Curse

TheOneMephisto · Nov 17, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

yeah but they devote their whole bar to one purpose, sacrificing all utility other than those which lead to the kill. a worthy price to pay for what they want to achieve... instagib.

which WAS a non-conformist but positive aspect of the game. monk reflexes got sharper than ever. midliners and runners and archers lived in constant fear. (omg am i next?) etc.

not every class should be required to TAB-hmm what skill to use-TAB-hmm what skill to use-TAB in order to be considered acceptable.

Wait, so everyone else had to live in fear and play perfect games in order to survive... one person hitting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and then running away. I'm sorry, but that isn't a positive aspect of the game. I'm all for powerful offensive split templates, but things that just kill so quickly and efficiently without any involved skill are just bad.

And if you think that's how most builds are played then you are bad at the game. Of course, that's already pretty much been established.

LifesRestorer · Nov 17, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

right, instead it should be tab 12345678

stop trying to win a lost argument. its not losing, its been lost. monks reflexes didnt get sharper. most of the combo went under spirit bond, small prots that would stop the spike would be too slow of a cast to catch it. SoD was nullified by expose and that couldn't simply be removed because it was covered by SP too fast.

X Cytherea X · Nov 17, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

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And if you think that's how most builds are played then you are bad at the game.

ok perhaps it was an oversimplification but you get the general idea

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right, instead it should be tab 12345678

more like tab-oh look no prots and im not blind-1234567 or t-1234567. which is admittedly simple but straightforward and necessary

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most of the combo went under spirit bond, small prots that would stop the spike would be too slow of a cast to catch it. SoD was nullified by expose and that couldn't simply be removed because it was covered by SP too fast.

hello infuse

neoflame · Nov 17, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Yes, let's force every split to have Infuse to deal with Assassins.

I have an idea: unnerf lolsins, then change Reversal of Fortune to be (5/0.25/2) "Enchantment Spell. If your target is an ally, for 8 seconds, the next time target ally would take damage, that ally gains that amount of Health instead, maximum 15...67. Otherwise, if your target is an Assassin foe, that foe dies." Hello Shadow Form?

Riotgear · Nov 17, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

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Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

I'm willing to bet if their aesthetic wasnt so "ninja like" and were called "Rogue"(or something else) we wouldnt be having this "omg naruto wannabe" discussion.

If the class was called "Fighter" and all of the skills were themed after bare-handed melee, they'd be just as broken. The fact that they're a ninja just adds to the aura of general stupidity surrounding them.

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It's more likely because of their increasing popularity from other games why they were implemented into the game.

People lean towards those classes for two reasons:
- They like one-sided fights, especially when they can easily initiate fights with a huge tactical advantage and avoid fights that put them at a disadvantage completely.
- They equate this "sneakiness" to "cleverness" as if toggling a stealth power requires anywhere near the amount of cleverness as concealment does in real life. Or in the case of Assassins, as if it requires any particular amount of skill to find a vulnerable target somewhere within earshot.

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stuff stuff the Assassin can't do stuff because of stuff

The class has a lot of issues, but their place is more defined on a split than the stand anyway. However, failing to address those issues does not justify making them grossly overpowered when the circumstances present themselves.

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yeah but they devote their whole bar to one purpose, sacrificing all utility other than those which lead to the kill. a worthy price to pay for what they want to achieve... instagib.

Pretty much any other class would scoff at the concept of scrapping utility for more raw damage. Utility is what gives classes the tactical versatility to be useful, and challenges them to make decisions to use them properly. It's what makes the game interesting. The fact that people were willing to jettison that to make one single mode of operation stronger should prove by itself that the single mode of operation was too effective.

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anyways, onto a different but related topic: why was horns nerfed, instead of blades of steel?

Ekelon had some interesting insight into that, which makes some sense: A large part of the problem was Assassins kicking the shit out of a target that was on their ass. By hitting Horns itself instead of other skills, they address that problem without having to address the others. It's actually very sensible, but Anet has done a very poor job of reflecting that (which may result in their reversion, unfortunately).

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There simply shouldn't be something that powerful at killing UNLESS it takes massive amounts of skill to play, and assassins didn't take that skill but still killed that well.

This sums it up well.

Bankai · Nov 17, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Cytherea, let me start out by saying that you're an idiot if you play "Tab- hmm what skill to use-Tab-hmm what skill to use".

Secondly, the problem with SP sins was/is that they can devote their whole skillbar to killing, but a few of those skills have support built into them. SP starts the bar, but you negate a lot of problems with it. HotO is mid-combo, and not only did it deal quite a lot of damage, but you'd get a knockdown in the most useful place in a combo: just before the deep wound/final spike. The downside of HotO is negated by the fact that preferrably, the sin doesn't attack people in teams: they're better at picking out 1-2 guys who're on their own, with nobody to stand next to.

Oh, and it IS a gigantic problem if there's a class that evades all defense. Let's say in chess that the knight can now choose how many squares he moves, instead of the standard L-shape, while still being able to jump over stuff. Isn't that bad? Melee was built around the fact that there is a lot to counter it.

Aerial Assault · Nov 17, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

The fact that they're a ninja just adds to the aura of general stupidity surrounding them.

And why would it do that? If anything, you have the likes of adult swim and whoever the hell watches those dumb programs to blame. Its this kind of associative pigeon-holing I detest, and is uncalled for.

You dont equate everyone who likes to play sin a "narutard" do you? Obviously not, since you seem to respect the likes of Ekelon....

Its that kind of statements that encourage that kind of thinking.That's why I want to squash that shit. Anet implemented sins into the game, over a year ago already, so stop crying about it. Im not even denying their playstyle is broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

People lean towards those classes for two reasons:
- They like one-sided fights, especially when they can easily initiate fights with a huge tactical advantage and avoid fights that put them at a disadvantage completely.
- They equate this "sneakiness" to "cleverness" as if toggling a stealth power requires anywhere near the amount of cleverness as concealment does in real life.

Once again, as with the sins, shadowstepping was implemented in game. No use crying about it. It DOES equate to tactical advantage in movement, it DOES equate to "surprise" sneak attacks which I believe to be fair, for reasons stated in previous posts.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 17, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

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Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

Once again, as with the sins, shadowstepping was implemented in game. No use crying about it. It DOES equate to tactical advantage in movement, it DOES equate to "surprise" sneak attacks which I believe to be fair, for reasons stated in previous posts.

Aerial.
I'd love to show you how your so called shadowstepping "tactical movement" was fair on even uncharted isle when your flagger went to cap the flag stand. Ask David The Hammer about that one.

My runner comes in while I have recall on him just as the other runner comes and I tele and pwn the runner. Morale+10.

Riotgear · Nov 17, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

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Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

And why would it do that? If anything, you have the likes of adult swim and whoever the hell watches those dumb programs to blame.

The popularity of ninjas/assassins dates back a lot further than Naruto. Do I even need to refer to a few things that were popular in the early 90's? Or mention their presence in practically every fighting game ever?

Implementing them in Factions was pandering at its finest.

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You dont equate everyone who likes to play sin a "narutard" do you? Obviously not, since you seem to respect the likes of Ekelon....

I respect Ekelon because he has a good deal of insight into this situation. I don't care that he plays an Assassin, because he's doing what competitive players do, and that's play what wins. He doesn't obsess over them, in fact he's been lobbying for adjustments to them for a while.

There is a critical difference between playing something frequently and believing that it is balanced, well-designed, or even a remotely good idea. If something is overpowered, you bet your ass I'm going to be playing it, because I like to win. I played the shit out of Me/E when Blinding Surge was 5e, and I knew it was broken. I didn't defend it for a second either.

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Once again, as with the sins, shadowstepping was implemented in game. No use crying about it. It DOES equate to tactical advantage in movement, it DOES equate to "surprise" sneak attacks which I believe to be fair, for reasons stated in previous posts.

The common theme throughout Guild Wars PvP was to reward skill above all. As far as damage-dealing roles go, melee has inherently required the most skill, and provided the highest rewards, because it has the most drawbacks and requires the most skill to capitalize on: You can only attack a target in the general vicinity, your movement partially gives away your intentions, you're prone to blocks and miss-causing effects, and your targets can mitigate your damage just by running away from you.

Shadow stepping essentially jettisons the vast majority of that risk, shadow stepping with a hard snare jettisoning even more of it. So how exactly do you balance a melee class that gets to ignore the challenges that are supposed to make melee worth running?

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 17, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

So how exactly do you balance a melee class that gets to ignore the challenges that are supposed to make melee worth running?

Delete and let the wannabies go to wow.

LifesRestorer · Nov 17, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

my bro said they implimented shadow stepping to wow last week and its already RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing broken. so its not just a problem in this game anymore XD

dont feel no pain · Nov 17, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

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Originally Posted by Almighty Zi

Magebane - way too good. The 5 second recharge coupled with the fact that it's unblockable is what makes it problematic. Ranger interupts are meant to be balanced around the fact that they can be blocked.

thats why its an elite ranger interupt...

ensoriki · Nov 17, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

I don't know about Magebane, its unblockable....but take it over crip shot?

Crip shot can let you slow down melee/runners.

Magebane is a buffed savage shot >.>

moko · Nov 17, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

i'm sick of your goddamn assassin crap. go make an own topic about it and stop RUINING EVERY SINGLE THREAD WITH IT.

aslo

BUILDWARS IS NOT GOOD. DON'T START ARGUING THIS WAY!

wow, get out now. srsly, i don't want anymore of this crap and random smartarses popping up out of the nowhere.

go make a new topic and keep this clean. -_-

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 17, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

I don't know about Magebane, its unblockable....but take it over crip shot?

Crip shot can let you slow down melee/runners.

Magebane is a buffed savage shot >.>

you mean dshot, right?
it has more similiarities to dat.

Greedy Gus · Nov 17, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

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Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

you mean dshot, right?
it has more similiarities to dat.

Well not really. The way to buff savage shot is to make it look more like d-shot. And I'd be certainly hard pressed to call magebane a 'buffed d-shot'. D-shot is an extremely powerful tool, but many teams can't even properly capitalize on the 20 second disable of a critical defensive skill. Disable down at 10 seconds begins to not even be a window of opportunity, and the skill plays more like a buffed savage shot (less risk/reward).

Tyla · Nov 17, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Well not really. The way to buff savage shot is to make it look more like d-shot. And I'd be certainly hard pressed to call magebane a 'buffed d-shot'. D-shot is an extremely powerful tool, but many teams can't even properly capitalize on the 20 second disable of a critical defensive skill. Disable down at 10 seconds begins to not even be a window of opportunity, and the skill plays more like a buffed savage shot (less risk/reward).

nah,magebane doesnt +damage

Turtle222 · Nov 17, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

cant they please pleassse revert ineptitude to what it was. now its not worthy of being an elite

Bankai · Nov 17, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I guess you've never used it on a frenzy-ing warrior at VoD.

Seraphim of Chaos · Nov 17, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

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Originally Posted by Turtle222

cant they please pleassse revert ineptitude to what it was. now its not worthy of being an elite

Get out, ineptitude is still a very usable elite.