Curse

elektra_lucia · Dec 12, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Hi,

After reading several posts I notice that people find it increasingly hard to start off the game in PVP. Of course I was always aware of this but then I found that people giving advice simply gave bad advice which should not be the case. New players simply do not have enough information available at the time to form valid opinions. I would also like to discuss GVG because it kind of ties in with my argument and it saves me making another thread. I hope that I do not appear to be too arrogant in this thread because I am trying to help and quite like helping people (sub-conscience thing I should think) despite many claims of me being 'snobbish'.

When I started HA, it was mostly all IWAY'ers spamming everywhere. People at that time had the argument 'it is impossible to form a balance'. People today have a similar attitude. I would say that the skill in HA has dropped, you only have to look at who holds halls now. Firstly you have to remove this attitude. It's a clear sign of a lack of drive.

If you look at many professionals in gaming or sports they have one thing in common. It isn't always intelligence. It isn't always that they are just naturally talented but they have drive. They really have a push in them to do well. I would say that coming from a 1v1 game where I had to push myself for hours or I would simply lose made GW a breeze (for a while). You can look at things as impossible and therefore become like every other drone of which one day you will probably insult for playing lame builds. Making you nothing more than a hypocrite from the future. If of course, you think I am wrong wait six months and post here telling me you never played lame builds. The reason it is imperative for you to play good builds is not only does it help you as a player it does actually help you gain fame.

For a maximum fame you either need to play for a few hours and make more fame than you will in a whole day OR play steadily. This means you play very regularly and perhaps don't make loads on a run but it won't be a problem.

The methods of playing are broken down like this:

•1 Con your way into groups. Tell people you're higher rank than you are.
•2 Play PVE and find out your friend is actually r10 and play in his groups.
•3 Play lame builds. Can con your way into these or do it honestly.
•4 Join a balanced group.
•5 Make a balanced group.

•1. When you con your way into a group you will be with people who know each other. Rank nine players have generally (if they HA regularly) been noticed. It is fair to assume that when I take a break from the game I do not know many of the r9 players; however, let's keep this argument simple and pretend every r9 player knows each other. If they win halls they are more noticed. Do to the very nature of how you joined the group it asks questions. Why did they need someone? By rank9 they will have a friend list. It is very possible that they are pugging a lot simply because they have angered everyone around them. This could indeed be wrong and you are just lucky one day and get a high rank group. The bomb explodes when you play absolutely crap. By rank9 you should be fairly decent at HA, of course you aren't actually r9 but the people in your group don't know that.

The outcome: they see you as a high rank player that is terrible, and because they think you've played for a while, they will think you're terrible in six months too. So you may get 100 fame in one day, where you're used to getting 1 fame in one day. In the long run you have prohibited yourself from future groups. You have limited your average fame over the course of six months by a lot. In addition to this, you may of made some enemies that aren't great people but they are better than the pugs of your rank. You could be ganked if they are to notice you. You are less likely to be ganked if you play in low rank groups.

•2.

You can play with a PVE friend who you discover is high rank. The problem, you could end up bugging the crap out of him when you want to HA. You will annoy him especially when you are near to your next emote. The people in the group you may be-friend, but lying in the back of your mind is the fact you want fame. So this is no way to form a friendship with any of them. Of course this is the internet but I belong to the view that you should treat people how you expect them to treat you and I also have the view that the internet is purely a means of communication it isn't an excuse for you to turn into a complete psychopath. Consider inviting the rank10 (or whatever) friend to YOUR group and not asking the rank10 to invite you to HIS group.

•3

By playing things like spike or IWAY, you do not gain much knowledge about the game. You will not learn positioning very well. You will make enemies. I got all my fame from balance, that goes right from rank0 upwards; however, I did SWAY for two weeks (just recently) and the amount of enemies I made was more friends I had made than in thirty months. If you play balance you can learn many professions. This will help for GVG.

•4. You may gain less fame in a month than if you were to play lame builds. Balance is harder at a lower rank but it is easier to gain fame at a higher rank and higher skill. Providing you have high skilled friends. If you have friends of which you go from rank0 to 9 with, they will probably be decent players by the time they get to rank9.

•5. Dependant on what you like to play making builds might be the answer. You will look at the skills more, probably have to think more (to begin with), learn to call. You can make a group with pretty much anything. A monk can do it but you will find it easier with lower ranks to make them as a warrior or such.

Try to balance your fame for each profession. Sure you will want to dedicate yourself in one profession eventually but you need to have a certain amount of knowledge with each. It helps for knowing what shield to use at the start of the round, it helps to know how to combat something.

Consider HA a place of which you get paid. Do not waste your time considering something a nerd. so often the low calibre players will say 'nerd' yet they're worse looking than me. I remember a player called Katina once saying 'I don't worry about peoples rage I just think at the end of it all, I am better looking than them'. This is as far as your mind should stretch on the subject. It should not be flaming in local chat, calling people nerds. So if looking at skills or playing a balance makes you a nerd so be it. I suggest that you go to the priest of balthazar (if you don't have all skills unlocked) and take a look at them. All of them. I read/write fast so doing this is no problem for me but it might take ten minutes of your time.

Arguments like:

-More people played HA in your time?
-Can't get rank3 without playing heroway or lameway.
-People rank discriminate.
-Can't join a group.

Are all invalid worthless things to think about. You will find that there are people who get angry from losing and people who remain calm. Until you are good you do not want to waste your time losing your temper with people. Focus your effort into being mad at yourself.

The things of which are hard for a beginner will be:

•Interrupts.
•Weapon swapping.
•Cancelling skills.
•Kiting.
•Casting/fake casting.
•Players awareness.
•E-Denial.

If you think (look at Zaishen) your build does a lot of damage. Keep this in mind. If you are a mesmer and your job is to interrupt a monk, if your team is not doing much damage you will know he is casting less often (obviously). Monks tend to cast in orders and certain players will develop their own order of how they play.

If you study at the red bars, everything is high on the red team ( I had to blank out names sorry) and some monks will think everything is ok. I picked a gvg match because it was just ten times easier to demonstrate what I'm going to show.

You can look in battle and you will see a dervish (1) head towards (2). The monks on team were just trying something that round for fun but anyway, good enough example. You can clearly protect the player miles before anything comes into contact with it.

When you have done this it will be much like driving. When you drive extremely fast in a straight line your thought should be onto what is coming next (I think, not a racing car driver). A good melee player won't continue to hit at a target with SoD for example. As the enemy, you can switch target. They can also strip it, so you might want to cover it with RoF (if you know the time of which it will be stripped) or something else that won't be removed if player hits it. If you pre-prot way too early, a good warrior (or whatever melee) will avoid the target altogether. If you pre-prot quite late, they may end up using a skill and missing (which is more beneficial).

You should then begin to look around at your other players. This can be applied if you are the opposing team in this screen-shot too. You will want to look for an un-protted target. You can use the radar, to see things too. This is very helpful with any profession.

When playing mesmer, if you use e-surge/e-burn you should look at what weapon the enemy has. You do not want to drain the enemies energy to 0, and then use more e-denial. If you catch them in a normal or high set it does more harm to them (obviously).

The problem with watching the battlefield (as a monk) in HA is if you are looking around it is hard for you to then look at the red bars too. What I try to do is not stay 100% focused on anything. spikes will say come every 15 seconds so you know after a spike is the time that you should be concentrating a lot (before a spike too). Don't think of this as your time to cool down.

For a good mesmer you should learn to know the back lines energy. If you cast diversion on one monk, do not wait to see if it got diverted. It may be satisfying to do so but you should then switch target and concentrate on the other (he may hex remove).

If you learn to play every profession/position it will help for things like monking. There will be times you will over prot where your team will be extremely offensive. If you can judge your enemy well and see the outcome of the match (and what energy you will be left with) you will then know how much energy to burn.

HA consists of many 'frenzy wh*res'. Complain to them, even if you're a necro. If you see it happen, say you're costing the monks too much energy. Before you complain, make sure you know that you are correct. If they have frenzy permanently up but nothing ever attacks them then there is nothing up with that. Bit of an exageration but I hope you get the point.

Players will generally cast at the closest point of which they stop kiting. This helps for interrupting, again, use your radar. I will explain about setup later (helps for interrupting).

Weapon swapping - swap to the attribute which best suits your need.

Cancelling skills is important, due to diversion and other such skills. Or for a spike, get into the habit of this. With glyph of lesser energy you can cancel skills as much as you like (in the time frame given).

Kiting, when you kite, try go outwards not inwards (ends up in a ball up).

E-denial might come quite regularly, as explained in an IWAY thread. Imagine the warriors adrenaline or the mesmers recharge. Don't get caught in normal or high set.

If you look at a screenshot, you will see how I have the skill display extremely big (it helps for me).

Veil is above team so it is easy to click off.

Skills are like this:

SEDF for movement.

aqwrtgbv For skills 12345678.

R is always a fast skill (infuse, spiritbond, interupt, etc). T is party effected skill. V is maintained skill (enchant, stance, etc). G Is cancel stance or hex remove.

Now for weapon swapping I use: Ctrl, Shift, Z, Mouse button. Mouse button I hit whenever in a panic, that goes to lowest energy set. Res sig will res you with 25% energy or whatever, by dying in a low set (if you don't already know) gives you more energy because you can then swap to normal when you get up.

I have shift for my high set and not Z. You would think Z, but because I like to fast switch quickly, I can press mouse button and shift, cast, mouse button. Is very easy to do. I have another mouse button I use for cancel cast. Sadly I think there's a delay and I find it extremely hard to cancel rof sometime. Ctrl I use for a staff. Z is for 40/40's.

Shields are all in one bag, easier to swap around.

Personally I find I can react with any skill the same. E.G. You could put spirit bond as skill 8 and I'd spirit bond just the same. This should be the case, just because you may think some skill is more important than another you should be able to use them tolerably.

2 Is to change targets.
Tab is call target.
345 Is to show things.

I have 345 as one big button in effect. I recently started GVG and I find it easier for targeting NPC.

I would say that it makes sense to at least get to like rank6 before you GVG. I have met GVG'ers who went to HA. I found they positioned themselves badly. They hung back too much and stood under a bridge in UW (that kind of thing).

Study your skillbar before you use it and think of situations. If you have a ward of melee, do you really want to put it half way in a wall? You might not, but I know many who would love to do that (and they have). Not very nice to kite in I must say.

The screenshots:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/927/111wu6.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1650/gw003gh8.jpg

One screen shot was captured from observe and I think the image was taken after he dervish had hit the monk but whatever.

HA = Action - Reaction.

Think of everything you do and what action it will give. Whether it be spirit bonding someone (and warrior changing target) or whether it be flaming in local and not being able to get groups.

Also, action is the enemy of thought. Just enabling yourself to play with a few people but not playing regularly will be worse than playing regularly but not doing so well (if average fame per day is different). Do not play for fame either play to be good and have fun.

Being desperate for fame just leads to getting frustrated. Rage quitting groups etc. Do not stop trying either, you need to think a lot and not just switch off. Unless you are just gifted or something (most people aren't).

dirtydutch · Dec 13, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Cant belief you made such a long post. I would change the interface aswell in a way you like to play it. The basic interface isnt gonna cut it if you wanna play pvp. I play monk allot so i got my skill bar monitor close to my health party monitor. Same as for the the effect monitor (you know when your getting hexed or enchantements) its above my health monitor. This way i got a better view off the game and know when i got diverted etc etc.

Basicly if you play more you wil noticed you will get beter and learn from your mistakes. Dont be affraid to ask qeustions to ppl who you trusht. I always ask qeustions what other ppl do if they were in my position.

Div · Dec 13, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydutch

The basic interface isnt gonna cut it if you wanna play pvp.

I disagree. While it's certainly not optimal and could use a few tweaks here and there to help, it's whatever the person's most comfortable with that makes a big difference. I know a lot of players who don't use interfaces that are radically different from the default.

Other points make sense though.

elektra_lucia · Dec 13, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

If you look at when an enchantment/hex is very first on you it starts very big. Like this: http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5808/gw001ek3.jpg
. In my opinion it is not hard to recognise diversion. When you say 'can see when you got diverted'. Do you mean when you have diversion on you or when you have actually used a skill and got diverted? For me, I find it more than obvious when I have been diverted.

I don't like skill bar as vertical or such, it uses up too much of the screen and as I don't ever click any skill I personally find I have no reason to have it any bigger than it already is.

For diversion itself. I'm relatively new to GVG. I usually never get diverted in HA. If I do it's because I want too e.g. on the rare occasions I will HAVE to cast spirit bond, and so I will rof first and then spirit bond. This usually never happens (and don't think I promote diverting your skills). As I have got used to with how HA players play, I don't find it hard to pre veil.

I found that in early GVG's I was getting diverted way too much. I got diversion three times in a whole game with RC. That's not really acceptable at all (I felt like punching myself in the head especially as I had tried to cancel two of them). Things were kind of new and when I am concentrating on something (because it is new) I find it then harder to multi task. Multi tasking becomes easier when you are more relaxed.

The next GVG I didn't get diverted at all. Now I will probably get diverted when I face top 30 mesmers or something. The point is though, I am not going to play such that I see it on my screen and then I will always cancel skill. I will play that I know when a diversion/shame is coming - switch to low set and cast rof if shamed and I know a spike will be coming or pre veil, remove it (for diversion/shame). I am not going to risk having rof diverted to use spirit bond like I would in HA.

The hex monitor in my opinion should be a last resort. Something to show you when you haven't observed the game correctly. I have got most of my fame monking and I really don't find it a problem.

A mesmer casting diversion begins to be very obvious. Cast time/animation/time at which it comes (there'll be a pattern). Also if you get a hex come up just before you cast a spell then most of the time it's going to be something awful. So you should then stop focusing on the red bar (pay a bit of attention to it) quickly focus on hex upkeep, cancel if you have to, then stop focusing on upkeep.

The argument of display and set-up is much like FPS games (mouse sensitivity and key binds). I think (maybe I'm being stubborn? :P) that it is personal to a point.

The key binds should be comfortable and easy to access. There is absolutely no logic to using 1-8 on numbers for skills. Your hands have to stretch too far. Sure you can get good doing it but it just doesn't seem like a logical thing to do. Maybe it doesn't seem logical to have the hex display where it is, but I find it perfectly big enough to see. I will test other ways though. I have never moved it so I am willing to accept I am wrong on that.

Quote:

Cant belief you made such a long post.

I use a lot of words to explain very little I think. =P.

dirtydutch · Dec 13, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydutch

The basic interface isnt gonna cut it if you wanna play pvp. I play monk allot so i got my skill bar monitor close to my health party monitor. Same as for the the effect monitor (you know when your getting hexed or enchantements) its above my health monitor. This way i got a better view off the game and know when i got diverted etc etc.

The reason why i said this is because off my expierence with the interface. For example the effect monitor on the standard interface is way above to the left. Your health bar is to the right

. I can remember times i just played with the standard interface and i changed it. I played much beter since then. Now i wouldnt change my interface for anything its much beter now.

About the diversion part it whas just a example. Didnt know you made another long post about it (geez

).

elektra_lucia · Dec 13, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Didnt know you made another long post about it (geez ).

Is this a complaint or what? Of course you didn't know until you saw it. That's interesting? So you just felt like sharing your ignorance or were you complaining I write too much? It doesn't take me long to write, I don't know why you keep commenting that I write too much. I am not forcing you to read all what I write, you could skim through or something.

I'll try the suggestion anyway.

dirtydutch · Dec 13, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Is this a complaint or what? Of course you didn't know until you saw it. That's interesting? So you just felt like sharing your ignorance or were you complaining I write too much? It doesn't take me long to write, I don't know why you keep commenting that I write too much. I am not forcing you to read all what I write, you could skim through or something.

I'll try the suggestion anyway.

I know but it just makes me sleepy

. Its because i understand you completely without the explaination. Just ignore it

.

xx hells paladin xx · Dec 13, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

But ppl like me need the explanation=D
<----------------brick

dirtydutch · Dec 13, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by xx hells paladin xx

But ppl like me need the explanation=D
<----------------brick

I know i know im gonna shut up now

.

BlackOut777 · Dec 13, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

LONG Post but worth the read!

Very well put on how things are in the HA world!

Vel · Dec 13, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Very nice post indeed. I think..err no, I know you tend to see a lot more of battlefield, after r6 and definitely after r7. [ If you don't, solitaire is THE game for you.] So, you are very right abt hitting r6 and then catching GvG train.

Your post caters to the people who would like to play the game to get good at it and not just to get some away time from r/l. I really liked your explanations for using different keys for different stuff. I know, that's one thing you need to get fixed and used to upfront regardless of PvP or PvE. Its more fun if you can get used to that and can move around freely.

Again kudos to you and for you having some quality free time.

TaCktiX · Dec 13, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I've modified my interface a little bit to accommodate my monking, but I have not moved where the skill keys are. Upkeep enchantments like Channeling, or emanagement I always have on the 8 or 7 slot. Condition removal (if not RC) and hex removal is in slots 6 and 7. Infuse is always slot 2 (my ring finger is faster than my pinky), though Spirit Bond switches between 3 and 4. So I set up my skillbar in such a way that "reaching" for those skills isn't the end of the world because I don't have to do it in a speed situation (oh crap, I didn't put up Channeling in time for the spike!).

The effects monitor, I've moved to the bottom right of my screen, so all important things for a monk are in a backwards L. As for Diversion, I typically play with the sounds on, and I've memorized the sound of Diversion being cast (I've called out over vent when somebody ELSE got it). Works much better than worrying about the flow of the mesmer, though memorizing the 12 (MoR 8) second recharge helps.

elektra_lucia · Dec 13, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

If you move your finger from whatever it might be you have to strafe, then to 8 for channelling. If you get spiked, you then have to move your hand quite a distance. It is not that you need to cast channelling quickly. You will also not be able to kite so well (excluding using mouse walk).

Also if you then change to a warrior where you want to be able to use cancel stance quickly, it might be a problem.

Quote:

Works much better than worrying about the flow of the mesmer

Expecting something helps, because of spike. Sound is similar to sight. Pre veiling perfectly based on sound will not be good enough in the situation of a spike or a knock-down.

Fried Eyed The High · Dec 15, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Very Informative Elektra. Ty for taking the time to post the Information & explain in such detail. It was very helpful.

6am3 Fana71c · Dec 15, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Deserves a sticky.

elektra_lucia · Dec 19, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

dutch - You're right I think (had it changed since you posted about it) with the display thing. I'm pretty sure I see things quicker now. Found it particularly helpful with playing warrior xD. Thanks.

Lord Mendes · Dec 20, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Just for th record, I am not Dutch (the person).
Please don't ninja this Nurse.
Thanks.

Yours truly,
Mendes

zwei2stein · Dec 20, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I shall meditate over this.

/i just wonder why someone didn't white whole book "GW's PVPs for Dummies" yet, there is enough material out there it seems, and it quite interesting to read./

Edwards · Dec 21, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I shall meditate over this.

/i just wonder why someone didn't white whole book "GW's PVPs for Dummies" yet, there is enough material out there it seems, and it quite interesting to read./

I agree with you there. Sometimes it seems like there's an infinite amount of knowledge separating new players from higher ranked ones. I recently had the chance to play in a group with an r9 player who took the time to lead a lower ranked group, and I must say that I learned more in three runs with that team than I do most days at school.