing to be looked at is WHY people are forced to run 3 monks (Nightfall power creep, sin splits, c-space builds, etc.). But I'm kind of afraid that the limited investment ANet is putting into PvP will end up into something like ZB or SoA nerf.

P.S. reduce ranger armor vs elements to +15 keke.
P.P.S. bring back Windborne Speed!

I am not convinced that people are "forced" to run the monk runner. In ATs it is often more a question of map abuse and on ladder it usually runs with the theory of "defense wins games" and, like blockway, is another tool that slows down the game pace so that the defensive team can find a workable solution to a problematic build.

moriz · Nov 03, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

i'll take the ranger armor reduction if i get troll unguent to be a 1 second cast.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 03, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Posts deleted. Go to Team Quitter if you want to have worthless "who r u" flame wars. This is a thread for actual PvP discussion.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 03, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Moriz should head over and check this thread as to why people run what they run as their runner in the current game.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10209218

The fact that 3monk backlines made Izzy's list makes me lol.

Reguarding the things he wants to look at all I can say;
Ancestors rage= switch it back to 10e
Recall= just delete the skill from game
bloodspike=having 4+ spike skills to choose from...you do the math
clum+inept mesmers=the hex duration is way to freaken long, promote "in the moment" skillful play plz

Akaraxle · Nov 03, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I am not convinced that people are "forced" to run the monk runner. In ATs it is often more a question of map abuse and on ladder it usually runs with the theory of "defense wins games" and, like blockway, is another tool that slows down the game pace so that the defensive team can find a workable solution to a problematic build.

Blockway is there for a reason: without passive defense, LoD disabled means you die. The problem is power creep.

Tyla · Nov 03, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Deadly paradox - please, for the love of GW, nerf it into ether-renewal land.
And with it, kill A/Mo's.

sort out shadowstepping too

Channel_V93 · Nov 03, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Change Shadow Prison from Hex 66% slowdown to Cripple for 6..10 seconds.

Riotgear · Nov 03, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I don't agree with nerfing skills into oblivion. Why would you want more useless skills?

Because overpowered skills cause problems and skills nobody uses don't.
Because skills that throw most of the balancing mechanisms of a large number of other skills suck.

Quote:

Look at touchers; even they're still around.

Touchers are garbage. Chaining unconditional knockdowns, big spikes that mostly ignore prot, and a DW that you can't really do anything about because it's really a purple arrow until you die is a bit more powerful than something you can completely counter with your WASD keys.

Captain Robo · Nov 03, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Because overpowered skills cause problems and skills nobody uses don't.
Because skills that throw most of the balancing mechanisms of a large number of other skills suck.

I guess I'm too altruistic in hoping that people will stop abusing skills like that. If that's the case, you're right: shut them down.

Quote:

Touchers are garbage. Chaining unconditional knockdowns, big spikes that mostly ignore prot, and a DW that you can't really do anything about because it's really a purple arrow until you die is a bit more powerful than something you can completely counter with your WASD keys.

A/Mo's have been dealt with only minimally in the last two updates, I don't think they're going anywhere. Quite unfortunate for the rest of us who refuse to play such a retarded build.

Also, in response to the earlier comment about E/Mo runners vs. Monk runners:

While water snares on a runner do add considerable utility and variety to a flag stand battle, I have yet to see an E/Mo runner that can hold his own against an unblockable sin. Blurred vision and snares are the only things that can help you in that fight, because any self healing skills are completely negated by Shattering Assault.

This is, of course, a very specific example, but unblockable sins do see a lot of play, and if they get the drop on a flagger, that usually means morale for the other team.

Monk runners have some more self-preserving skills, are a bit more resilient against unblockable sins. But you can't reintroduce E/Mo runners until you deal with unblockable sins.

Ugh... GW2 please.

Tyla · Nov 03, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Channel_V93

Change Shadow Prison from Hex 66% slowdown to Cripple for 6..10 seconds.

dont forget theres also its non-elite counterpart and maybe the nifty water spell,icy shackles for a snare:P

urania · Nov 03, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

A/Mo's have been dealt with only minimally in the last two updates, I don't think they're going anywhere. Quite unfortunate for the rest of us who refuse to play such a retarded build.

they havent been dealt with at all.

the so-called nerf changed nothing.

moriz · Nov 03, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

i've read ensign's post. i also understand what it said. toning down the NF powercreep will fix the problems in today's gvg far more than toning up the monks.

however, keep in mind that we're also dealing with a skill balancer who's "horribly addicted to TF2", and wants to see everyone not just get rolled over, but absolutely blown up by high powered offense. his method of recapturing the back-and-forth, high-intensity battles of pre-NF gvg is to make everything do more damage. i don't think i need to remind everyone how that went. as such, good luck trying to convince him to tone down physical offense, 'cause that's not gonna happen. the only viable alternative is toning up the monks to keep pace, or else he's gonna go for the next possible option, which is nerfing select monk skills to dissuade monk runners, and at the same time force everyone to stock up on passive defense again because of possible weaker stand monks.

you work with what you have, and hope what's possible given what you have. hoping that izzy will do the right thing, and toning down physical damage, is downright impossible. so the next possible option that izzy will accept, and doesn't ruin the game further is buffing the monks to keep pace.

now onto something else:

shadowstepping: make all shadowsteps 1 second cast and half casting range. if the user moves beyond radar range of the place he used the shadowstep, he automatically shadowstep back to that location. the "shadowstep back to original location if moved too far" condition does not apply to AoD, but it's maximum "returning" range should be casting range too.

black lotus strike: gain 1-3 energy, no damage bonus

ineptitude, clumsiness: change mechanics to "if target foe is attacking, that foe is interrupted" and take damage/get blinded. alternatively, we can just reduce the duration of both down to 1..2 seconds. my method might be overnerfing it though.