Curse

revaer · Nov 28, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

There are many different possiblities for a new assassin mechanic, I personally thought of an invisibility mechanic, though such thing will require huge balancing (nearby/area enemies detect you automatically, counter skills in other professions, etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

thought of an invisibility mechanic

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

invisibility mechanic

If the only reason they should have stealth is that they would be more "assassin-like", you fail.

-Deviance- · Nov 28, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

The assasin needs to be made capable of playing in the frontline at the flagstand in an 8v8 situation.

dumb is the easiest way to put that. sins are in NO way suppose to be any figure on the frontline play. They will get 60'd in a couple minutes rendering them useless with their squishiness ... and they really can't do anything to a full team with pre-protting, blinding, knockdowns ... etc
Sins are one of the most overpowered classes atm because of their opportunities to control the battlefield in skirmishes, and thats what they are exploited for. They just need all attack speed buffs minimized IMO

shoogi · Nov 28, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by revaer

If the only reason they should have stealth is that they would be more "assassin-like", you fail.

You totally misunderstood my post. I'm saying that Assassins need to have a special mechanic, and the current one (shadow step) is a failure. And that invisible thing was just a random idea, ffs. If you want assassins to be another melee frontline, a role that is already played by 2 professions, then I repsect your opinion but I disagree with it. My line of thinking is that there should be some difference between the gw professions, and making assas another copy of warriors/dervs, as was suggested before, is idiotic.

btw I don't see how offending posts will contribute anything to this discussion.

Skuld · Nov 28, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Deviance-

dumb is the easiest way to put that. sins are in NO way suppose to be any figure on the frontline play. They will get 60'd in a couple minutes rendering them useless with their squishiness ... and they really can't do anything to a full team with pre-protting, blinding, knockdowns ... etc
Sins are one of the most overpowered classes atm because of their opportunities to control the battlefield in skirmishes, and thats what they are exploited for. They just need all attack speed buffs minimized IMO

Dude, the point of this thread is a full overhall, who gives a shit what they're "meant to do", what they're meant to do is no good, which is why we're brainstorming.

Snow Bunny · Nov 28, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

lol wut

Don't cloud pvp mechanics with romantic notions of an assassin.

I wish they were more pressure, and needed adrenaline. Call me dumb, but I think that putting adrenaline in with assassins and reworking their whole spike mechanic could actually make them fun to play. Like a cross between a degen ranger and a warrior. Who knows

Personally, I think that attack chains should only be able to go off with 9 skills.

Except...you can only have 8 skills on your bar, except for those Koreans.

Damn those tricky Koreans!

wuzzman · Nov 28, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

sins are not suppose to be frontliner. An Steady Stance warrior can interupt a moderate amount of skills just by using Disrupting Chop on recharge. People will not want to fight someone with 80+ armor, spamming conditions, bringing 2-3 interupts, a speed boost, and oh yeah mesmer shutdown, if they think steady stances warriors are gay.

revaer · Nov 28, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

If you want assassins to be another melee frontline, a role that is already played by 2 professions, then I repsect your opinion but I disagree with it. My line of thinking is that there should be some difference between the gw professions, and making assas another copy of warriors/dervs, as was suggested before, is idiotic.

Currently assassins are one-sided and boring to play. The attack chain and shadow stepping mechanics are stupid. Also, I don't want warrior/derv copies.

mazey vorstagg · Nov 28, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Right this is going to be really weird as I'm a PvE player almost totally, but I do play Sin and I've done all the little pvp I have done on a sin.

Here's how I see it.

Sins are a bit like rangers combined with elementalists but use themselves as the arrows. A sin should have an in and out shadowstep and an attack chain. They also need utility moves like interrupts to use when they're chain is recharging.

When they see they're target they should get in there, unleash their nuke and tele out so they can stay at the back like a caster until their chain is ready again.

I feel the chain attacks are pretty restrictive, I agree with the earlier ideas in this thread. Sins chains should have shorter recharges (except the lead attacks) and the offhands and duels should have other effects when not used as part of a chain. E.g, you can spike your chain then continue to condition/interrupt/kd at the frontline until your chain recharges and then spike again. the issue is, then sins end up being at the front a lot and lose they're uniqueness.

So here's what I think: Lower the recharges of all their tele ins and outs (possibly make one which combines both into one skill). Then lower their overall damage so they can't just kill in one go, add more conditions and more mesmer like skills (like siphon strength) to make them more of a disruptive class. That way sins could act almost like a human arrow, a human interrupt. They could tele in, unload their chain and put dazed on the monk/ele or blind on the warrior then tele out and step to the other side of the battlefield to unload they're chain on the mesmer. That way they're be less of an instagib class and more of a melee ranger/mesmer with fantastic positioning as they're main advantage/selling point.

X Cytherea X · Nov 28, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

some good ideas here, how does one get Izzy to read this thread?

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 28, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

some good ideas here, how does one get Izzy to read this thread?

Where?

This thread is a bunch of people in love with one class with no objective input and others wanting them removed from the game. If you're proposing the ladder send to izzy quickly. I haven't seen any creative skill changes that make sins playable/skillful from the community or izzy.

Shuuda · Nov 28, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

some good ideas here, how does one get Izzy to read this thread?

In order to summon Izzy to read a thread you must perform this ritual.

On the night of a full moon, on the top of a muddly hill, you must sing "Pop goes the weasel." while wearing a pink dress and a sombero. You must also sing it whiles jumping up and down in a goofy fashion.

If done correctly, Izzy will appear in 6 to 8 months andd glance at this thread.

wuzzman · Nov 28, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Hasn't it been over a year since a representative from Anet visited guru forums hmm

yum · Nov 28, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

There are many different possiblities for a new assassin mechanic, I personally thought of an invisibility mechanic, though such thing will require huge balancing (nearby/area enemies detect you automatically, counter skills in other professions, etc)

Oh man, you really take what I post in the campfire seriously ?

Dominator1370 · Nov 28, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Daggers don't do any damage on auto-attacks. Since it's abundantly clear that a frontliner (not to mention a 70 AL minus a Dervish's survivability with Melandru, enchantments, whatever) isn't particularly useful, the Assassin either needs to be capable of pressure damage or resigned to a role similar to a ranger. The only use they do have is Instagib, and I hope we all agree that has to go. Moriz had a very good suggestion on how to do that which I hope is implemented.

The question, then, is once Instagib is gone, are we looking for a new frontliner with some interesting utility, or a new utility guy with a little bit of damage to throw around?

I don't think we need another Warrior. There's enough competition from the Dervish's, though I'm convinced the only reason they see play is Menaldru+Weary. We don't really need another Ranger or Mesmer either, especially one who would be at melee range. What would be interesting would be if we could get a little of both.

Given that Assassins were apparently supposed to be heavily involved in killing, I think it would be interesting if we put them in a role where they were more able to help the team as a whole achieve a kill, rather than simply doing it themselves. After all, there's 8 people on your team, and assumedly they're there for a reason.

I think the Shattering Assault build provides a pretty interesting direction for the Assassin. There are some problems with it, sure, but look what it accomplishes for the team: it ends stances, it strips enchantments, and it's not going to kill anyone solo, but it provides decent damage support, and it does all of this without having to worry about block. Throw in Assassin's Remedy, and as long as the Assassin isn't stacked with conditions, it can attack through blind. This means that the Assassin can help open a target for another teammate who IS vulnerable to things like block by removing blocking stances and enchantments, as well as stripping off prots to help force a kill through.

The skills are also fast recharge, which helps counter DPS problems. There is a problem in terms of energy, though: even with critical strikes, there is probably going to be some downtime in energy, which means some auto-attacking. In this, I think JR's suggestion of increasing base dagger damage and decreasing attack skill damage is a good one. 7-17 just doesn't cut it, as Warriors and Dervishes can bring spike potential as well as pressure potential. If Assassins can't pressure, they probably aren't going to see play.

There are certainly plenty of things an Assassin can do to open targets for attack besides strip enchantments and stances. They could bring hexes to increase damage, lower defense, whatever is needed. Some of these exist, but they would have to be extended to work with other party members as well. They could provide knockdowns, spread conditions to fuel spikes, all kinds of things.

Shmanka · Nov 28, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I didn't honestly mind the assasin, just how it exploited some guildhalls way more effectively then others. I like how sometimes that does take a factor in deciding wining teams but the advantage of mobility, which is the largest factor of gvg in my opinion decided who was victor. Assasins basically did a new line of playing, compass camping. It didnt matter what was on the assasin skill bars they are all designed to kill in matter of seconds single handedly. Would like to see the assasin have potential damage that punishes players?: Yes. Would I like more of a control aspect of assasins?: Yes. Are they still too good at what they do compared to other professions?: Again, Yes.

They are trying to find a balance, and well... at least doing something is better then nothing. For the past 6 months I've bickered about alot in this game, I am just sick of fighting and posting about it anymore.

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

LAWL to people who say assassins daggers do no damage.
See the Dagger mastery attribute? See its special affect Dual strikes?
See the critical Strike attribute? see its special effect.
Assassin's dagger damage is more of a gamble, assassin's will do decent auto attack damage on a 60 AL target if they Dual strike and crit both times.
Sin's have the best critical rate, sin's are the only ones who can dual strike (well actually...sins are the ones who can get the best chance for dual strike =P)
Thats how sin's auto attacks are meant to do damage.
Because an assassin constantly do crit damage and Dual striking would outshine a warriors Sword to any 60 Al target.
Which is easily seen on Locust Fury+ critical Eye+ Frenzy (on isle of the nameless)
If all the crits hit.

Anyways thats beside the point.
Shooji..wtf invisibility?
1. This is not ragnarok.
2. This is not ragnarok
3. This is not naruto
4. This is not naruto.
5. Unlike Ragnarok, there would be absolutely no way of countering it >.> unless through interruption
6. NO NO NO >.>

Quote:

Sins are a bit like rangers combined with elementalists but use themselves as the arrows. A sin should have an in and out shadowstep and an attack chain. They also need utility moves like interrupts to use when they're chain is recharging.

lul wut? Sins are Ranger/Eles?
Well I must've missed the memo where they became anything like an ele.
Sins
Are Warrior/Mesmer (teaspoon of ranger).

Anyways I've been thinking.
Once an assassin is targeted, his entire wow factor is blown in todays metagame...people see the sin >.> Once they can do anything to him...touch him,burn him, heal against him...something screwed up.

Anyways.

Seriously.
Sin's highly Mobile Units, who Are able to quickly assist in dual spikes, so a Warrior and Sin spike is very possible, while having full/half range utility.
Thus they are easy to deploy when something goes wrong and you need a support, assassin's being so mobile and a Warrior/Mesmer hybrid should be able to move across the field faster than a mesmer and deploy some form of utility as back up...like Shroud of Silence/Siphon Strength until the mesmer comes and drops a nice Diversion/backfire/empathy...whatever on em.

The warrior should have the stuff like IAS's that help to augment his damage and crap.
Sin's have no Attack Skill IAS naturally (should stay that way) so instead they should be drawing strength from utility.

I said it prob 2x now in the thread.
SHIT like [card]Siphon Strength[/card] =P
also the card says 15 energy ...in game its 10 energy now

Bankai · Nov 28, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Ensoriki, just shut up about Siphon Strength. The skill is bad.

This is the type of skillbars I would like to see sins run:
(general lead) (general offhand) (general dual) (Crippling dagger) (disrupting dagger) (selfheal) (mend touch/teleport) (res sig)

That bar takes at least some skill to play. The two daggers are just examples of support skills that should be seen on sin bars.

Also, trying to make sins frontliners is an aweful idea.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 28, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Ensoriki, just shut up about Siphon Strength. The skill is bad.

This is the type of skillbars I would like to see sins run:
(general lead) (general offhand) (general dual) (Crippling dagger) (disrupting dagger) (selfheal) (mend touch/teleport) (res sig)

That bar takes at least some skill to play. The two daggers are just examples of support skills that should be seen on sin bars.

Also, trying to make sins frontliners is an aweful idea.

Except one of those would be replaced with an elite (like one of the shrouds), either one of the skills while using a lead skip (GPS-twisting) or you'd have to give up the self heal or crip dagger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Thinking on what JR said, maybe Shadow stepping could become running stances that give the bonus when they end/ activiate/ you hit a foe. For example:

Return - All adjacent foe a crippled for xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for xx seconds.

Death's Charge - You move 33% faster for xx seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xxx health if there is a foe in the area.

Beguiling Haze - you move 33% faster for xx seconds, the next foe you hit is dazed for x - xx seconds. (The stance won't end when you hit them like enraged does)

They can be buffed in other ways to compensate for the loss of imba steps, like Haze being 10e or longer daze.

/end my retard idea.

I actually don't think that is a bad idea in theory, though it might be hard to implement. The main problem is just that they'd need to be faster movement than 33% IMO, which might outclass dash. I was thinking that you might be able to have something like:

Beguiling Haze - You move 50% faster for 3 seconds, and for 10 seconds the next foe you hit is dazed for XX seconds.

I'm not sure if that's entirely possible to do with the game mechanics, but the staggered stance thing would allow very fast movement in (almost as good as a shadow step in close ranges) while still making sure that the movement speeds don't become overpowered and giving a long enough window to actually get the effect.

Shuuda · Nov 28, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I actually don't think that is a bad idea in theory, though it might be hard to implement. The main problem is just that they'd need to be faster movement than 33% IMO, which might outclass dash. I was thinking that you might be able to have something like:

Beguiling Haze - You move 50% faster for 3 seconds, and for 10 seconds the next foe you hit is dazed for XX seconds.

I'm not sure if that's entirely possible to do with the game mechanics, but the staggered stance thing would allow very fast movement in (almost as good as a shadow step in close ranges) while still making sure that the movement speeds don't become overpowered and giving a long enough window to actually get the effect.

Well, I've maked possible changes for every shadow step in the game:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideas

Return - All adjacent foe a crippled for x - xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for x- xx seconds.

Death's Charge - You move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xxx health. Reduce recharge to 15 - 20

Beguiling Haze - you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, the next foe you hit is dazed for x - xx seconds. Change cost to 5, or 10 if 5 is over powered.

Shadow Prison - you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, the next foe you hit is crippled for x - xx seconds. Change cost to 5 and recharge to 15 - 20.

Dark Prison - You move 15% faster for x - xx seconds, if you hit a moving foe, they are crippled for x - x seconds. Reduce cost to 5 and recharge to 20

Death's retreat - You move 40% faster for x - x seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xx health and an extra xx - xx health for every ally in the area (maxium of xx) ( or replace the extra health gain with a condition for every ally in area max of 1 - 3)

Scorpion Wire - You move 10% faster for x - x seconds, if the next foe you hit is moving, they are knocked down. (50% chance to fail if 4 or less in deadly arts) reduce recharge to 15 - 20.

Shadow Meld - While you maintain this enchantment you move 0 - 33% faster, but you will be unable to use stances. When this enchament ends, you lose all enchaments and 1 condition for each lost. Move to Shadow arts or critical strikes.

Aura of Displacement - While you maintain this enchantment you move 0 - 33% faster, but you are unable to use stances. If you are targeting an ally when this ends, you shadow step to his position and lose all enchantments and stance (range of half radar) reduce cost to 5. Move to Shadow or Critical.
(Rusbish I know, but I'm stumpped on how to change that)

Shadow Fang - for x - x seconds you move 25% faster, the next foe to hit will suffer deep wound for x - xx seconds if you critical them. reduce recharge to 15.

Shadow Walk - For x - xx seconds you move 40% faster, but you cannot use or be the target of allied spells or enchantments. Move to shadow arts. reduce recharge to 25.

Spirit Walk - For x - xx seconds you move 33% fasters and gain x - xx health for each second moving if there are allied spirits in the area.

Vipers Defence - All adjacent Foes are poisoned for x - xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds.

Swap - If target Foe is moving faster than normal, they lose xx - xx health and you move 25% faster for x - xx seconds. Move to deadly arts. Increase recharge to 15.

Recall - If you are targeting an ally you move 40 - 50% faster, if target ally has less health than you when this stance ends, you lose 20 - 10 energy and skill are disabled for 10 - 7 seconds. Move to critical or shadow.

Heart of Shadow - For x - x seconds you move 50% faster, the next time you take damage, you gain xx - xxx health.

Note that all stance that have an effect upon hitting a foe will end when you hit them.

A few things however:

- I found it hard to find good changes for AoD and Shadow Meld.
- Scorpion Wire is basicly an assassin Bull Strike, but I think it looks a tad imba, the 50% failure is to prevent abuse by warriors (could use it along side bullstrike in theory)
- Shadow Prison now seems underpowered, but Im sure most people enjoy seeing it weaker.

In general my they need a lot of work, but imba running is closer to balance than imba stepping I guess.

Captain Robo · Nov 29, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Heart of Shadow throws your positioning completely to the wind; who cares if you get healed? If you get thrown back further into the opponent's line, you're going to die.

Originally Posted by Ideas
Return - All adjacent foe a crippled for x - xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for x- xx seconds.

Death's Charge - You move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xxx health. Reduce recharge to 15 - 20

Beguiling Haze - you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, the next foe you hit is dazed for x - xx seconds. Change cost to 5, or 10 if 5 is over powered.

Shadow Prison - you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds, the next foe you hit is crippled for x - xx seconds. Change cost to 5 and recharge to 15 - 20.

Dark Prison - You move 15% faster for x - xx seconds, if you hit a moving foe, they are crippled for x - x seconds. Reduce cost to 5 and recharge to 20

Death's retreat - You move 40% faster for x - x seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xx health and an extra xx - xx health for every ally in the area (maxium of xx) ( or replace the extra health gain with a condition for every ally in area max of 1 - 3)

Scorpion Wire - You move 10% faster for x - x seconds, if the next foe you hit is moving, they are knocked down. (50% chance to fail if 4 or less in deadly arts) reduce recharge to 15 - 20.

Shadow Meld - While you maintain this enchantment you move 0 - 33% faster, but you will be unable to use stances. When this enchament ends, you lose all enchaments and 1 condition for each lost. Move to Shadow arts or critical strikes.

Aura of Displacement - While you maintain this enchantment you move 0 - 33% faster, but you are unable to use stances. If you are targeting an ally when this ends, you shadow step to his position and lose all enchantments and stance (range of half radar) reduce cost to 5. Move to Shadow or Critical.
(Rusbish I know, but I'm stumpped on how to change that)

Shadow Fang - for x - x seconds you move 25% faster, the next foe to hit will suffer deep wound for x - xx seconds if you critical them. reduce recharge to 15.

Shadow Walk - For x - xx seconds you move 40% faster, but you cannot use or be the target of allied spells or enchantments. Move to shadow arts. reduce recharge to 25.

Spirit Walk - For x - xx seconds you move 33% fasters and gain x - xx health for each second moving if there are allied spirits in the area.

Vipers Defence - All adjacent Foes are poisoned for x - xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for x - xx seconds.

Swap - If target Foe is moving faster than normal, they lose xx - xx health and you move 25% faster for x - xx seconds. Move to deadly arts. Increase recharge to 15.

Recall - If you are targeting an ally you move 40 - 50% faster, if target ally has less health than you when this stance ends, you lose 20 - 10 energy and skill are disabled for 10 - 7 seconds. Move to critical or shadow.

Heart of Shadow - For x - x seconds you move 50% faster, the next time you take damage, you gain xx - xxx health.

Note that all stance that have an effect upon hitting a foe will end when you hit them.

I'm sorry, these are all extremely bad suggestions. I don't think Shadow Stepping is inherently broken as long as the benchmark skill is Aura of Displacement. The only real problem Shadow Step skills are Recall, Augury of Death (and even then, its the Deep Wound part of the skill which is imbalanced), and Shadow Prison, but there's nothing wrong or imbalanced about Death's Charge, Return, or Shadow Walk. Changing every skill to a running skill is not at all creative, and creates MASSIVE skill redundancy.

As long as the best Shadow Steps in the game are Aura of Displacement, Shadow Walk, and Death's Charge there is no problem with the Shadow Step mechanic.

AoD can get stripped easily, Shadow Walk has obvious limitations, and Death's Charge is not a round trip ticket. They're all balanced skills in these respects,