Curse

devilru · Jan 12, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Buffs:

Monk

Amity - 30 Second recharge

Healer's Covenant - Remove upkeep, much like Healer's Boon buff.

Healing Light - 5e 3/4c 4r, increase amount healed to the same as Gift of Health, energy gained from enchantment can remain the same.
OR
5e 1c 4r
Heal Target Ally for 96 Health (14 spec), enchanted party members are also healed.

Release Enchantments - Buff cast time to 1/4, increase health gained per sacrificed enchantment to 50 (14 divine favour spec - which no one really uses)

Shield Guardian - 5e 1c 12r, For 2...5...6 seconds, Target Ally has 50% chance to block attacks, whenever that ally takes damage, that ally is healed for 5...15...25 Health.

Mark of Protection - 10e 1c 25r, 7...10 second duration & remove skill disabling thing

Supportive Spirit - 5e 1/4c 12r, For 5...19...23 seconds, whenever target ally takes damage while knocked down, that ally is healed for 15...35...50 Health.

Ray of Judgement - 10e 2c 10r, All your skills except Smiting Prayers are disabled for 5 seconds. Target foe and adjacent foes take 20...80...95 holy damage. Enchanted Foes struck by Ray of Judgment are set on fire for 2...4...6 seconds.

Necromancer

Soul Bind -, Add -3 Health Degen at 12 Curses spec

Elementalist

Energy Boon - Increase cast time to 2 seconds and remove exhaustion

Swirling Aura - 10e 2c 30r Enchantment Spell. For 6...11...15 seconds, All Nearby allies have a 50% chance to block projectiles.

Magnetic Aura - 10e 2c 30r Enchantment Spell for 4...9...13 Seconds, All Nearby Allies have a 50% chance to block Melee attacks.

Windbourne Speed - 10e 3/4c 5r Enchantment Spell. For 6...11...13 seconds, target ally moves 33% faster.

Winter's Embrace - 5e 3/4c 12r Hex Spell. For 2...5...6 seconds, you and target touched foe move 90% slower. - Should also be counted as a hex on the caster, at the moment it is unremovable on the caster.

Double Dragon - 10e 3/4c 15r, Elite Spell. For two seconds, all nearby foes are struck for 7...91...112 fire damage each second.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 12, 2008, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilru

Amity - 30 Second recharge

No one cares.

Quote:

Healer's Covenant - Remove upkeep, much like Healer's Boon buff.

Sure, but I doubt anyone will run it.

Quote:

Healing Light - 5e 3/4c 4r, increase amount healed to the same as Gift of Health, energy gained from enchantment can remain the same.

Sure.

Quote:

5e 1c 4r
Heal Target Ally for 96 Health (14 spec), enchanted party members are also healed.

No way.

Quote:

Release Enchantments - Buff cast time to 1/4, increase health gained per sacrificed enchantment to 50 (14 divine favour spec - which no one really uses)

This skill is pretty underrated, it could use a slight buff but this would make it insanely overpowered.

Quote:

Shield Guardian - 5e 1c 12r, For 2...5...6 seconds, Target Ally has 50% chance to block attacks, whenever that ally takes damage, that ally is healed for 5...15...25 Health.

Why would you run this over Guardian or SoA?

Quote:

Mark of Protection - 10e 1c 25r, 7...10 second duration & remove skill disabling thing

Elites like this will never be good without them being too good.

Quote:

Supportive Spirit - 5e 1/4c 12r, For 5...19...23 seconds, whenever target ally takes damage while knocked down, that ally is healed for 15...35...50 Health.

I really doubt people will start bringing this until it's buffed into overpoweredness.

Quote:

Ray of Judgement - 10e 2c 10r, All your skills except Smiting Prayers are disabled for 5 seconds. Target foe and adjacent foes take 20...80...95 holy damage. Enchanted Foes struck by Ray of Judgment are set on fire for 2...4...6 seconds.

Pve change or? No one cares otherwise.

Quote:

Soul Bind -, Add -3 Health Degen at 12 Curses spec

Sure.

Quote:

Energy Boon - Increase cast time to 2 seconds and remove exhaustion

Eles don't need elite energy management anymore, I don't know why you would run this when you could run glyph + a good elite.

Quote:

Swirling Aura - 10e 2c 30r Enchantment Spell. For 6...11...15 seconds, All Nearby allies have a 50% chance to block projectiles.

I like the idea but nearby probably isn't good enough and earshot will probably be too good, maybe go earshot + 15 energy.

Quote:

Magnetic Aura - 10e 2c 30r Enchantment Spell for 4...9...13 Seconds, All Nearby Allies have a 50% chance to block Melee attacks.

Aegis already does this, I don't think having an Aegis in the same attribute line as Ward Against Melee is a good idea.

Quote:

Windbourne Speed - 10e 3/4c 5r Enchantment Spell. For 6...11...13 seconds, target ally moves 33% faster.

I'd go as far as to make it 1/4c, still doubt it would be too popular though.

Quote:

Winter's Embrace - 5e 3/4c 12r Hex Spell. For 2...5...6 seconds, you and target touched foe move 90% slower. - Should also be counted as a hex on the caster, at the moment it is unremovable on the caster.

Hex Eater Vortex.

Quote:

Double Dragon - 10e 3/4c 15r, Elite Spell. For two seconds, all nearby foes are struck for 7...91...112 fire damage each second.

Again, Pve change?

Vanquisher · Jan 12, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

That would be spike, with little to no splittability.

I disagree. While the build may generally force kills through spiking, that has absolutely no relation to how such a build could be played. Dual Mesmer builds when played by teams in the past, with exactly the same classes, were not always played as spike builds, and there is nothing that defines that they would be in the future.

Quote:

That there isn't enough shutdown for defenseweb in 8v8. You can argue with it as much as you want, but there are simply too many dependencies in that build to deal with it. If you look at defenseweb builds, viewing crappy ones and the WWRMeE being able to beat it is not how to do it. The best defenseweb build played right now is rawr's build, and to determine if you have enough shutdown is to determine whether or not you have enough to shutdown rawr's defenseweb. Simply a Ranger and Mesmer for your midline shutdown will not work: 1) It's not reliable since shields up/aegis essentially takes your ranger out until you get lucky or both go down for some period of time. 2) It will take too long. The point of 8v8 shutdown against defenseweb is to kill the web before they spike you out, which they inevitably will if you give them enough time.

If splitting is taken out of the equation, you simply do not have enough reliable shutdown in a R, Me template. We've tried it, and it doesn't work. Giving yourself defense outside of running defenseweb against those types of build is also a stupid thing to do, since giving their mesmer 1 character for them to shit on all day is asking to get rolled.

Luckily it's not always taken out of the equation. I also disagree with how you say it can't be done. It can, it just takes different bars to those you may want to run with. Sure, inclusions may mean you have to spike, but hey, competitive Guild Wars is like that when it comes to tournaments, and always has been.

Quote:

That's true, but pure shutdown skills like gale/blackout is much more effective for spike teams in this meta. If an offense team expects to blackout/gale someone, it hardly matters because with the defenseweb up you're not going to get a kill anyway. If a spike team uses those skills, it gives them another venue for "hit button, target shutdown," which is how gale is used in those builds. It's also the few types of builds where your mesmer can actually run right into their backline for blackout. You don't even need shadowstep/blackout. For an offensive team to be able to utilize those skills, the web needs to be shutdown first. Taking a character/skill out for gale/blackout slows that down, and with a build to take their defense down you won't even need those skills to make pushes.

We've ran defenseweb before to see exactly how much punishment it can take, and we let our monks have about half their bars diverted and still nobody dropped under half with the defense up.

Skill changes often result in a shift in the meta. What's to say this would be any different? You're also seem to be working under the assumption that no other skills will be touched, which I doubt would be the case. Furthermore, it's not like if you change skills to create windows you'll still only be working in the confines of 8 vs. 8 slugfests. You can still split and force countersplits, as well as do whatever else you want to do.

Kaon · Jan 12, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

The game right now is in one of its best and most balanced states it's ever been in.

Lordhelmos · Jan 12, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

With partywide healing in its current state, magebane shot making interruption doable by monkies, augury of death on every caster class in the game in arenas, and unkillable rangers camping on the midline with natural stride in GvG...

Just no

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Skills for countering the effect of Diversion are tough to come by, but they exist. On the other side of the coin, you don't need a counter to the effect, because there are plenty of ways to prevent the effect, or, in other words, counter the skill itself.

Diversion is a 3s cast before fast-cast is applied. Even with fast-cast, hitting it with an interrupt of nearly any kind shouldn't be a stretch. Hell, you should have plenty of time to hit Diversion with a D-chop, even without Frenzy.

Alternately, you could have Diversion removed, either by getting someone else to remove it, pre-veil, use something that you know will recharge instantly (i.e. Sin attack skill out of order), or simply don't cast under Diversion. What's that? The Mesmer just timed your cast and Diversioned your WoH? Well then he made a damn good play and your team deserves some negative effect. If you want to talk about Diversion's disable being a little long, that's fine. We don't need a button that's strictly an anti-Diversion button, though, because there are plenty of ways to deal with it that have a lot more applications.

Edit: leave me alone, I'm tired... CoP doesn't work on Diversion, I was thinking Shame and the like...

The only thing thats going to save you from diversion after you cast through it is the flag stand. Its so powerful now because monks are more dependent on singular heals to bring redbars up. You diversion WoH and the monk is gonna take a dump in his pants when his team gets out pressured.

back on topic, here are some of my proposed changes:

NERFS:

Magebane Shot:
Up the recharge to 10, but if it successfully interrupts a skill make it recharge 50% faster. This will make it so that it still a viable skill, but punishes noob spammers with a double recharge if they whiff the interrupt.

Augury of Death:
Instead of making this skill cause a deep wound, instead make it shadow step you to the enemy and recharge all of your ATTACK skills when it triggers. This will take it out of caster spike while still making it a viable option for melee classes such as A, D, W, and possibly R.

I did like Ensign's idea of making it cause knockdown but I think an attack skill refresh would be better for the Augury. I would hate to see a deadly arts sin with Entagling Asp, Iron Parm, Augury of Death, and Signet of Judgement. Thats 4 nearly unconditional knockdowns.

Riotgear · Jan 12, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Magebane Shot:
Up the recharge to 10, but if it successfully interrupts a skill make it recharge 50% faster. This will make it so that it still a viable skill, but punishes noob spammers with a double recharge if they whiff the interrupt.

I don't think this is possible because the skill's recharge is determined at cast time, and it hasn't hit until after that. Then again, I'm not sure that really makes a difference, I'm pretty sure Savage Shot's damage is based on whether the target's casting when the shot's fired rather than when it hits.

IMO: Flat disable time (instead of additional), 10 energy.

Quote:

Augury of Death:
Instead of making this skill cause a deep wound, instead make it shadow step you to the enemy and recharge all of your ATTACK skills when it triggers. This will take it out of caster spike while still making it a viable option for melee classes such as A, D, W, and possibly R.

The whole concept of the skill makes no sense. If you're actively trying to kill someone, it'll interrupt your current attack chain. If you're not... It does nothing. If someone else decides to try to kill them... it interrupts what you're doing.

It's totally useless. It's one of the worst skill ideas ever put in the game. Either rework it completely, or bury it.

EDIT --

Quote:

The game right now is in one of its best and most balanced states it's ever been in.

GvG is stuck with an extremely stagnant W-W-R-Me-Rt/D-Mo-Mo + Paragon or B-surge setup.

TA is a mess and I should hardly have to explain why. (HINT: Warmonger's and Magebane)

HA is significantly less degenerate with S-way toast.

Farin · Jan 12, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The game right now is in one of its best and most balanced states it's ever been in.

Except the current skill selection forces you into defensive builds if you want any decent party healing. Can't put it on the runner since you'd be gimping yourself horribly.

Vanquisher · Jan 12, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Except the current skill selection forces you into defensive builds if you want any decent party healing. Can't put it on the runner since you'd be gimping yourself horribly.

Or any chance of staying alive for > 5 minutes.

Lorekeeper · Jan 12, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

is it purely because of different viewpoints on what GW GvG ''should'' be like? If Izzy has pushed skill balance in this direction for a purpose it would seem like he wanted GvGs to become more 'explosive' like an earlier poster suggested. This 'explosive' nature of gameplay would be more akin to an arcade-like game like a FPS or action game... rather than a more lengthy and deeply strategical gameplay found in traditional balanced RPGs or RTS games.

Not to mention the necessity of condensing GvG game times with arcade like gameplay that would create shorter, faster GvGs, allowing ATs to be shortened and become more accessible to more players... rather than GvGs that last 25-30min that appeal more to the hardcore players who can dedicate more time to their ATs.

Was that the intended solution to the waning GvG activity that transpired in spring/summer 2007?

Would the decision to push VoD down to 18min have influenced game balance to become what it is today?

and would extending VoD back to 20 or even 25min allow game balance of the type many posters in this thread are asking for?

Vanquisher · Jan 12, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

is it purely because of different viewpoints on what GW GvG ''should'' be like? If Izzy has pushed skill balance in this direction for a purpose it would seem like he wanted GvGs to become more 'explosive' like an earlier poster suggested. This 'explosive' nature of gameplay would be more akin to an arcade-like game like a FPS or action game... rather than a more lengthy and deeply strategical gameplay found in traditional balanced RPGs or RTS games.

Not to mention the necessity of condensing GvG game times with arcade like gameplay that would create shorter, faster GvGs, allowing ATs to be shortened and become more accessible to more players... rather than GvGs that last 25-30min that appeal more to the hardcore players who can dedicate more time to their ATs.

Was that the intended solution to the waning GvG activity that transpired in spring/summer 2007?

Would the decision to push VoD down to 18min have influenced game balance to become what it is today?

and would extending VoD back to 20 or even 25min allow game balance of the type many posters in this thread are asking for?

Pretty much. Shorter VoD was always worse for the actual game. It's not like games were always super long, the only issue was teams that turtled from early until VoD. Poor fixes were implemented and any meaning went from games that went on for a long time based on the merit of the two teams playing being good enough to stop the other. Teams tended to run far less defensive builds when VoD was longer, because there was much less point to stalling forever. Now it's so soon after the game starts who really cares? Games are, very often, going to go the distance so you may as well prepare for it.

The waning GvG activity was more due to the uselessness of it. It was just a billion fun seasons based on nothing. Whenever the GWWC's came up activity always increased and was coupled with very good matches between very good teams. I don't like the AT system at all, it's worse than the GWWC playoff system, even with its problems. Observer Mode is also far less interesting - whereas the GWWC brought regional finals to the likes of Te vs. iQ (which was one of the best matches I've seen), now I just don't really care at all, because the matches aren't as interesting and the builds tend to have more to fall back on.

zling · Jan 12, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

what this game needs most is a buff to active defenses instead of passive defenses.
Aegis, Ward vs Melee, Defensive Anthem and the like are still kings and make blockway too easy.

Animate · Jan 13, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

That's why I suggested buffing distortion/gale and nerfing mending touch/gole...
Anyway, another problem is that killing npcs is not very rewarding if the enemy simply makes up for it at vod with splinter weapon, aoe damage and a huge defense. Npcs really should be smarter and use more or different skills than pindown and trollu..whatever. All but the two knights and the bodyguard are rangers

Add different skills/elite/professions.. make npcs better quality-wise, not in numbers... even monsters in pve can tell when taking aoe dmg... give them a route to patrol or whatever... add an actual AI..

Riotgear · Jan 13, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Mo/A and Mo/W both provide solid defense options, neither are run right now because Glyph is needed to keep the defense webs up. Buffing Gale would probably just push things further to the breaking point. More Monk shutdown means the defense web grows thicker.

Counter-offense tools outside of boring megadefense is also severely lacking right now.

Hong Kong Evil · Jan 13, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Skills for countering the effect of Diversion are tough to come by, but they exist. On the other side of the coin, you don't need a counter to the effect, because there are plenty of ways to prevent the effect, or, in other words, counter the skill itself.

Diversion is a 3s cast before fast-cast is applied. Even with fast-cast, hitting it with an interrupt of nearly any kind shouldn't be a stretch. Hell, you should have plenty of time to hit Diversion with a D-chop, even without Frenzy.

Alternately, you could have Diversion removed, either by getting someone else to remove it, pre-veil, use something that you know will recharge instantly (i.e. Sin attack skill out of order), or simply don't cast under Diversion. What's that? The Mesmer just timed your cast and Diversioned your WoH? Well then he made a damn good play and your team deserves some negative effect. If you want to talk about Diversion's disable being a little long, that's fine. We don't need a button that's strictly an anti-Diversion button, though, because there are plenty of ways to deal with it that have a lot more applications.

Edit: leave me alone, I'm tired... CoP doesn't work on Diversion, I was thinking Shame and the like...

the most annoying about diversion is that, some time mesmer cast it on me just before i complete my spell/skill, its not avoidable.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 13, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hong Kong Evil

the most annoying about diversion is that, some time mesmer cast it on me just before i complete my spell/skill, its not avoidable.

That would be good mesmer play. If you were to watch the mesmer spinning in a circle while you were casting spells you'd know that avoiding diversions is quite possible. They are hardly unavoidable.

Kaon · Jan 13, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Mo/A and Mo/W both provide solid defense options, neither are run right now because Glyph is needed to keep the defense webs up. Buffing Gale would probably just push things further to the breaking point. More Monk shutdown means the defense web grows thicker.

Actually a massive gale buff would perhaps make more monks go mo/a and mo/w because then they have a skill they can use while being knocked down.

Then again, i'm not so much a fan of mo/a and mo/w, it's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing annoying when playing a warrior, i always love facing mo/es

R O C K Y · Jan 13, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

I agree with most:

Nerfs:

Augury of death: 10 energy. 2 casting time.
AGREE
Dancing daggers: This spell does not count as a lead attack if any of the 3
daggers miss (or maybe at least 2 of the daggers have to hit).
DONT AGREE: Making them just blockable is the way to go
Signet of toxic shock: 10..70 damage.
AGREE
Warmongers weapon: 15 energy. 25 recharge.
AGREE
Icy veins: 8 recharge.
AGREE
Fear me: 6 adren or 4 recharge + "target opponent in the area loses 1..4 energy"
DONT AGREE: Target Foe loses xx (no AoE) energy. Keep adren and recharge same
IWAY: 15% IAS or "for each party member..."
DONT AGREE: dosn't need a nerf at all
Magebane shot: 7 recharge.
AGREE
Beastial mauling: 25 recharge.
DONT AGREE: Changing hammer bash to str req 4> or 50% miss is way to go

Buffs:
Barbed arrows: no longer easily interrupted.
AGREE
Signet of devotion: 1 second cast.
AGREE
Inspired/revealed hex: 5..11 energy return.
AGREE
Energy drain: 3..9 energy drain.
AGREE
Energy tap: 2 second cast.
AGREE
Mantra of recall: 13..25 energy return.
AGREE

Would also like to see the necros more useful again.

Wail Of Doom - Moved to Curses
Vocal Minority Recharge 15s

*New necro non elite skills*

Sheath The Weapon. hex spell

Removes One Ritualist weapon from taget foe, if a weapon was removed target foe is foe suffers 1-7 health degen for 10 seconds:: Cast Time 1 sec Energy 10 Recharge 15 sec

Vocal Agony

Curses 5 energy 15 recharge

Removes all chants and shouts from taget foe for each chant or shout remove you take xxx damage depending on how much curses you have.

obviously you can play around with recharge energy BUT adding weapon stips + chants/shout strips is the way to go and adding them to necro brings this class right back up there.

P.S edited and I have spoken kbye.

ensoriki · Jan 13, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Wail of Doom doesn't need to be moved to curses, or any attribute for that matter, leave it in soul reaping.

Wail would probably be used more. perhaps in RA and TA or even higher if the sac was removed.

As it is now, it can be used, people just wont use it.

A N/E with Wail of Doom and Glyph of lesser energy, will not fine wails energy much of a problem the sac gets annoying

Captain Robo · Jan 13, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

what this game needs most is a buff to active defenses instead of passive defenses.
Aegis, Ward vs Melee, Defensive Anthem and the like are still kings and make blockway too easy.

Active defense requires too much micromanagement and is too energy intensive to replace passive defense. Try keeping a team alive with guardian alone, as opposed to Aegis.

Passive defense isn't going anywhere.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 13, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Active defense requires too much micromanagement and is too energy intensive to replace passive defense. Try keeping a team alive with guardian alone, as opposed to Aegis.

Passive defense isn't going anywhere.

Well for active defense to be possible you have to have a reliable source of party healing. The time period that most people are basing their idea of active defense off of (as far as I now) would be the boonprot or BL days, where the use of active defense relied entirely on a stable source of heal parties being powered out to support it.

Now, with the last really viable party heal nerfed and with offense pumped up, you simply have to have passive defense to prevent your face from being punched in by 4 physical teams.

It's gone from basically
party healing and single-target prots
to
party protting and single-target heals.