Curse

Kiluna · Jun 05, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I want to say first that my experience is limited to RA mainly and i've played (only) little over month. Got 20 Monk and Warrior, both PvE chars and working on weapon sets atm for my monk, so i can start PvP with her.

I love playing monk in PvP, but since RA is home of weird builds and (not to be rude, but) "idiot" people, i find myself playing on spiker ele or sin most of time. Mainly because i've failed finding a good build that suits my playstyle and actually works (and don't get laughed at).

Biggest problem i've run to is energy managment (sp?), while [skill=text]Zealous Benediction[/skill] is kinda nice for that, i for some reason fail to use it at below 50% (many player taking dmg, heavy degen on every etc. so i use it way too early and could have used something better) Maybe i panic little, and it will get better with experience, also that as my main experience with Monk is from PvE so i'm used to Healing Prayers, which works totally different way than Protection.

Second biggest problem is self defence, i have no problems keeping my team alive, as long as i don't anything after me. If i and lets say 2 more from my team is taking dmg i run into problems, it's my energy which runs out or i get unlucky (or maybe that gets better with experience) and i heal "wrong" person who wouldn't have actually died, leading to dead team member.

I have tryed 3 self-defense combos so far:
1) [skill=text]Hex Breaker[/skill] + [skill=text]Holy Veil[/skill]
This counters hex based sins, Most anti monk hex builds etc. But is weak against stuns (hammer warriors, [skill=text]Shock[/skill] + [skill=text]Bull's Strike[/skill] warriors and other stun based builds)

2) [skill=text]Balanced Stance[/skill] + [skill=text]Shield Bash[/skill]
While this one shines where #1 is weak, but it's weak against hexes, in my opinion. Shield Bashing Assassins 'lead attack', or which ever is their first attack in their chain, is always nice.

3) [skill=text]Return[/skill] + [skill=text]Dark Escape[/skill]
"Self Life Bond" with snare shadow step away is nice, but have same weakness as #1 when it comes to stun.

Also i have been thinking about something really weird one:
600hp + [skill=text]Spirit Bond[/skill] + [skill=text]Frenzied Defense[/skill] + [skill=text]Protective Spirit[/skill]
This looks nice in paper, but uses 3 slots as self defence.
Melee hits that get through Frenzied should nearly always do that 60 dmg, thanks to double dmg taken which will tigger SB. Direct Elemental dmg should be always that 60dmg as i've never seen people run with anything that would hit less than 30 dmg

3th problem, while not as big as other 2, but still a problem; is hex removal, while holy veil is nice, it's still 1 hex per 12 sec, which isn't enough vs. SS+IP with cover hexes on your melees. Only fast recharge, low energy cost, fast cast removal there is, is [skill=text]Expel Hexes[/skill], but it would mean no ZB (which i really like as ex PvE Healing Prayers -player) and forces to take Mesmer as secondary.
Other 2 nice removals are: [skill=text]Empathic Removal[/skill] and [skill=text]Signet of Removal[/skill], but like the first one, are both elites which will lower my healing alot as protection build. As i stated earlyer about my energy managment problems, Purge Signet with -energy set isn't option here, at least not yet with my experience.

I would be grateful if someone could help newbie monk with hes problems to be better monk and have change to get in good TA teams

Cammy · Jun 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

As all the experts have said before (and now I believe it too lol), frenzied defense + prot spirit just isn't worth it. It costs too much energy, plus prot spirit isn't as effective in arenas as spirit bond is.

Defense-wise, Mo/A with Return and Dark Escape work nicely. Mo/W with Disciplined Stance is also good. Versus daze, it's best if you have someone else get rid of it for you. But of course that's not going to happen in RA. So if you're a Mo/A you can use Dark Escape/Return to get to a safe spot and remove it. If you're a Mo/W, activating disciplined stance followed by condition removal is a 75% chance of getting rid of daze.

For hex removal, pre-veiling is important. Personally I like taking 2 hex removal skills, one being holy veil and the other being purge signet/smite hex/deny hexes. It won't be much help when you're up against 3 necros and a mesmer, but it's about the best you can do for an arena build that uses zb. Make sure you know which hexes to remove though. Diversion (via veil), backfire (either veil or spirit bond + hex removal), migraine, melee hate on your melee, etc. For degen spam, if you can't spare time to remove them you can usually get by with just wait for health bars to go <50 and zb.

As for energy management, in the arenas I think zb is your best bet. It takes awhile to get used to timing zb for the energy return but with enough practice it becomes second nature. Other than that, passive energy management is vital. Don't top off health, use Reversal of Fortune only in emergencies, prepot against dervs/eles with spirit bond and you should be fine.

It also helps to constantly tab through enemies so you see if the necro is about to use insidious parasite on your melee, if the mesmer is about to backfire/migraine you, if the ele is about to spike you, etc. Finally, pre-kiting and kiting are perhaps the most important forms of damage prevention in the game. If you see melee coming for you, run. It saves energy and it relieves pressure of your teammates if the enemy stays on you.

Also look at zui and mokone's posts about weapon sets, armor, etc. (and all of their other posts too...<3 zui)

I'm a crap monk myself and I can't do any of the things I listed above =P. But in theory, those are what makes an effective monk ^_^

TheOneMephisto · Jun 05, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

BTW, mouse movement is better than anything at pre-kiting. The moment you see any melee running towards you at all almost, immediately start clicking behind you. Since you're both moving at the same speed (assuming no speedboost on either of you), it'll take him forever to reach you. Once you start moving out of ranger of your party, you can start moving around your team (continuing to use the mouse) and the enemy might get closer and reach you, but you'll have wasted an immense amount of his/her time.

Remember, kiting and pre-kiting is energy management at no cost besides having to pay attention.

Metanoia · Jun 07, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Also i have been thinking about something really weird one:
600hp + [skill=text]Spirit Bond[/skill] + [skill=text]Frenzied Defense[/skill] + [skill=text]Protective Spirit[/skill]
This looks nice in paper, but uses 3 slots as self defence.
Melee hits that get through Frenzied should nearly always do that 60 dmg, thanks to double dmg taken which will tigger SB. Direct Elemental dmg should be always that 60dmg as i've never seen people run with anything that would hit less than 30 dmg

[dirty lies]Unfortunately, Spirit Bond only takes the original damage into account when deciding whether or not to trigger. So, whether the damage has been doubled(Frenzied), halved(Dark Escape) or reduced to 10% of your maximum hitpoints(Protective Spirit) afterwards, it doesn't matter.[/dirty lies]

Edit: Nevermind me, TheOneMephisto is right. My master plan to spread misinformation... foiled. :'(
Note: Spirit Bond still checks damage before Protective Spirit's mitigation whichever order they're cast in.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 07, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Unfortunately, Spirit Bond only takes the original damage into account when deciding whether or not to trigger. So, whether the damage has been doubled(Frenzied), halved(Dark Escape) or reduced to 10% of your maximum hitpoints(Protective Spirit) afterwards, it doesn't matter.

I'm almost certain that's wrong. I think that spirit bond depends on stacking order with frenzied defense (frenzied->spirit bond works, spirit bond->frenzied doesn't?), but don't quote me on that.

moko · Jun 07, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I'm almost certain that's wrong. I think that spirit bond depends on stacking order with frenzied defense (frenzied->spirit bond works, spirit bond->frenzied doesn't?), but don't quote me on that.

clicky

Quote:

prepot against dervs/eles/sins with spirit bond and you should be fine.

enbolded = NO! sins only hit for > 60 with BladesOS, and that single thing is not worth it. just rof -> condition removal.

Cammy · Jun 08, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Thanks Mokone

FIXED!!

waaaah I fail at monk T_T

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Thank you Mokone. I'm also pretty sure that was the exact post that I read before which made me think that the order mattered (that and reading threads about farming with frenzy + spirit bond).

Cammy · Jun 09, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Okay so I'm wondering why people use purge sig.

Sure, it doesn't req any energy and it removes all hexes and conditions, but it's sooo slow, it has a looong recharge, and it doesn't heal via divine favor.

So why?!?!

The Real Roy Keane · Jun 10, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cammy

Okay so I'm wondering why people use purge sig.

Sure, it doesn't req any energy and it removes all hexes and conditions, but it's sooo slow, it has a looong recharge, and it doesn't heal via divine favor.

So why?!?!

Um.. you sort've answered you own question there.

moko · Jun 10, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

haha, yeah, it's a very good choice to remove hexstacks on your melees (making them completely useless while dealing good damage), when for example, a veil would only remove a cover hex, and a divert hexes only half of them, for a very expensive price.

sure the recharge is high, but it's more or less equal with what is getting stacked.

also, in condition heavy builds, it's good if you face dazed (while a really good ranger will still be dangerous, it's better than mending touch or nothing).

and of course, it's just so cheap and fit's on SO many bars, not just the monks.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 10, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

and of course, it's just so cheap and fit's on SO many bars, not just the monks.

True dat. I've run purge signet on everything from mesmers to necros to monks to rangers to warriors. All it requires is that the character be good enough that they know how to carry a low-energy swap and to use it properly, and it costs almost nothing for a huge benefit. In fact, that only bars it doesn't fit onto are ele bars due to estorage.

l)l2UNl( · Jun 21, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Most of the time as soon as the match starts the opposing team gives me all its love (boom: backfire, migraine, conundrum, cripshot, 2 thumpers sitting on my face in a matter of seconds), result: match lost in a couple of seconds.

any experienced PvP grps know to never do this. yes they may send something on the monk such as a RaO but rarely will the situation occur where the whole team is ganking on the monk. In this case your team are given a clear path to their backline since all of tehir frontline is overextending. have fun killing squishys

in any case a monk should be able to to anticipate what the other team is going to throw on it thus a monk is able to quickly react during a match.

Sabe · Jun 22, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

clicky

enbolded = NO! sins only hit for > 60 with BladesOS, and that single thing is not worth it. just rof -> condition removal.

This is one I do debate,

a) casting two skills slightly longer
b) an ele etc. may decide to join in on the kill hence the rof wont be worth it
c) spirit bond @ energy cost of 10 plus dismiss condition = 100 health and deepwound removal + protection for any after spike

To keep pumping Rof's is not energy efficient so SB can be a good idea imo.
Although I would use Shielding hands / Shield of Absorption and then dismiss condition

Genova · Nov 03, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I can't decide between clicking on the party panel and clicking on weapon sets... My problem comes from the fact that clicking on those distracts your attention from the battlefield for a few seconds (need to aim to not misclick), and is way too slow. Cycling equipment doesn't work well for me because with 4 sets, cyclying up or down isn't quick enough if you need the third while on the first (need to cycle twice), hence the need for keybind or click.

Fixed setup
Skills : 8 keys.
Movement : 4 keys.
Utility (show targets/others, next/previous/nearest/priority target) : 6 keys.
Cancel is on mouse, Spacebar for action.

Unassigned
Party members : 8 keys.
Weapon sets : 4 keys.

Clicking on party members
Pros : Really straightforward, not prone to mistake. That's what I use when the pace is fast. I pre-select the spiked target and as soon as damage get in I infuse/prot. Also, I don't get the feeling that I have useless keys (in case of RA/TA you need 4 less).
Cons : Slow at reacting if I'm not prepared. Sometimes I don't have time to look at the battle at all because of all the bars going down, so I try to make the bars go up to be safe. That's exactly when someone gets killed because of my focus on the bars. There are also those times when I can't cast because I didn't check the set I'm on (sometimes it doesn't activate). And there are also those times when I prot/heal someone safe (he has kitted far enough), but since I wasn't looking at him, just wasted energy.

Clicking on weapon sets
Pros : Frees the keys to bind party members. Since I have to look at the set I choose I have instant feedback if it doesn't resolve (knockdown, bad timing with skills, etc).
Cons : The tooltips are way too huge and can't be hidden. This means that I can't put it near the center (I would see nothing). Being forced to keep it away from the center forces me to look elsewhere (to be sure that the swap is done). Furthermore there are those time when I need to react fast, but I can't because I need to remember what is the key for this bar going down fast, instead of just clicking on it.

What would you suggest for general use ? I would like to use only the keyboard but you need the mouse, so what's the best thing to do with it ?

To Chicken To Die · Nov 04, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Hey,

I have been a monk for 30 months now and what I see is that it is mostley exp to be a better monk. You also need to know all monk skills and tried them and all other skills. So try to go other prof as well and play there common builds for starter to learn what they do etc.

Like if you use parasite and it just keep getting removed because of a hex remove skill by a foes monk you gain great healing (with this part I just love avater of dwayna

).

Also do not simply and dumb play pre-made build like ZB and bonder builds. Create your own build and try them out. I recently played with Healers Boon and healing skills (did great got 21 wins at a moment in RA). A good monk just can pick any elite skill no mather wich one and use it at it's max.

Don't go pick all high skill (just call it like this

like first draw conditions, mend touch and more and more combo's) just use simple skills like orison of healing or dwayna's kiss those work great as well.

LoD is getting very usefell in RA as well at the moment cuz you can heal even if your party member is at the other side of the map in a HB map

A good way to practise is do RA cuz you get even the most worst players and you can practice by healing them. With TA you are used with your other party members and you know what they would do and they have bettter builds so you can get a bit lazy there.

Also learn how you can react a.s.a.p. By what I read a few topic before mine use the key's 1 till 8 to activate your skills.

This all are just my opnion after monking for 30 months but even I make mistakes and crappy builds but thats just to learn from. Do not be discouraged by failers.

And don't mind any wrong spelled words I am crappy in every language

Zui · Nov 04, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Hey,

I have been a monk for 30 months now and what I see is that it is mostley exp to be a better monk. You also need to know all monk skills and tried them and all other skills. So try to go other prof as well and play there common builds for starter to learn what they do etc.

Like if you use parasite and it just keep getting removed because of a hex remove skill by a foes monk you gain great healing (with this part I just love avater of dwayna

).

Also do not simply and dumb play pre-made build like ZB and bonder builds. Create your own build and try them out. I recently played with Healers Boon and healing skills (did great got 21 wins at a moment in RA). A good monk just can pick any elite skill no mather wich one and use it at it's max.

Don't go pick all high skill (just call it like this

like first draw conditions, mend touch and more and more combo's) just use simple skills like orison of healing or dwayna's kiss those work great as well.

LoD is getting very usefell in RA as well at the moment cuz you can heal even if your party member is at the other side of the map in a HB map

A good way to practise is do RA cuz you get even the most worst players and you can practice by healing them. With TA you are used with your other party members and you know what they would do and they have bettter builds so you can get a bit lazy there.

Also learn how you can react a.s.a.p. By what I read a few topic before mine use the key's 1 till 8 to activate your skills.

This all are just my opnion after monking for 30 months but even I make mistakes and crappy builds but thats just to learn from. Do not be discouraged by failers.

And don't mind any wrong spelled words I am crappy in every language

Everyone seeking to become a better Monk should disregard this post in its entirety.

Tab · Nov 04, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

LoD in RA? I lol'd.

To Chicken To Die · Nov 07, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

The most thing I like is when you use those skills people call you a noob untill the have seen what it can do( and there surprised and ask if your high ranked). Don't care if you don't want to submit my post as said it is what I think about it and not what you talk what you heard so read if you haven't had it but just replay it. just sad.

Tab · Nov 07, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

No, party wide heals in 4v4 are just bad.