Curse

Div · Dec 16, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Despite forfeiting out the first round in the mAT, I'd have to say the selection of builds by the teams is much better this time around. There are a lot less gimmicks (partly because they were made less effective), and most of the guilds that did well primarily used some variant of balance. HA still has some problems that could be addressed, but this update doesn't feel as critical as some of the previous ones.

List of some stuff that could be changed:

- Somehow slightly nerf the IWAY build in HA. It's not a problem for a well organized guild group, but when a r3+ IWAY has a 50/50 chance against a r10+ PUG, there's something wrong.
- Icy veins spike.
- Deadly arts sin spike.
- Magebane shot for TA purposes

List of skill changes:

Nerfs:
Augury of death: 10 energy. 2 casting time.
Dancing daggers: This spell does not count as a lead attack if any of the 3 daggers miss (or maybe at least 2 of the daggers have to hit).
Signet of toxic shock: 10..70 damage.
Warmongers weapon: 15 energy. 25 recharge.
Icy veins: 8 recharge.
Fear me: 6 adren or 4 recharge + "target opponent in the area loses 1..4 energy"
IWAY: 15% IAS or "for each party member..."
Magebane shot: 7 recharge.
Beastial mauling: 25 recharge.

Buffs:
Barbed arrows: no longer easily interrupted.
Signet of devotion: 1 second cast.
Inspired/revealed hex: 5..11 energy return.
Energy drain: 3..9 energy drain.
Energy tap: 2 second cast.
Mantra of recall: 13..25 energy return.

Others:
Divine healing/heaven's delight: 1 second cast. 20 recharge. Shout range. Heal for 10..118.
Channeling: 5..35 duration. 12 recharge.

Feel free to add anything new to the list.

Theli · Dec 17, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

i like ur changes :P

IWAY always SUX.
deadly arts spikes its mmmmmmmmm anet doesn't know how to stop it :P
Icy veins 8 recharge is fine
same as Magebane, in TA/RA.

But i think anet will nerf
Song of resto
Protective was kaolay

and any other party healing skill excep Heal Party.

makosi · Dec 17, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

That's a good list. For "Fear Me!" I have heard suggestions from people who think it should be changed to target foe instead of 'nearby' foes, which I like.

erk · Dec 17, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Rangers overall have access to too many unblockable interrupts for 4v4. Usually there are one or two viable targets so he camps on one and it's GG.

Recharge nerfs. on Punsishing Shot, Magebane.

Also I agree that something has to be done about Dancing Daggers, it's too popular in 4v4, removing the lead attack status is a good idea, and up the energy cost to make it similar to other skills that cause 90-100 damage eg. if an Earth Ele was to do 90-100 damage with Stone Daggers it would cost them least 10 energy to achieve a similar result.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 17, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I've always thought that magebane should just be at 10r/20sec disable, basically a copy of dshot with unblockable on it. That would make the risk/reward a little higher, and would promote actual careful usage to hit stuff rather than random spamming. And I don't think that it would be anywhere near underpowered considering that you're still getting 2 dshots on a bar, one of which is unblockable.

But protective was kaolai probably needs a buff, as right now it's a pretty bad party heal (though there aren't many options).

lacasner · Dec 17, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I think your sin changes are somewhat pointless, the only thing which should be changed is augry of death really.

Augry of Death : 10 energy, 2 second cast time, everything else stay the same. This skill is juststupid,and requires no skill to use. Maybe nerf it more than this, im not sure

Imo, also tone guardian down a little bit and add a 4 second recharge or so, a bit too good atm.

Also, can i ask for a HoTo rebuff? Because sins at least have to do something :P

erk · Dec 17, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theli

But i think anet will nerf
Song of resto
Protective was kaolay

and any other party healing skill excep Heal Party.

I hope not, since LoD use died on the butt, keeping party bars topped up is a hassle. The Rit and Paragon "off Monk" alternatives help a bit, but they are no way as effective as LoD use to be. I noticed [SpNv] running some nasty degen in the monthly final, Cripshot spreading poisoning all over the place is still rampant, and Splinter AoE is fotm.

Riotgear · Dec 17, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Dancing daggers: This spell does not count as a lead attack if any of the 3 daggers miss (or maybe at least 2 of the daggers have to hit).

I'm not sure if doing that's possible, but even if it is, the major problem with DA spike right now is Augury of Death, not DD.

Quote:

Warmongers weapon: 15 energy.

Shorten the duration.

Quote:

IWAY: 15% IAS.

Logically, IWAY should work based on party members, not allies, but I think they changed it TO work in its current functionality. I guess someone told Izzy that cheap buffs that last forever and have no drawbacks were good for the game.

Amalek · Dec 17, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I think a good solution to Fear Me would be to add a 2-4s recharge as with GftE and Watch Yourself

Farin · Dec 17, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

bring back LoD >(

Dominator1370 · Dec 17, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Some numbers:

Dshot: 10s recharge, 20 second disable of skill
Magebane: 5s recharge, 10 second disable of spell
Savage: 5s recharge

Since no one is running around screaming for Savage to be nerfed, I'm going to assume that the availability of an interrupt skill every 5 seconds isn't a problem. I'm going to have to further assume, then, that the problem lies elsewhere.

Is it unblockability? Cripshot is unblockable. Cripshot isn't a problem. Then again, Cripshot doesn't interrupt, so maybe it isn't the perfect example. Called Shot, however, is unblockable, and I can think of plenty of ways to make it interrupt. Dazed would work, but it's even easier than trying to get dazed to stick. If you're willing to run a Sup Wilderness Survival rune and Serpent's Quickness, Incendiary Arrows becomes maintainable and causes interrupts and burning with every shot. Choking gas is an option too, if you don't mind running Practiced Stance. Besides, Psychic Distraction blows anything out the window for "unblockable" interrupts. It doesn't seem like it's unblockability, then.

Is it the disabling? Dshot disables any skill for 20 seconds on a 10 second recharge. Magebane only disables spells, and it does it for 10 seconds on a 5 second recharge. The disable length is the same. Magebane is more spamable, it's true. Dshot, however, disables skills rather than just spells, and only requires one interrupt to keep a skill disabled for 20 seconds, rather than Magebane's 2. It's also not elite. There are situation you'd want the longer one-time interrupt, and there are situations you'd want the shorter, more spamable interrupt. It doesn't make one or the other imbalanced. If you make Magebane an 8 second recharge, it disables just over half as much as Dshot, and Magebane takes your elite slot. Doesn't make sense.

The only other thing I can think of is the triple interrupt factor. However, Punishing Shot has been around forever, so that can't be the problem. Besides, if you're packing that many interrupts, chances are you aren't doing a heck of a lot of damage. It makes much more sense to drop Savage and run Magebane and Dshot with something like Sloth Hunter or Screaming Shot.

Verdict: I don't see a problem with Magebane. Is it a threat on the battlefield? Sure. That's nothing new. If you're not threatening in some way, you really shouldn't be on the battlefield in the first place. It's not like there aren't any counters, anyway. It removes one of the counters to Rangers, sure, but you can still blind the Ranger (might not stick, since most Rangers use Mending Touch, and I know what a travesty it is for people to actually have to have skill and use things at the right times rather than just dropping a blind and forgetting about it, but....), it might make sense to throw a well timed Clumsiness on a Ranger if they're a serious threat, Faintheartedness will make it a huge pain to time interrupts (might be interesting to make Faint more spamable with a shorter duration, but that's a different discussion), and that's just a few... Get creative. Don't nerf a skill just because it causes problems. I mean, Infuse is a real pain in the ass for spikes, but I don't hear anyone yelling to nerf that.

Sab · Dec 17, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

This was a good thread until ensoriki showed up and started posting crappy suggestions in literally every second post.

Anyways.

DA sins - I think Augury's a bigger problem than Dancing Daggers, not to mention Augury's being used in lame caster spikes too. Of course I won't have a problem if both are nerfed. Some combination of reworking the mechanics, increasing the recharge or increasing the cost would be great.

Warmongers - reduce duration, increase recharge. The uptime/downtime is currently too good, even without the bonus from Spawning Power.

Magebane - currently the 5e/5r + unblockable + disable is a little too much. Change any one of the variables and it should be fine.

IWAY - I was under the impression that most Steady Stancers run 14 Tac anyway, for the energy return breakpoint from SS. That's what I heard from a friend. Honest. Adding a recharge to Fear Me would be a good solution.

Ancestor's - Still pretty ridiculous. Maybe increase the cost to encourage smarter use.

mrmango · Dec 17, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Why totally kill Iway? It makes sense to reduce it to only teammates though.
25% is feasible.
And 15 energy for warmongers? just make the duration shorter.
Killing is just not good imo.

Riotgear · Dec 17, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Stuff

I don't even know where to start. You're spewing out irrelevant comparisons left and right.

Called Shot is a regular-speed attack, and anything that causes Dazed is blockable. Dazed itself is removable too.

Incendiary Arrows relies on sheer spam to work, because if you want to actually aim for a skill, you want a fast attack and all of the fast attacks interrupt anyways so who gives a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.

Choking Gas requires Practiced Stance to be worth running, meaning you damage the bar in other ways, in addition to the spam factor of IA.

Punishing Shot costs twice as much, can be blocked, and doesn't disable.

PD is run on a completely different type of character, in addition to costing a hell of a lot more.

The reason Magebane is a problem is that it provides everything you could possibly want in an interrupt, including the ability to be easily dropped on to an already-powerful bar.

Quote:

It removes one of the counters to Rangers, sure, but you can still blind the Ranger blah blah

Same as the old "you can counter it with Diversion" crap. Rangers are fine without Magebane Shot and all of those counters work, so obviously there are ways to deal with those counters. Magebane Shot itself happens to be one of them.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 17, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Some numbers:

Dshot: 10s recharge, 20 second disable of skill
Magebane: 5s recharge, 10 second disable of spell
Savage: 5s recharge

Since no one is running around screaming for Savage to be nerfed, I'm going to assume that the availability of an interrupt skill every 5 seconds isn't a problem. I'm going to have to further assume, then, that the problem lies elsewhere.

Is it unblockability? Cripshot is unblockable. Cripshot isn't a problem. Then again, Cripshot doesn't interrupt, so maybe it isn't the perfect example. Called Shot, however, is unblockable, and I can think of plenty of ways to make it interrupt. Dazed would work, but it's even easier than trying to get dazed to stick. If you're willing to run a Sup Wilderness Survival rune and Serpent's Quickness, Incendiary Arrows becomes maintainable and causes interrupts and burning with every shot. Choking gas is an option too, if you don't mind running Practiced Stance. Besides, Psychic Distraction blows anything out the window for "unblockable" interrupts. It doesn't seem like it's unblockability, then.

Is it the disabling? Dshot disables any skill for 20 seconds on a 10 second recharge. Magebane only disables spells, and it does it for 10 seconds on a 5 second recharge. The disable length is the same. Magebane is more spamable, it's true. Dshot, however, disables skills rather than just spells, and only requires one interrupt to keep a skill disabled for 20 seconds, rather than Magebane's 2. It's also not elite. There are situation you'd want the longer one-time interrupt, and there are situations you'd want the shorter, more spamable interrupt. It doesn't make one or the other imbalanced. If you make Magebane an 8 second recharge, it disables just over half as much as Dshot, and Magebane takes your elite slot. Doesn't make sense.

The only other thing I can think of is the triple interrupt factor. However, Punishing Shot has been around forever, so that can't be the problem. Besides, if you're packing that many interrupts, chances are you aren't doing a heck of a lot of damage. It makes much more sense to drop Savage and run Magebane and Dshot with something like Sloth Hunter or Screaming Shot.

Verdict: I don't see a problem with Magebane. Is it a threat on the battlefield? Sure. That's nothing new. If you're not threatening in some way, you really shouldn't be on the battlefield in the first place. It's not like there aren't any counters, anyway. It removes one of the counters to Rangers, sure, but you can still blind the Ranger (might not stick, since most Rangers use Mending Touch, and I know what a travesty it is for people to actually have to have skill and use things at the right times rather than just dropping a blind and forgetting about it, but....), it might make sense to throw a well timed Clumsiness on a Ranger if they're a serious threat, Faintheartedness will make it a huge pain to time interrupts (might be interesting to make Faint more spamable with a shorter duration, but that's a different discussion), and that's just a few... Get creative. Don't nerf a skill just because it causes problems. I mean, Infuse is a real pain in the ass for spikes, but I don't hear anyone yelling to nerf that.

The problem with analyzing each aspect in particular is that you miss the specific combinations that prove to be too powerful. The problem is that it's a spell disable on a recharge short enough that spamming it is extremely powerful (aka skilless) along with being on a character/being a skill that happens to counter most of it's counters (mend touch + unblockable, totally shuts down hexes through interrupts). 2 dshots is already extremely powerful, with one of them being available pretty much whenever you want and being unblockable it starts to get crazy.

And the counters you list don't help at all b/c, as I said, it's a character with a ridiculous amount of interrupts with disables, you aren't going to be getting any hexes off or enough to stick anytime soon.

However, I think the main thing pushing it over the top is that it doesn't reward skill at all simply because of how much it is available. Put it on the same stats as dshot (10r, 20 disable) and look at how powerful it is, then adjust from there.

Riotgear · Dec 17, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

However, I think the main thing pushing it over the top is that it doesn't reward skill at all simply because of how much it is available. Put it on the same stats as dshot (10r, 20 disable) and look at how powerful it is, then adjust from there.

The problem with an elite D-shot is that D-shot is good enough to be elite. Anything better is probably broken. :P

FoxBat · Dec 17, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Since you can't exploit pet corpses, it would make sense if you can't IWAY off them either...

Son Of The Axe · Dec 17, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Since you can't exploit pet corpses, it would make sense if you can't IWAY off them either...

psh as if logic has any standing.

Ensign · Dec 17, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

The game wants more buffs to fill in the gaps than nerfs on problem skills right now. If it weren't for the party healing problem, I'd say that there weren't any must-fix issues.

My short list of skills that should get a slight hit:

"Fear Me!" - This is the skill that continues to make Steady Stance button mashers a problem; it goes absolutely apeshit with an adrenal engine fueling it. I'd like to see it get the "Watch Yourself!" / "Go for the Eyes!" treatment with a shortish recharge; it might want to get kicked up to 6 adrenaline as well.

Augury of Death - A problem everywhere it's used, it's not just a spammable caster Deep Wound, but one that's particularly difficult to remove until it's ready to be triggered for the kill. It's the last really abusive skill on a Deadly Arts sin (which is otherwise a decent but entirely fair character), and a key component of every degenerate spike build still in the game. As a spammable caster spike skill, it should have a 2 second cast time at the very least, and possibly cost 10 energy as well. Or it could simply be reverted and no longer cause a Deep Wound; that might actually be preferable, as the original intent of the skill has absolutely nothing to do with how it's used anymore, and all of its real uses are problematic.

Aura of Stability - It lasts too long. You get essentially 100% uptime out of the skill at 5 spec, and at a real Prot spec the skill lingers for ages. I'd like to see the duration drop to 3...15 seconds, but otherwise be left unchanged.

Ancestor's Rage - It's still a dumb spike skill that far outclasses everything else in the game, though I think it adds a valuable dimension to Ritualists. I'd like to see its spike potential lowered somewhat; the model I have in my mind is ala Shatterstone, at 5e/.75c/8-10r with ~75 damage on hit as well as 3 seconds later. I'm sure there are other ways to touch it as well, the only thing I'm sure of is that it's not balanced as is.

Magebane Shot - It's balanced in GvG only because of the tactical power of Crippling Shot; everywhere else in the game this thing is abusively good, as well as in any 8v8 confrontation. I wouldn't want to see it nerfed too hard, because I do like more reasonable options. Maybe the recharge is what you want to hit, but increasing the energy cost to 10 would be reasonable as well.

Hex Eater Vortex - I honestly have no clue what to do with this. It's so good when it's active at all that it wins games on its own, and essentially pushes anything that hexes melee out of the metagame; as a consequence the skill isn't a must run, because people refuse to feed it. My instinct is to cut the damage on it significantly.

That's it for nerfs. I don't think anything else in the current environment needs to be touched. More important are the skills that are buffed. In particular, I think there's a strong case to buff the following:

Divine Healing - Party healing is an essential mechanic. Monks can't do it anymore, at least not without a huge defensive web to support a Healer's Boon / Heal Party guy (which is even worse for the game than LoD was); there are so few options and it forces your build significantly enough that there's now a hard split between defensive infrastructure necessary to fight 8v8, and the ability to play Guild Wars. I've read several different sets of numbers for a 1c, earshot Divine Healing, several of which could work to provide a reasonable source of necessary party healing without being problematic like the old LoD.

Pin Down / Barbed Arrows - Crippling Shot is as essential as it is in no small part because of how crappy Pin Down is. A meaningful buff to Pin Down would put less pressure on Rangers to bring Pin Down if they want to be effective tactically. In a similar vein, there are several situations where I've wanted to try dual Rangers, but the alternative preps are so crappy that you end up running two copies of Apply Poison despite the overlap. Rangers have been locked into virtually identical bars for quite some time, and more viable alternatives would be very welcome.

Troll Unguent / Healing Signet - Self heals are essential for small scale split tactics (without bringing another defensive character along) and the previously essential options are really questionable now. Both of these could use a nudge upward to compensate for the damage creep the game has gone through.

Reckless Haste - I know, I know, but Curses guys are pretty much unplayable right now; Reckless (and Price) were linchpin skills before the changes and without them Curse Necros are straight up inferior to Mesmers in pretty much every respect. This skill, as well as Price, need more fiddling with.

Drain Enchantment, Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Mantra of Recall - The reasons these were nerfed so hard back in the day are no longer relevant with the long-standing buff to Glyph of Lesser Energy. Glyph is better than the entire Inspiration line right now for energy management; it's ridiculous that if I want to put a second energy skill on a Mesmer, it is invariably Glyph, even with a high Inspiration spec. If there's a good reason these skills are still as marginal as they are, in the face of a stronger, less conditional, easier to use, 0-spec alternative, I'd like to know what it is.

Dominator1370 · Dec 17, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Glyph is better than the entire Inspiration line right now for energy management; it's ridiculous that if I want to put a second energy skill on a Mesmer, it is invariably Glyph, even with a high Inspiration spec. If there's a good reason these skills are still as marginal as they are, in the face of a stronger, less conditional, easier to use, 0-spec alternative, I'd like to know what it is.

Now, does this mean that GoLE is overpowered, or that about a quarter of the skills in the game are underpowered?