Curse

jaeharys targaryen · Dec 05, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

<story>
Hmm, lets say i'm a new a paragon who wants to gvg. I have some experience in gvg, but none with a paragon. So i'm looking for spear attacks to take along, and i've heard spear of lightning is pretty good. so i stick it on. i also heard GFTE is good, so i take that.

after setting up a nice bar, i notice i have an empty elite slot, and an optional.

cruel spear:

Quote:

If this attack hits, you deal +1...25 damage. If it hits a non-moving target, you inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

Hmm, pretty nice. But it's elite.

vicious attack:

Quote:

If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage. If you land a critical hit with this attack, target foe suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...13 seconds.

holy shit!
I'm doing a little less damage, and a negliblely less deep wound. BUT IT'S NON ELITE. Now i can use goodies like this, or (omg l337sauce) this.
</story>
i'm gonna repeat this: IT'S NOT ELITE.
It has a condition which is arguably easier to meet*, and also by its nature is both:

Beneficial to your damage(which evens it out to cruel spear)
And the condition can be met from a skill that is probably going to be on your bar.

WHY DO PEOPLE USE CRUEL SPEAR?
Vicious appears, in every way, to be better.
Answers please.

*Yes, you can use [skill]shock[/skill] to meet cruel's condition, but, your team might not want(i.e. <s>noobs</s> people running trees) to have shock.

Div · Dec 05, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Cruel spear does big damage on spikes. Usually your target will be KD'ed in some form or method during these spikes. It's also good when you hit someone casting a spell, since they also won't be moving, and that combined with vicious/spear of lightning can be a deadly spike of its own. The DW from vicious is not nearly as reliable (even with GftE) as cruel spear. Plus cruel spear is an adren skill, and vicious is an energy skill. Hard to compare the two directly, as they synergize in different bars.

Tab · Dec 05, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

What Divine said. Cruel Spear is also bugged to give DW even if it misses.

jaeharys targaryen · Dec 05, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I intentionally ignored the bug, as i hate having to ackknowledge a skill just because of an error.

Holy made some good points, but what i wanna know is:
Why are paragons spiking? Even when you have a dual paragon midline, the dw should be coming from somewhere else.
And even if it's less reliable, wouldn't you still like to have an open elite slot?

Tab · Dec 05, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

The elites are generally not worth taking apart from Cruel Spear. Expel was decent during hex meta, Defensive Anthem is easy to shutdown now.
With a dual para midline, you need to spike.
Ideally, you should have more than one copy of DW on a spike. By your logic, shouldn't you only run one warrior with DW?
An unblockable DW that has good +damage if it hits is an invaluable spike assist.

kvndoom · Dec 05, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

With GFTE, the condition for vicious is more easily met, BUT, you're forcing one skill to support another. Realistically the condition for Cruel would be easily met on a spike. I've been a fan of Merciless Spear myself for some time. Of course its downside is no extra damage (kinda like the Cleave + Dismember vs. Eviscerate thing), and I think it's bugged too, because I've even extended how the health bars are displayed to make sure I'm waiting until <50%, but still seems to not register properly. Honestly though since Cruel is an Elite and 10 adrenaline, it should be an unconditional deep wound.

Byron · Dec 05, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Reliable deep wound and big damage is a definite pressure advantage over a sometimes-deep wound and moderate damage.

A cruel spear paragon is a big stress on backlines. Typically, in my experience, monks will yell to focus blinds/hexes on the paragon, because they are hardest to prot against. Also, cruel spear is scary.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 05, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Take both. Deep wound is ftw.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 06, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

You take Cruel Spear and Vicious both so that you can have two Deep Wounds on your bar.

That's pretty much it. There isn't a lot of good competition for Paragon elites.

jaeharys targaryen · Dec 06, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

It's sad. Are paragons the only class where the elite is run on the basis on relative suckiness?

Cebe · Dec 06, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Honestly though since Cruel is an Elite and 10 adrenaline, it should be an unconditional deep wound.

Correction: 7 adrenaline. Stunning Strike is 10.

Div · Dec 06, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

It's sad. Are paragons the only class where the elite is run on the basis on relative suckiness?

You can also argue the same for a mesmer, or a monk. HEV, though great against water snares and hex teams, is completely useless against any normal team where the only hex tossed around is diversion. Esurge is not very great either. For monk, there was a period (and to an extent, even now) where your prot elite isn't very good. The only thing stopping people from running 2 WoH is the lack of variation and utility.

Cirian · Dec 06, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I'm with the double deep wound camp. Take both. You know it's right!

Prot elites never really sucked though did they? They just changed depending on the meta I thought

RC and SoD are good, ZB might not be what you want on a prot guy but at least it won't suck. Even Divert Hexes had its day to shine during the hex meta (providing Scourge Healing wasn't on the bottom of the big hex stack, damn that hurt).

I think rits and mesmers run their elites on relative suckiness, so it's not just paras. The former two could probably skip an elite for a solid regular skill and you'd hardly notice the difference!