Curse

wuzzman · Jan 10, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

your better off interrupting 1/4 sec times with leech signet.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 10, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Start buffing lockdown utility skills, if you think off monk d is bad now just wait.

wuzzman · Jan 10, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

you can't have 4 off monk defense skills, when the monks on running on zero energy and diverted skills. The purpose of buffing shutdown is to move away from defense web to real utility.

Dominator1370 · Jan 10, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Diversion and Shame would still be very effective as they should rely mostly on timing them with casts rather than putting them on someone effectively shutting him down for 6 seconds (or untill it gets removed).

Look, if you just wanted to interrupt the skill and cause energy loss, you'd use Power Leak. It's more energy loss, it's recharge is nearly 3x faster, and, most importantly, it's a 1/4 second cast.

Why the hell am I going to try to time WoH (.75s cast) with, what, a 1.32s skill with fast cast, when if I'm good I can twitch interrupt it with my, what, .16s Power Leak? The whole point of bringing something like Shame is for the blackout window. What's neat, though, is that the blackout isn't absolute. If they really want/need to, they can cast through Shame. It makes for interesting and difficult choices. That's good.

Besides, it's not like your team doesn't have hex removal (right?). If you're afraid of Diversion and Shame (and you should be), bring a Veil and learn how to use it properly. It's not going to protect you 100% of the time, but if it did, why would anyone be using Diversion or Shame if they knew you'd be safe from one of the best counters out there just by putting Veil on your bar?

Animate · Jan 10, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

the first also requires positioning and timing

the second just requires mashing buttons

You can play them both with positioning and timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

If you ever played against them, and then played against Shadow Prison ones, you'd know. As I said before, AoD was the biggest part of playing an Assassin back then. Likewise, the chain wouldn't instant kill. A big part of playing with AoD involved placing anchors in positions where you could dictate the match by forcing advantages at either the stand or in the base, and that's essentially what happened when you had good players playing them. They'd outmanouvre other teams to catch people in the middle of no where and score cheeky kills, as well as forcing notable advantages by harrassing Flaggers. When something went to help, they'd ever jump on it while it can't be helped, or they'd ignore them and force a massive numerical advantage on the flag stand. Seeing as often that meant the other team was 2 characters down, it let to a strong burst of massively increased offensive power and often ended games. Then they'd go back and do the same again.

There's a big difference in the two Assassin types, even if you can't recognise it from just looking at the build.

I wouldn't only know, I actually did know everything you said already. But I don't think anyone knows why I put that example in that context, what I wanted to say with it in regards to build diversity, and that I actually didn't mean only that a/w bar. So let's just forget about it.

I wouldn't be too sure about a balance update coming soon. Even if it does, it is unlikely all the suggestions will be addressed and skills changed the way you want them. Then there'll be a new balance threat and... there will always be imperfect things you don't like until you realize that's not the point.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 10, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

AoD sins are unquestionably harder to play than SP guys. However, they're both pretty easy to play well, especially compared to classes like Monk, Warrior, or Ranger.

Ensign · Jan 10, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

A Diversion that has to ninja a skill almost instantly to be effective would be godawful. 80% of that skill is the soft shutdown with the threat of the disabling. As it's the only real mes effect left on most Mesmer bars I don't really know why you're targeting it. Mesmers that spam Diversion and Shame on Monks are annoying, not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

it seems to me that if they're doing their job they should either have a DP advantage or an NPC advantage by the time VoD rolls around.

If you were successful pre-VoD, sure. But even if so that doesn't mean you can suddenly turn around and try and fight a team straight up, as your fragile defense is even more fragile at VoD. Most of the time you need to be just as aggressive at VoD as you were before, except that the stakes are much higher - you can't just fall back at VoD to recover, as you're likely going to lose your NPC advantage or, worse, have your access to the Lord cut off so you have to fight 8v8 after a res.

I've thrown enough games away at VoD with that build, and that sort of build before. It's not pretty, and I can only imagine what would happen to a team that isn't used to aggressive VoD tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

AoD sins are unquestionably harder to play than SP guys. However, they're both pretty easy to play well, especially compared to classes like Monk, Warrior, or Ranger.

The main difference was that back in the Factions days, Assassins were weak characters from a raw power standpoint. Their effectiveness came entirely from the push and pull and NPC/flag harassment, and from the power plays created doing so. Post Nightfall for a long stretch, Assassins were overpowered characters raw power wise, that got their effectiveness from LAWL I KILLD U, with only short periods of harassment outside of dedicated splits.

The old AoD sins wouldn't be effective at all these days since the 3rd Monk character is so much more skirmish friendly now. Back then there were only a handful of sin players aware enough to make the character as worthwhile as a Warrior or Ranger. They were actually fun to play against in their own way with their push and pull. None of that has been true since the push and pull has been replaced by LOL UR DED.

Riotgear · Jan 10, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

QFT....lol the knockdowns last too long...Anti-KD is there for a reason and Aura of Stability is, in my view overpowered anyway.

As I said, I'll gladly agree to an Aura of Stability nerf when the trash gets taken out.

By trash, I mean RaO, SoJ assassins, and relic not-run. I say not-run because you think you're running, but you're really body-blocked halfway across the map. Did I mention the scoring system sucks?

Sinful Doom · Jan 10, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

As I said, I'll gladly agree to an Aura of Stability nerf when the trash gets taken out.

By trash, I mean RaO, SoJ assassins, and relic not-run.

/agree

Quote:

I say not-run because you think you're running, but you're really body-blocked halfway across the map. Did I mention the scoring system sucks?

granted this belongs in the HA section but it is funny that overcap>faster team...

erk · Jan 11, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

As I said, I'll gladly agree to an Aura of Stability nerf when the trash gets taken out.

By trash, I mean RaO, SoJ assassins, and relic not-run. I say not-run because you think you're running, but you're really body-blocked halfway across the map. Did I mention the scoring system sucks?

I don't really see to many carrying Aura of Stability on their Monk bars, I guess there are more important prots to take. It's duration is way too long though I would halve it.

It's not just Relic running, the body block -> "rubber banding" issue is a real show stopper, the game engine can't handle it properly. I would drastically reduce the radius of body block of all players/NPC's etc. which of course would nerf it as an unfortunate side effect, but the reduction of rubber banding is more important to smooth game play than the the loss in blocking, you can always use snares to compensate.

Kyp Jade · Jan 11, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I don't really see to many carrying Aura of Stability on their Monk bars, I guess there are more important prots to take. It's duration is way too long though I would halve it.

It's not just Relic running, the body block -> "rubber banding" issue is a real show stopper, the game engine can't handle it properly. I would drastically reduce the radius of body block of all players/NPC's etc. which of course would nerf it as an unfortunate side effect, but the reduction of rubber banding is more important to smooth game play than the the loss in blocking, you can always use snares to compensate.

No no no no
body blocking takes actual skill to use, building around that in HA is important if you want a holding build, If you remove body block you must bring 100000x more snares. Body blocking is a lockdown, snares only slow down. often times you must lock down a runner for 20 seconds to grab the win. Even in gvg you must lock a runner for a short period to force a morale boost at times.

Please, this game is already build wars enough, dont make it more so.

ensoriki · Jan 11, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

body blocking takes skill?
I thought it was just simple co-ordination.

1 man body block doesn't work too well
And so really any team that can co-ordinate properly can do body blocking.

moriz · Jan 11, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

bodyblocking with your entire team is not too hard. bodyblocking with only 3 characters can be quite hard to pull off.

Kyp Jade · Jan 11, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

with my old build I used to run, I got 1v1 vs zergway a lot. Instead of using standard tactic and putting water ele + hammer warrior on thier runner and everyone else defending. I sent 1 monk + Ghost + hammer warrior + mes to block, leaving 2 monk (sod prot + RC prot), 2 runners (fire ele), and water ele back in the hallway. The only thing a zerg can do on a RR is to try to block you with warriors, and hope for cripple. THey cannot do that when they are all snared. We won that match 21 - 3 before they resigned.

And no I did not have KD for snare because the warrior had steady stance. Yes it does take skill and coordination to form a block, and it does take some work to both wedge, and prevent blocks. You would be removing a HUGE part of pvp if you took away bodyblocking.

17eIvIoN · Jan 11, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

yea blocking is a skill, we've won a few games ganking last min (our guild hall is Isle of Jade), and you can body block the opposition side (red team) side gate (nearest portal and coral) with 3 people if you position them quickly enough, now getting 4 agressive characters and 3 blockers (1 players lord guarding) is a fairly hard feat to do on a gank that has to be done in 20 seconds, but without body blocking we wouldn't get that opportunity. Therefore bodyblocking = skill, Snare = Press button but not the right solution for certain aspects

Riotgear · Jan 11, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

When the effectiveness of something depends largely on how badly you can cause the game engine to glitch out, I couldn't possibly give less of a shit how much "skill" it takes to pull it off. The dependence on it should be removed, or the glitchy shit in the game engine should be fixed. It's just as lame as WoW "rewarding" mashing the Screenshot button to send your character lagging halfway across the arena causing melee characters to get "out of range" messages when they're sitting right on top of you. This sort of garbage should not be making or breaking games, ever. You are basically creating situations where people are fighting technical flaws instead of playing Guild Wars, which is completely unacceptable.

Relic run needs some serious work. Aura of Stability is a retarded ability, the only reason it does more good than harm is because mindless KD-spam builds that are even more retarded continue to be viable.

Neo-LD · Jan 11, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Honestly the above list will do absolutely nothing for the meta....a nerf to shame and diversion followed by a clumsy buff to blackout with some lol gale for everyone? Come on is this really the best this forum can come up with? Why in the world increase the power to spike? Teams will just drop what ever utility they bother bringing to keep themselves from being lol'ed gale locked for the entire match. Mesmer will just drop diversion for another interrupt and for gods sake, how the hell do you think the new version of shame, by the way shame is BADLY needed to be return to the meta, will be of any use at all?

Well, I agree that Diversion and Shame ought to be left alone, but buffing Blackout and Gale would be a good idea. Full scale battles have pretty much come down to defense grids vs. twitch interrupts. I like rewarding people who can interrupt better, but I dont like the fact that unless you have a great mesmer and ranger, the rest of your team basically doesnt get to play. Back in the day, defense grids werent as effective because the entire thing could be blown up by coordinated monk shutdown. With 3 of the main 4 tools nerfed (Diversion, Gale, Blackout) shutdown just doesnt have the necessary power, and monks can usually shrug it off with no consequence. Bring those skills back and you'll have more interesting and rewarding ways to play offense, and you'll clear out some of the degenerate defense grids. Didnt Ensign have an entire thread on this topic?

Btw, the suggestion to change Diversion to more twitch and less shutdown is terrible. As I just explained, the last thing the metagame needs is yet more reliance on twitch interrupts. Cast-time denial is a perfectly legitimate, demanding, and desirable form of offense, and allows Guild Wars to be more than just a track meet.

Legendary Shiz · Jan 11, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

The servers blow relatively large chunks at times, so being able to be effective without having to twitch 3/4's would be a nice option to have back.

erk · Jan 11, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

No no no no
body blocking takes actual skill to use, building around that in HA is important if you want a holding build, If you remove body block you must bring 100000x more snares. Body blocking is a lockdown, snares only slow down. often times you must lock down a runner for 20 seconds to grab the win. Even in gvg you must lock a runner for a short period to force a morale boost at times.

Please, this game is already build wars enough, dont make it more so.

The merits of body block is not what what I am debating , the problem is that the server does not tell you your correct position half the time when you are body blocked, you keep moving ahead as if nothing happened then rubber band back to where you were blocked, and often die as a result! If you think that's not a bad thing then good luck to you. I do!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 11, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Btw, the suggestion to change Diversion to more twitch and less shutdown is terrible. As I just explained, the last thing the metagame needs is yet more reliance on twitch interrupts. Cast-time denial is a perfectly legitimate, demanding, and desirable form of offense, and allows Guild Wars to be more than just a track meet.

The only time diversion will ever be twitch is when you use glyph of essence, it relies on timing, not on reflexes.

I do see Ensign's point however, and I sort of agree with it, but I still think diversion and shame are a bit too powerful in the current meta.