Curse

Snow Bunny · Nov 03, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Making troll unguent a 2s cast would be pretty awesome imo.

I agree with this. I've always felt that the 3s was a bit much, given that the investment into it was scaled pretty equally given the skill point investment.

Also, and I know this might be another discussion entirely, but Heal Sig needs to be 1 sec cast me thinks.

Ensign · Nov 03, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

an offensive runner doesn't need to keep the npcs alive, since it can easily repel/kill a split with npc support.

Those aren't the defensive concerns. At a bare minimum, a runner is expected to be able to do two defensive things:

1) Stay alive if he is jumped until his team can support him. This is actually the most important concern. You simply *cannot* give away a free boost if the other team feels like rushing your flagger. If a Warrior decides to follow you back to the base, you need to be able to live through it. If a sin jumps onto you just out of Monk range, you need to weather the spike. If your Monks need to fall back and support any push on the flagger, your flagger doesn't have enough defense.

2) Save an NPC when defending the base. You can in theory play your build a lot differently and not have this concern, splitting off a different character for base defense, but in practice that's not really tenable; your flagger needs to be defensive anyway because of point 1, and he's also usually the one closest as a first response to people in the base. Saving NPCs doesn't mean he needs to be able to power heal them; it just means that an opponent can't kill NPCs at will in your face. For instance if you have a Ranger defending the base, it really isn't a Ranger duel + archer fire, it's one Ranger killing an archer and running away before the other Ranger kills him. That's something a competent player can do consistently, so you're not providing any real base defense with your Ranger - they can still pick off your NPCs at will.

There are other concerns depending on what else you want your runner to do; for instance if you want to be able to push a flagger with him he needs so much defense and utility; he needs even more defense if you want to be able to puch the other team's base using him as your backline. But it's really just those two concerns that are required - save yourself when jumped, and stabilize an NPC under fire. Everything else is optional.

That's why strong, compact defensive skills like Weapon of Warding are so valuable for runner diversity - they allow the character to get by in those important roles, and dedicate more of their skill slots and attribute points to doing other jobs.

moriz · Nov 03, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

i'm not advocating a runner with no defensive ability whatsoever. a return of the E/Rt runner is perfectly agreeable with me. all i'm trying to say that a buff to flagstand monks will eliminate the need of a completely defensive runner (not entirely of course, but it's generally better to run a runner with some offensive ability if you're not counting on it to provide massive healing support for the flagstand).

Ensign · Nov 03, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

all i'm trying to say that a buff to flagstand monks will eliminate the need of a completely defensive runner

Oh, in that case your point doesn't make any sense. I don't pay any attention to what the flagstand Monks are doing when deciding what to do with a runner; the trend towards more defensive runners has nothing to do with the state of the flagstand Monks. Hell, the biggest thing modern Monk runners add while at the stand is cripple spam. You're making a correlation that doesn't exist.

Vaga · Nov 03, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I think a decision needs to be made on whether Izzy can actually fix the NPC ai so that they don't get completely dominated by AoE or balance AoE around the fact that at VoD it gives you a huge advantage.

He's tried for so long I really have doubts as to whether he can actually do anything about the AI.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 03, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Suggestion for spiritway, stop nerfing the ritualists and nerf something else, maybe the rangers, maybe Soul Reaping, just stop using the ritualist as the nerf target.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 03, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

2) They added ridiculous overpowered speedbuffs

I don't understand why they added pious haste, dash, and storm djinns, they only nerf skill in the game.

If they anally hurt those skills, perhaps the runners would be fixed again. This would also solve splinterweapon runner issues.

I totally agree with this, I was actually wondering if it was just me that thought that pious haste and to a lesser extent storm djinns and dash were completely insane..

On another note:

To reduce the effectiveness of AoE at VoD, just reduce the amount/importance of NPCs.

To give more time to actually accomplish something on splits other than creating a minor NPC advantage, move VoD back to 25 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Suggestion for spiritway, stop nerfing the ritualists and nerf something else, maybe the rangers, maybe Soul Reaping, just stop using the ritualist as the nerf target.

Quote:

Profession: Rt/

You're an idiot.

Xioden · Nov 03, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Wouldn't hurt for NPC builds to be looked at either. Until they're ganged up 10:1 at VoD, it takes a complete idiot to die against them. Vary the builds a bit, give them some better builds. Throw in something other than Warriors and archers. Make it so that a single person can't systematically take down every NPC one-by-one. I'm not saying make it impossible, just make it something that you couldn't train a monkey to do.

Some changes based on the map would be neat too, Isle of meditation for example, make an elite archer or two that has a monster-skill to extend their range a bit (aswell as 2-3x faster arrow speed so they can actually hit), have them be up by the top flag stand and shoot down (scripted to not shoot other elite archers so they're not simply dueling it out). Isle of the dead throw in some undead NPC's that respawn 2-3 minutes after being killed. Weak wurms on Nomads isle/isle of the wurm.

Make the maps actually more than just a different layout with a hazard or two that are more or less irrelevent anyway.

Dzan · Nov 03, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Why hasnt LoD been changed to shout range like Aegis and then we can all move along?

Living Parasite · Nov 03, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

No nerfing LoD at this state in the game is definatly NOT the way to move ahead in the game. That's moving backwards.

DIH49 · Nov 03, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh, in that case your point doesn't make any sense. I don't pay any attention to what the flagstand Monks are doing when deciding what to do with a runner; the trend towards more defensive runners has nothing to do with the state of the flagstand Monks.

I disagree and point to LoD runners as evidence. The double LoD builds are a direct result of how the enemy can focusfire all over your stand LoD.

Ensign · Nov 03, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I disagree and point to LoD runners as evidence. The double LoD builds are a direct result of how the enemy can focusfire all over your stand LoD.

Run a LoD runner on open ladder. Dare you.

It's something you can gamble on when you want to bet that your opponent has no ability to split whatsoever...you can run pretty much anything in that case. If you're stuck with an LoD runner and your opponent has the ability to split, good luck to you.

Besides, when I do bring an LoD runner it's not because anything is different with the stand Monks. It's because my opponent has thrown all the standard reasons for why runners are built as they are, self defense, split defense, out the window, and I'm free to run whatever I want.

It's a radically different set of pressures than the ones that have led to the common set of runner bars.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 03, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Making troll unguent a 2s cast would be pretty awesome imo.

This is a buff I'm torn on. While Troll is a terrible skill that could use a buff, rangers are already incredibly difficult to kill in skirmish thanks to Natural Stride and their interrupts/removal that make them resilient to snares. I'm hesitant to further buff their defensive options for that reason.

Yue · Nov 03, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Run a LoD runner on open ladder. Dare you.

Alot of people already have.

Quote:

This is a buff I'm torn on. While Troll is a terrible skill that could use a buff, rangers are already incredibly difficult to kill in skirmish thanks to Natural Stride and their interrupts/removal that make them resilient to snares. I'm hesitant to further buff their defensive options for that reason.

I kind of said that as a joke. Personally, I would love to have it be 2s. However, as you've said, rangers are typically notoriously hard to kill. It's rather difficult to determine whether or not a buff to 2s would make the skill somewhat overpowered.

Bankai · Nov 03, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

Wouldn't hurt for NPC builds to be looked at either. Until they're ganged up 10:1 at VoD, it takes a complete idiot to die against them. Vary the builds a bit, give them some better builds. Throw in something other than Warriors and archers. Make it so that a single person can't systematically take down every NPC one-by-one. I'm not saying make it impossible, just make it something that you couldn't train a monkey to do.

Some changes based on the map would be neat too, Isle of meditation for example, make an elite archer or two that has a monster-skill to extend their range a bit (aswell as 2-3x faster arrow speed so they can actually hit), have them be up by the top flag stand and shoot down (scripted to not shoot other elite archers so they're not simply dueling it out). Isle of the dead throw in some undead NPC's that respawn 2-3 minutes after being killed. Weak wurms on Nomads isle/isle of the wurm.

Make the maps actually more than just a different layout with a hazard or two that are more or less irrelevent anyway.

The NPCs aren't supposed to be good. They're not supposed to kill. There are only two reasons for them to be there: To make sure you can't just run into the base and kill the guild lord, and to force deaths at VoD.

DIH49 · Nov 03, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Run a LoD runner on open ladder. Dare you.

As Yue mentioned, people already do. However I admit to being less concerned with general ladder play than tournament play. I certainly don't need to tell you about running map specific builds, and a second LoD is what you use when you're expecting humsig mesmers on degen teams to be against you. So long as AT maps remain on a constant and forewarned basis, I think this is an entirely fair concern.

Vaga · Nov 03, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

Wouldn't hurt for NPC builds to be looked at either. Until they're ganged up 10:1 at VoD, it takes a complete idiot to die against them. Vary the builds a bit, give them some better builds. Throw in something other than Warriors and archers. Make it so that a single person can't systematically take down every NPC one-by-one. I'm not saying make it impossible, just make it something that you couldn't train a monkey to do.

Some changes based on the map would be neat too, Isle of meditation for example, make an elite archer or two that has a monster-skill to extend their range a bit (aswell as 2-3x faster arrow speed so they can actually hit), have them be up by the top flag stand and shoot down (scripted to not shoot other elite archers so they're not simply dueling it out). Isle of the dead throw in some undead NPC's that respawn 2-3 minutes after being killed. Weak wurms on Nomads isle/isle of the wurm.

Make the maps actually more than just a different layout with a hazard or two that are more or less irrelevent anyway.

Do you even play the game? You're basically saying make non dedicated splits impossible when we almost want the opposite.

iriyabran · Nov 03, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

make SP and DP shadow step spells not hexes

reduce the duration of Rigor Mortis
make it unusable by secondary necromancers ;}

moriz · Nov 03, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh, in that case your point doesn't make any sense. I don't pay any attention to what the flagstand Monks are doing when deciding what to do with a runner; the trend towards more defensive runners has nothing to do with the state of the flagstand Monks. Hell, the biggest thing modern Monk runners add while at the stand is cripple spam. You're making a correlation that doesn't exist.

for you the correlation doesn't exist. you have the luxury of having probably the best monk backline in the game. that extra set of prot and big heal from ZB that a monk runner can provide is mostly meaningless to you.

for the rest of us, when we decide to roll a monk runner, it's because we expect it to essentially function as a third monk at the stand when we need it to. monk runners are strong enough at the stand to be that third monk of the backline, as well as help stabilize a team when one of the monks go down.

that's why most of us use monk runners. if we don't expect it to essentially function as a monk at some time in the match, we'll go with something else. that correlates why stronger stand monks will remove the need for them. if the stand monks' skills are made a little stronger, much of the need for a monk runner is removed.

Ego · Nov 03, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

When we pick a Monk Flagger it's cause we expect (Or face in normal ladder.) alot of Assassin splits which can be difficult to handle with a Rt or Ele, not to have extra healing at the stand.