Curse

Thomas.knbk · Sep 15, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Guided Weapon=10 energy
SoR=+24 armor

guiding weapon suffers from being in communing. Communing doesn't really have a lot of interesting skills outside of RA.

SoR would be an elite healing breeze at 24 armor.

twicky_kid · Sep 15, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Guided Weapon=10 energy
SoR=+24 armor

Would this solve anything?

No it wouldn't.

SoR's recharge needs to get hit along with the armor.

Guided weapon is SCREAMS interrupt me!! The cost isn't an issue.

Farin · Sep 16, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If you look at it that way, nerfing SoR would instantly make an entire family of builds viable again. /ponder.

Nah not really, people would just run monks or rits. Your snares aren't as good though so I wonder..

twicky_kid · Sep 16, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Nah not really, people would just run monks or rits. Your snares aren't as good though so I wonder..

3 monk backlines are becoming more into favor. I've even seen a SoD runner. Very annoying to kill.

Riotgear · Sep 16, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

When skills are not micro-intensive, such as Shield's Up, DA, Ward, Aegis etc. they should not have benefits anywhere near as high as they do.

Shields Up was a clunky skill before Leadership was both powering it and refunding most of its cost immediately. Nobody with a energy to spare really had an excuse to run Shields Up as anything other than a cockblock for ranger spike.

DA is broken for the same reason any other unremovable party-wide buff is.

Aegis and wards weren't really a problem before GoLE was allowing it to be run full-spec, and now the lower cost is allowing that even without GoLE. Fueling both was a lot less practical than it is right now. It wasn't practical to run wards on a Me/E or run Aegis on an energy-strained monk.

As much as I hate to suggest it, it might be GoLE's lower-end stats that need another tap. I don't like seeing wards/aegis being brought up as so problematic when they were both run a long time ago, and were never a problem then.

Personally I still see it largely as a side-effect of offensive power creep, not only is more layered defense needed to survive against ridiculous crap like triple-Mel's steamrollers, but it's possible to pack the same offensive power into fewer player slots, which means more room for devoting player slots to defense and support. I fully support changes to the more-mindless defensive options of changes come down for the more-mindless offensive options (i.e. Conjure, Melandru) as well.

Seamus Finn · Sep 16, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Shields Up was a clunky skill before Leadership was both powering it and refunding most of its cost immediately. Nobody with a energy to spare really had an excuse to run Shields Up as anything other than a cockblock for ranger spike.

Not Really. You are correct in it's use before nightfall, but it became a good skill not because paragons could use it, but because it counters paragons. Now there are TWO classes that are owned by a no cast time skill and both classes are common and powerful. The fact that paragons are so powerful just mean that you will probably run one and probably want to deal with one on the opposing team.

Vanquisher · Sep 16, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Shields Up was a clunky skill before Leadership was both powering it and refunding most of its cost immediately. Nobody with a energy to spare really had an excuse to run Shields Up as anything other than a cockblock for ranger spike.

DA is broken for the same reason any other unremovable party-wide buff is.

Aegis and wards weren't really a problem before GoLE was allowing it to be run full-spec, and now the lower cost is allowing that even without GoLE. Fueling both was a lot less practical than it is right now. It wasn't practical to run wards on a Me/E or run Aegis on an energy-strained monk.

As much as I hate to suggest it, it might be GoLE's lower-end stats that need another tap. I don't like seeing wards/aegis being brought up as so problematic when they were both run a long time ago, and were never a problem then.

Personally I still see it largely as a side-effect of offensive power creep, not only is more layered defense needed to survive against ridiculous crap like triple-Mel's steamrollers, but it's possible to pack the same offensive power into fewer player slots, which means more room for devoting player slots to defense and support. I fully support changes to the more-mindless defensive options of changes come down for the more-mindless offensive options (i.e. Conjure, Melandru) as well.

Aegis at 10e is bad.
Glyph needs to go 8...18.
SoD needs to be toned down.
SoR needs to be toned down.
Leadership needs to take a considerable hit.
Shield's Up needs to be toned down.
Watch Yourself needs to be toned down.
MoR needs to be toned down.
LoD could also be toned down.

The reasoning behind all of the passive defense being such a problem, is that there are just these defensive tools that Flaggers can use to effectively defend a base. They lack mobility, but a single Ele can easily keep NPC's alive, just as B-Flash did before. The thing with B-Flash was that it was actually interruptable, and the loss of the HP at the stand was often brutal. The loss isn't as bad now because you have LoD.

What makes it worse is that teams can take all of these things and form a super ultra defense ball of defense, and then never die.

SoR could go to 1...8 duration, 12r.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 16, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

SoR could go to 1...8 duration, 12r.

would need to be 10e, but I like the idea

twicky_kid · Sep 16, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Aegis at 10e is bad.
Glyph needs to go 8...18.
SoD needs to be toned down.
SoR needs to be toned down.
Leadership needs to take a considerable hit.
Shield's Up needs to be toned down.
Watch Yourself needs to be toned down.
MoR needs to be toned down.
LoD could also be toned down.

Don't forget about spirits. Once all these skills take a hit spirits will be the next best thing.

Greedy Gus · Sep 16, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Highly doubtful, spirits already have tons of drawbacks.

Farin · Sep 16, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Mostly agree with vanq's list. Shield's up I don't think is broken. WYSelf/GFTEyes should have the adrenaline cost increased to 6A with their respective effects amplified. That would be a hit to Leadership's energy engine, but it Leadership itself needs a change. MoR ward is kind of gay, perhaps it should only affect mesmer spells.

Spirits are a joke, if they get anywhere close to being meta there are some pretty hard counters, not worried.

twicky_kid · Sep 16, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Mostly agree with vanq's list. Shield's up I don't think is broken. WYSelf/GFTEyes should have the adrenaline cost increased to 6A with their respective effects amplified. That would be a hit to Leadership's energy engine, but it Leadership itself needs a change. MoR ward is kind of gay, perhaps it should only affect mesmer spells.

Spirits are a joke, if they get anywhere close to being meta there are some pretty hard counters, not worried.

I didn't think much of them either until I ran into a guild that was using Heroway with real players.

Its so much overload that even the highly defensive builds get overloaded.

Riotgear · Sep 17, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

What makes it worse is that teams can take all of these things and form a super ultra defense ball of defense, and then never die.

As I mentioned though, a lot of that is because of offensive power growth. Slotting a paragon gives you respectable offense and midline support all in one barely-counterable package with 90AL. Meanwhile Conjure and Melandru are also allowing for even more offense in the same number of player slots. There used to be cost involved in running so much defense, and that was taking a hit on offense, but that's obviously being offset by itself.

Watch Yourself and Shields Up, are both problems with the Paragon class, and need to be resolved as such rather than indirect nerfs to solve the larger problem. It's partially being poisoned by Aggressive Refrain letting Paragons spew out adrenaline shouts 33% more often, which in turn lets them spew out costly energy-based abilities 33% more often.

Shields Up in particular is a 10e spell parked on a class that normally has 2 pips of energy regen and in a line that normally doesn't have much use for midliners. Paragons, on the other hand, not only pay 4e instead of 10, but have no problem affording 15e spells because Leadership is so broken. What's the real problem here?

Leadership either needs to do something to the effects of shouts/echoes (i.e. affect duration) or just get cut down to some crappy effect like Strength and focus on packing it with good skills instead (.... you know, like Strength).

The problem needs to be solved in both directions.

Exactly what changes do you have in mind for SoD, by the way? It's expensive, it's short, and it's a far cry from passive.

kvndoom · Sep 17, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

I cringe at the number of warrior skills that have gotten nerfed already because of abuse by other classes. What's so sad is these skills generally aren't used a lot on warriors because they don't have energy management (Warrior's Endurance really doesn't count) and have to rely on managing adrenaline. But guess what? Rangers, Assassins, Paragons, and Dervishes have e-management built into their primary attributes, and 3 of those classes have more than 2 lousy pips of energy on top of that.

Ceylon Tea Cat · Sep 17, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

How about SP sin?

Just observe GvG Tournament: #4[DF] vs #99[Ryuk], almost at 6:00AM today (GMT)

Ridiculous damage output+knock down+deep wound+slow+poison...!?
Pressing 1~6 only to make such effects↑

Balanced?

"lead→off-hand→dual" rule no longer exist anymore now.
so I thought that dual attacks shouldn't be that powerful, especially they always attack twice.

Blades of steel, +60 dmg ea attack...double~trible of other professions' additional damage. cost 5EN only.
The 2 oxes, need somthing to trigger knockdown, but it's too easy to achieve. only 5EN again.

and Impale, need follow a dual attack, the easiest way to make deep wound ig... cost 5EN cast time1/4.

Edited: Add something about dual attacks.

Vaga · Sep 17, 2007, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Shields up is pretty broken, it's a non elite aoe sod that doesn't effect warriors and you can't do anything about it.

Everyone knows the SP sin is overpowered, but I'm sure there's another sin combo that pretty much instantly kills people if the standard SP bar gets nerfed. Izzy needs to tone down assassin damage and buff their utility.

Burton2000 · Sep 17, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Shields up wouldnt be so bad if you could interupt it but as it stands it just locks rangers out from interupting reliably.

BlackSephir · Sep 17, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

About Assa's skills, I'd really like to see Sharpen Daggers changed back to way it once was- for x seconds every critical hit causes bleeding for y seconds.

Before it was pretty good, even on crit barrager. Now it's pretty much "meh"

Thomas.knbk · Sep 17, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

About Assa's skills, I'd really like to see Sharpen Daggers changed back to way it once was- for x seconds every critical hit causes bleeding for y seconds.

Before it was pretty good, even on crit barrager. Now it's pretty much "meh"

good thing crit barragers were bad to begin with right?

Apok Omen · Sep 18, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Lower damage from Dervishes and Paragons.

Make Block cap at 50%, lower SoD to 50% block but add +10 armor to it.

Change the Leadership mechanic from energy gain to "shouts and chants become 2%...24% lower(1 Leadership to 12 leadership).

Lower energy on many Paragon skills afterwards.

Redo the Dervish forms based on the many suggestions in your "Skill Balance Summary".

Lower attack speed on Paragon to equal attack speed of Ranger.

Change Mirror of Disenchantment to "...each foe that loses an Enchantment also loses 1...2 Chant(s)/Shout(s)..." in order to make the skill actually worthy of a Domination skill and to be able to remove DA/SU!/WY!/GftE!/AoF.

Change the Necro hexes that effect Shouts/Chants to the similiar mechanic as Shame/Guilt. Ulcerous Lungs=xx energy lost after a Chant is failed from being casted. Vocal Minority=xx energy lost after a Shout is used. Then like Shame and Guilt, it ends. I believe this would help Necromancers become more useful as a balanced class to choose from, especially after the introduction of Defile Defenses.

Bring Boon/Prots out of extinction, seeing as how there is more enchant removal and more edenial, seems meaningless to keep them locked up.

These are my proposements, if you don't agree with me, then say how it would be better fixed.