Curse

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

my suggestion is equally compatible with divine spirit. glyph of lesser won't work as well, but you'll only be able to use it every 20 seconds or so, which kinda defeats the purpose of running such a spammable skill. splittable monks generally don't run ele secondary to begin with.

as for usability, i think it's quite obvious that my suggestion is the more usable version. that's what this skill needs to become. it needs to replace a few skills on a monk bar to open room for utility. that's where the strength of this skill should be.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Also, the skill should not be acting as your only Condi removal on the bar. No BL bar has ever been built like that and it would be a mistake if you went in such a route.

Uh, just for the record, I know plenty of people who ran BL as the only condi-removal on their bar. I know I did.

Back to topic, I agree with Moriz that the best way to handle BL is make it a versatile skill that facilitates bar compression, to allow players to take other non-elite skills that there often just isnt room for. The only way for that to happen is if it costs 5, so as to be clearly equivilent/superior to Gift and Dismiss. Sorry Zuranthium, your "unconditional +3" idea just seems clunky and artificial.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 13, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I like moriz' suggestions for Blessed Light. This game needs more splittable monk templates.

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

ok, let's consolidate what we have so far:

blessed light: 5e .75c 5r
target ally loses 1 hex and condition and is healed for 15...83...100 health. if a hex was removed this way, you lose 5 energy and target ally is healed for an additional 15...51...60 health.

those numbers are at 15 divine. so at 14 divine, if it heals a target with a hex, it heals a grand total of 195 health for 10 energy, with the possibility of only 5 energy. basically, this now pushes this skill into ZB's territory in terms of healing efficiency.

the numbers might be a little too high, so maybe lowering the bonus heal a little bit.

good/bad/overpowered?

Patccmoi · Aug 13, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

ok, let's consolidate what we have so far:

blessed light: 5e .75c 5r
target ally loses 1 hex and condition and is healed for 15...83...100 health. if a hex was removed this way, you lose 5 energy and target ally is healed for an additional 15...51...60 health.

those numbers are at 15 divine. so at 14 divine, if it heals a target with a hex, it heals a grand total of 195 health for 10 energy, with the possibility of only 5 energy. basically, this now pushes this skill into ZB's territory in terms of healing efficiency.

the numbers might be a little too high, so maybe lowering the bonus heal a little bit.

good/bad/overpowered?

This is definitely the best version up to now. At worse slightly lower the healing power, but i'm not sure it's necessary either. You ARE paying 10E if you get the full healing after all, and maybe all you did was remove a hex and so it's basically a double cost Cure Hex. Anyway, i'd really love to see this version in game, i've been a big supporter of 5E/5E if you remove a hex since a long time. It's the only real way to have the skill competitive with the current monk elites, which are VERY powerful at what they do.

linh · Aug 13, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Still bad. So basically if you use it to remove a hex, it will become the old BLight, with 10e, the cost is too much. Sure it heals a lot, but if when we only need a simple hex removal, no need to heal ? Thus, monks will still need another hex removal. Besides, Holy Veil is just too good of a single hex removal to not bring, unless u run Deny or Divert Hexes.
The bad of the old BLight is it can't replace anything, you still need another condition and hex removal. And so is your new BLight.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

No its not. If you paid attention, the skills that we want the new BLight to replace are Gift and Dismiss, which it will do a fine job at. No one said anything about replacing Veil - if BLight is changed in the way we are thinking about, I, and everyone, would still take another hex removal, and that would be fine. You would use Veil when you dont need a heal, use BLight when you do, and the efficiency would be great. Paying 10e for ~200 HP and a hex removal is just fine.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I don't agree with that direction. You really do not want BL to be the only condi removal on your bar.

This is perhaps a little pointless, though, since there are several other Monk skills that need to be changed and would directly affect how you create your Blessed Light bar.

For me, BL needs to be either 5E, 1/4 second cast, and a much longer recharge (very efficient and all-purpose, but only sporadically) or 10E, 3/4 cast, 3 sec recharge with a universal +3 energy bonus (less efficient but constantly available).

The first version favors a Monk without E-management, the second version favors one with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Uh, just for the record, I know plenty of people who ran BL as the only condi-removal on their bar.

Back in the days when EVERY runner had Extinguish at a 1/4 second cast and the other monk had Mend Condi + CoP, or there was a Me/Mo with Martyr. Certainly not for a standard BL bar, and it's a much different story these days.

~Z

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't agree with that direction. You really do not want BL to be the only condi removal on your bar.

if it does not, then it needs to be. you can't have a bar compresion skill that doesn't compress the bar. change it to 5e, 3/4c, 3r if that's what it takes. just drop the bonus healing a bit. it's also more important for it to replace the condition removal first, before it goes for the hex removal.

Quote:

For me, BL needs to be either 5E, 1/4 second cast, and a much longer recharge (very efficient and all-purpose, but only sporadically) or 10E, 3/4 cast, 3 sec recharge with a universal +3 energy bonus (less efficient but constantly available).

The first version favors a Monk without E-management, the second version favors one with.

or you can have a skill that favours both.

blessed light needs to be very versatile for it to see any play. we don't need another specialized elite, because we already have one for every occasion. as such, it cannot favour any secondary setup, because it pretty much needs to run well on all monk secondaries that are soloable (assassin, warrior, mesmer, etc).

Relambrien · Aug 13, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You really do not want BL to be the only condi removal on your bar.

Explaining why might be a good idea.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 13, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't agree with that direction. You really do not want BL to be the only condi removal on your bar.

On the contrary. If you want Blessed Light to be bar compression, which it is clearly intended to be, it needs to be the only condition removal on your skill bar. Otherwise you wouldn't be compressing your bar would you?

If you keep saying that, please explain why.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if it does not, then it needs to be. you can't have a bar compresion skill that doesn't compress the bar.

It's not bar compression in the normal sense (one skill acting as two), though. That's the mistake I find in your thinking. The skill clearly has 3 functions...pure healing, condi removal, hex removal. It should be doing all of those things equally well and acting as a catch-all, an "all-purpose" cleaner. For example - if BL were 5E, 1/4 second cast, 12 second recharge:

Divine Intervention (needs to be improved)
RoF
Spirit Bond
Purge Conditions (needs to be improved)
Blessed Light
Guardian/Shield of Absorption
Signet of Devotion (needs to be tweaked)
Deny Hexes

Then, if it were 10E + 3, 3/4 sec cast, 3 second recharge:

Divine Spirit (could be tweaked)
RoF
Dismiss Condition
Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit
Guardian
Blessed Light
Signet of Devotion (needs to be tweaked)
GoLE

The first bar has no E-management, but everything you're doing is efficient and you have a lot of quick solutions. The second bar can pump out more raw healing and spot removal but isn't as fast.

Either change to the skill would allow it to see play in GvG again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Explaining why might be a good idea.

On the first bar in question, you need the second condi removal because you can't rely on one single condi removal every 12 seconds.

On the second bar, you're more prone to being interrupted and need a second way to remove that Deep Wound immediately.

~Z

Relambrien · Aug 13, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

On the first bar in question, you need the second condi removal because you can't rely on one single condi removal every 12 seconds.

Which wouldn't be a problem at 5/.75/5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

On the second bar, you're more prone to being interrupted and need a second way to remove that Deep Wound immediately.

[skill]Draw Conditions[/skill]

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

You can't rely on Draw Conditions in a split situation, which should be the point of running BL in the first place...on a team that splits and moves around a lot.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Aug 13, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Zuranthium, I find your logic extremely flawed. In my book, being forced to take a second condition removal and energy management would be a bad thing.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Hey, you're not FORCED to...it's your own decision. Maybe your team build is set up such that BL by itself is enough condi removal. For a standard BL bar, however, I would want two removals. That's how it used to be played anyway so I'm really not sure what the hubbub is about.

~Z

Spura · Aug 13, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Warrior
* "For Great Justice!": decreased Energy cost to 5; increased adrenaline gain to 100%.

So, since you have once again failed to fix Focused Anger, so it is still capped at 100%, this basically makes FGJ! a non-elite focused anger.

Paragon
The Paragon remains largely untouched, although we did boost a couple underused Skills.
[/QUOTE]MASSIVE FAIL!

First of all, what kind of buffs are these? Awe...nobody will care about in a month cos of Spear Swipe.

And you know what I find just insulting...update after update mesmer and elementalist get various buffs, they get these long lists of buffed skills and paragon never gets any buffs despite being totally in the crap.

And to be even more insulting, you buff skills of other professions(like warrior, who gets buffed every update like 5 skills at least), skills that do similar things that paragon skills do, you buff them till they are way better. A prime example being For Great Justice, who is basically just slightly weaker than Focused Anger due to duration, but is not an elite skill while Focused Anger is. FAIL.

Relambrien · Aug 13, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You can't rely on Draw Conditions in a split situation, which should be the point of running BL in the first place...on a team that splits and moves around a lot.

~Z

In a split situation, you wouldn't need to remove that Deep Wound immediately anyway.

Ec]-[oMaN · Aug 13, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Spura you must be smoking crack if you think paras need their current skills buffed, aren't half of the paras P/W? stick fgj on the bar if you want to gain ridiculous amounts of adren without being in melee range to build it.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

In a split situation, you wouldn't need to remove that Deep Wound immediately anyway.

Not true at all. Failing to remove the Deep Wound means less efficient healing. Or you could be Crippled, which means less kiting and more energy spent to heal the losses. Eventually one side is going to break and it's all about making key plays and/or being more efficient. Everything comes down to the numbers...get the target to 0. I would not want to risk losing a critical ability (removing conditions) because my BL got hit by D-shot.

I look at BL as something that gives you more. A standard Monk bar will often only have one condi and one hex removal, but their Elite will have a very strong effect. Example...if a Shield of Deflection monk is trying to help a crippled flag-runner and gets his condi removal D-shotted while the runner is being trained by a Warrior, it doesn't matter too much because the pure power of his Elite means that he CAN simply let the Warrior stand there and attack for a bit (or force the Warrior to switch targets and waste time running to a new one, if that's how the Warrior chooses to react). The Blessed Light monk, on the other hand, has that second removal. BL gives you MORE removal; MORE answers. In terms of pure numbers you can't achieve the amount of damage prevention that an LoD or SoD can in a large fight, but you're better equipped to handle a larger variety of problems which come your way.

At least we all agree the skill needs to be improved.

~Z