Curse

Captain Robo · Jan 13, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

The problem with single target prots (as a form of active defense) is that they can only be used reliably to stop spikes. When a good warrior sees a prot fall on their target, they immediately switch to a new target.

Your prot therefore does nothing, you wasted energy, and only slowed down the warrior a little bit. Furthermore, you now have a teammate who will soon be needing some heals.

Good field awareness could improve your play with prot skills, but as a form of active defense, single target prots are incredibly unreliable in the face of a competent enemy frontline. However, by no means are such skills bad. In fact, many of these skills are necessary, despite their shortcomings.

Monk bars have evolved, but warrior play has also improved considerably. Target switching is the single greatest weapon a warrior has against single-target protection prayer skills.

As for party healing since the BL/Boonprot days, I wouldn't say it's gotten any worse. All that happened was that Nightfall spoiled us with LoD, which completely outshone everything else in the party healing department. However, the metagame has since changed, and now that LoD is gone, it's a brand new environment, and I don't think the old Heal Party builds are welcome in this metagame. Times have changed, and characters that would have formerly carried Heal Party are now needed for other roles.

lacasner · Jan 13, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

How about changing some of the offhand sin attacks so that not like 75% of them have to have the "following lead attack" clause. This weakens a lot of sin build variety.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 14, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The problem with single target prots (as a form of active defense) is that they can only be used reliably to stop spikes. When a good warrior sees a prot fall on their target, they immediately switch to a new target.

Your prot therefore does nothing, you wasted energy, and only slowed down the warrior a little bit. Furthermore, you now have a teammate who will soon be needing some heals.

Good field awareness could improve your play with prot skills, but as a form of active defense, single target prots are incredibly unreliable in the face of a competent enemy frontline. However, by no means are such skills bad. In fact, many of these skills are necessary, despite their shortcomings.

Exactly, that's actually part of my point. It used to be that you had to have the party healing in order to keep up with this kind of target switching, mopping up all the random damage that comes in during a game while you use single target prots to mitigate some but mainly in order to protect against concentrations like converges and unloads. Now the balance has shifted the other way, where single target prots are still used, but the main focus is having party-wide prots mitigating random damage while single-target heals take care of concentrations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Monk bars have evolved, but warrior play has also improved considerably. Target switching is the single greatest weapon a warrior has against single-target protection prayer skills.

As for party healing since the BL/Boonprot days, I wouldn't say it's gotten any worse. All that happened was that Nightfall spoiled us with LoD, which completely outshone everything else in the party healing department. However, the metagame has since changed, and now that LoD is gone, it's a brand new environment, and I don't think the old Heal Party builds are welcome in this metagame. Times have changed, and characters that would have formerly carried Heal Party are now needed for other roles.

I don't think that warrior play has really improved at all, besides having much more offense 8v8-oriented warrior builds (which will tie into the increased offense later). What has happened is that a variety of factors have come together to force reliable party healing out of the game, even if it hasn't gotten weaker. You can't put a reliable source of party healing on your runner anymore, as splits are simply too powerful and there's especially no good defense against a ranger that still allows heal party. Eprod has also disappeared at the stand as ele elites gained power, killing heal party there. And then offensive options in general have gained a lot of power, tipping the balance to where party heals alone couldn't sustain a team alone and you have to start bringing in all the passive defense in order to stay alive.

Double Pact · Jan 14, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I don't think that warrior play has really improved at all, besides having much more offense 8v8-oriented warrior builds (which will tie into the increased offense later). What has happened is that a variety of factors have come together to force reliable party healing out of the game, even if it hasn't gotten weaker. You can't put a reliable source of party healing on your runner anymore, as splits are simply too powerful and there's especially no good defense against a ranger that still allows heal party. Eprod has also disappeared at the stand as ele elites gained power, killing heal party there. And then offensive options in general have gained a lot of power, tipping the balance to where party heals alone couldn't sustain a team alone and you have to start bringing in all the passive defense in order to stay alive.

- A Shock Eviscerate still looks quite the same as it used to in Proph times, minor changes not included. Equipped with Sprint+Healsig (which is used quite often), the warrior's split ability is very high...

- A WoH Water Elementalist is a way to get Party Healing on a runner, though this runner wasn't played too often recently (see below)

- It used to be Eprod, then LoD and now SoR (which isn't any better than LoD). SoR outclasses any other party healing because it's nearly impossible to shut down and thus is an absolute must for most teams in order to handle pressure (btw the SoR adds some very powerful passive defense, too)

Sinful Doom · Jan 14, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

23 pages of debated skill balance and less then two weeks until the next MAT. I'm not so certain we will see any balance before the next monthly? Perhapse Anet feels we are already in a state of perfection.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 14, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

- A Shock Eviscerate still looks quite the same as it used to in Proph times, minor changes not included. Equipped with Sprint+Healsig (which is used quite often), the warrior's split ability is very high...

Except a huge move towards rush over sprint and dchop over heal sig makes the standard eviscerate warrior a bigger threat at the stand. Also, warriors can't really split solo anymore, as they're just going to get snared by a cripshot and killed before they can really accomplish anything. Also, not just the warrior, but the support it has from the midline along with new equipment like 40% blind reduction have really made the days of having a bflash + 2 monks + HP for your defense seem really outdated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

- It used to be Eprod, then LoD and now SoR (which isn't any better than LoD). SoR outclasses any other party healing because it's nearly impossible to shut down and thus is an absolute must for most teams in order to handle pressure (btw the SoR adds some very powerful passive defense, too)

What I'm trying to say is that party healing options simply haven't kept up with the offensive side of things, and that not only have they not kept up, but they've been losing options. When you can't rely on party healing anymore to take care of widespread pressure, you have to turn to party protection, which is a lot less interesting than single-target protection. Party healing may still be used (as with the SoR template), but it isn't nearly as strong as it needs to be if it wants to try and deal with modern offenses without the constant aegis + ward + other passive prot.

Vanquisher · Jan 14, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Warrior's always had to be wary of Crip Shots. That's why they cancelled Heal Sigs, dodged the attacks, and had the sense to leave early. One big thing that Heal Party added was the ability to help those solo splitting Warriors. Now there's a problem because Natural Stride and Mending Touch have been added to the Rangers, as well as blind reduction forcing more from Flaggers in terms of healing ability.

But realistically speaking, there is almost the same amount of block in the game now, maybe slightly less, than there was before.

Double Pact · Jan 14, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Except a huge move towards rush over sprint and dchop over heal sig makes the standard eviscerate warrior a bigger threat at the stand. Also, warriors can't really split solo anymore, as they're just going to get snared by a cripshot and killed before they can really accomplish anything. Also, not just the warrior, but the support it has from the midline along with new equipment like 40% blind reduction have really made the days of having a bflash + 2 monks + HP for your defense seem really outdated.

What I'm trying to say is that party healing options simply haven't kept up with the offensive side of things, and that not only have they not kept up, but they've been losing options. When you can't rely on party healing anymore to take care of widespread pressure, you have to turn to party protection, which is a lot less interesting than single-target protection. Party healing may still be used (as with the SoR template), but it isn't nearly as strong as it needs to be if it wants to try and deal with modern offenses without the constant aegis + ward + other passive prot.

@ Warriors: Everything around the warrior changed, not the Warrior himself (as we're talking about the warrior and his split ability: i'd vote for a 1sec healsig, which would easily find it's way back onto the warrior bar)

@ party heal/prot: So what the game needs is a massive nerf of any red bars go down skills and at the same time of Aegis, Watch Yourself, Shields Up, DA, Ward, etc. --> this isn't new, but anet seems to ignore it constantly

ensoriki · Jan 14, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

How about changing some of the offhand sin attacks so that not like 75% of them have to have the "following lead attack" clause. This weakens a lot of sin build variety.

wut?

That just means more O-D-O-D and less reason for L-O-D.
More lead skippers are not needed.
We already have
Golden Phoenix Strike
Palm Strike
Black Spider strike
and (iffy) Moebius strike.

Thats quite enough.

Assassin variety suffers from not a lot of usable skills.
In the deadly arts line, how many of those skills does a dagger assassin use.
Same with Shadow arts
look in all 4 lines pick out the skills that are actually good
You find yourself with a handful of skills.

lack of lead-skippers isn't whats hurting assassin variety IMO.

Vanquisher · Jan 14, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Lead Attacks are bad and competitive Assassin builds will almost always look for a way of skipping the lead to get to the better Off Hands and Duals.

ensoriki · Jan 14, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

That does not mean there should be more lead skippers.

A competitive assassin will of course do that until A-net decides to do something to lead attacks.

Asking for more lead-skippers is just forsaking the idea of balance and instead supporting a formula that has caused issues more than once.

Last I checked Assassin many dagger balance issues happened
because 2 off-hands and 2 duals were on a bar.
Not because 3 attack skills L-O-D were on a bar

Riotgear · Jan 14, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

As long as duals have 90% of the utility, getting to them ASAP will be the objective.

L-O-D is not viable right now because L-O-D chains quite simply suck and O-D-O-D chains are significantly easier to use. Both need to be addressed, but Assassins are not going to be viable at the stand as long as they're vulnerable to linebacking and dependent on flimsy attack chains, especially in a meta that saturates the shit out of block.

For splits, the meta has adapted to the point that Assassins can be dealt with on a fairly consistent basis, and the results have not been positive. It's more of a chilling effect, restricting possibilies based on the threat so people don't get Build Wars'ed, similar to what HEV is doing with anti-melee hexing, without actually making it any more viable of an option.

Want improvement? Shorter chains, more utility, less 1234567LOLURDED.

Symbol · Jan 15, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Want improvement? Shorter chains, more utility, less 1234567LOLURDED.

Make LMS and Dstab gud. THAT'S ALL I WANT A.NET.

Well, actually I'm lying, but it's a start.

Here's what I actually expect will happen in the next update:

Jagged Strike:

Raised bleeding duration to 5...25 seconds.

Unsuspecting Strike:

Reduced recharge to 1 sec.

ensoriki · Jan 15, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

meh assassins have problems
Leads are inferior
Shadow arts is bad
Deadly arts is bad

Deadly arts has that 1 combo though >.>
Meh you fix this L-O-D thing and your left with 2 bad attributes.
Wonderful...

also wtb buffs to prophecies skills

Traxx · Jan 15, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I wouldn't mind to see a buff to Decapitate, because right now theres no point to bring it instead of Eviscerate.

Maybe increase adrenaline to 10, And you don't all energy. So it stays at the end of a spike, but isnt completely stupid to use.

Penetrating Chop and Blow reduced to 10% AP, but give it a cast time?(not sure on this, maybe give cracked armor, with drawbacks)

Deflect Arrows to "this skill ends when you hit with an attack skill"( because i have never seen this skill anywhere)

Riotgear · Jan 15, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traxx

I wouldn't mind to see a buff to Decapitate, because right now theres no point to bring it instead of Eviscerate.

Eviscerate in its current form essentially gives you exactly what you want in a spike attack skill without any real drawbacks. It's one of those skills that is probably never going to be bumped off by any alternative that's actually balanced.

Quote:

Deflect Arrows to "this skill ends when you hit with an attack skill"( because i have never seen this skill anywhere)

Deflect Arrows is one of those skills like Storm Chaser where you have to ask when you'll be able to use the skill's effect in a situation you give a shit about it. In PvP, the number of uses of a Tactics stance that blocks arrows and doesn't block melee are practically nothing.

6am3 Fana71c · Jan 15, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Decapitate is totally not worth it's price. I mean, gimme a break, all energy AND adrenaline lost? For what? A bit more damage? If they are going to keep it that way, they should at least add "can't be blocked" or "ends stance"....or both >:

Pyro maniac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

Decapitate is totally not worth it's price. I mean, gimme a break, all energy AND adrenaline lost? For what? A bit more damage? If they are going to keep it that way, they should at least add "can't be blocked" or "ends stance"....or both >:

or add bleeding so it can be used as a finisher

Zabe · Jan 15, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

or add bleeding so it can be used as a finisher

So the target will bleed to death? Oh i c wut u did thar!

erk · Jan 15, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I reckon that Death Pact signet should be a Necro skill not a Ritualist skill.

If anyone can raise something from death for a price, then Necro's Death Magic skill tree should be the home for that style of hard res.