Curse

Lorekeeper · Jan 17, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwars.com

* Archers: now have Precision Shot.
* Footmen: now have Pure Strike.
* Knights: now have Warrior's Cunning.
* Victory or Death: reduced the damage bonus to +15%; removed the maximum Health reduction. Guild Lords now prioritize other Guild Lords over players as targets.

Any clues as to why these changes were made?

They obviously put a dent into builds that rely on block defenses like aegis and wards, and perhaps that is Anets way of pushing splits that seek to reduce NPC amounts before VoD?

Why couldnt they have updated skills that help/hinder skirmish templates?

One nice change is that you no longer have health reduction at VoD so DPed teams stand a better chance and spike builds like bloodspike dont get such a big boost. The reduction to the dmg bonus sort of offsets the new ability of NPCs to hit through block defense... but was the reduction necessary? Should it be reduced even more?

Is it their way of saying ''even if you run blockway it wont help as much anymore''?

What, if any, changes to GvG meta will this update achieve?

Snype · Jan 17, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

It won't change anything. So what if blockway is a *little* less effective at VoD vs the NPC's. The archers will die after 30 seconds once their warrior has splinter weapon on him anyway. Without any health decrease, the NPC's "extra" damage to blockway wont even be noticeable. This change just means longer games for everyone-who wants that anyway?

Winstar · Jan 17, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

The problem is that while it might improve things against blockway at vod (though ancestros/splinter are still a problem and npc balling up) tougher NPC's also make it harder on splits to stand up to NPC pressure, and there were not any real improvements to scirmish tempates (self heals etc)

Div · Jan 18, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

In the limited amount of games I played/observed today since the change, I noticed that games between two even teams going at it 8v8 lasted much longer. Balanced splits are harder to pull off, while dedicated splits can still perform relatively well taking out a base. The extra skills added to NPCs may result in a nasty initial spike when they first come out, but the overall VoD nerf makes that fairly insignificant. I'll probably change some of these views after playing/observing different types of builds and the effects on each of them.

erk · Jan 18, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

The problem is that while it might improve things against blockway at vod (though ancestros/splinter are still a problem and npc balling up) tougher NPC's also make it harder on splits to stand up to NPC pressure, and there were not any real improvements to scirmish tempates (self heals etc)

Tougher NPC's are not a bad thing, they do tend to fall a bit easy, hence the effectiveness of splinter at VoD. Perhaps give them a better AL to reduce splinter damage.

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Or we could, you know, reduce splinter damage to reduce splinter damage, but nah, we'll just buff Scorpion Wire, Vengeance, and Glyph of Essence. Seriously, I couldn't have even told you what Glyph of Essence did.

I think buffing a few self-heals to compensate will make this change a lot more worthwhile. And despite what some have suggested, please, for the love of god, don't buff Lion's Comfort and think you've done your job.

Oh, I get it know... We were supposed to Glyph of Essence our Vengeance!

TheOneMephisto · Jan 18, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Or we could, you know, reduce splinter damage to reduce splinter damage, but nah, we'll just buff Scorpion Wire, Vengeance, and Glyph of Essence. Seriously, I couldn't have even told you what Glyph of Essence did.

Oh, I get it know... We were supposed to Glyph of Essence our Vengeance!

I know for a fact that quite a few top teams ran glyph essence->diversion during the LoD days, as a single diversion on LoD would make the game during that meta. So you should probably know what it is if you payed any attention.

Riotgear · Jan 18, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Seriously, I couldn't have even told you what Glyph of Essence did.

Pre-LoD nerf I've seen a few teams slot it so they can shoot Diversion into LoD/Aegis casts with little warning.

erk · Jan 18, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Or we could, you know, reduce splinter damage to reduce splinter damage, but nah, we'll just buff Scorpion Wire, Vengeance, and Glyph of Essence. Seriously, I couldn't have even told you what Glyph of Essence did.

I think buffing a few self-heals to compensate will make this change a lot more worthwhile. And despite what some have suggested, please, for the love of god, don't buff Lion's Comfort and think you've done your job.

Oh, I get it know... We were supposed to Glyph of Essence our Vengeance!

It's a replacement for Glyph of Sacrifice on a res which disables the res skill for 30sec. more. I don't think it will get much use, Death pact is fotm for those that suddenly want a 6v8 game. Splinter reduction doesn't buff NPC's. I would like to see more split builds in use rather than an ad hoc balanced team splitting that can't deal with improved NPC's. The 8v8 turtle is boring.

Div · Jan 18, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

After getting a few more matches in, I noticed that slight NPC advantages leading up to VoD barely matters at all. Most defensive teams seem now even more capable of tanking the archer waves (and using splinter/ancestors to kill them) and forcing an 8v8 situation, and from then on it becomes an endurance test.

Captain Robo · Jan 18, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Anet clearly has no idea how to balance, much less even PLAY this game.

Ensign · Jan 18, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

After playing a few games and looking at what's going on at VoD, I'm not all that happy with the change.

First off, the Guild Lords choosing each other as a priority target is a joke. They do latch on to each other, and promptly start *sniping at each other with their longbows*. They never switch off of it to pull out an axe to attack anyone who gets close, they're stuck in an endless longbow duel until the end of time. This is, in a word, retarded. If the Lords are going to focus each other, and I was under the impression that this was a key part of the new VoD plan, it needs to be in melee.

The anti-block stuff doesn't make too much of a difference. It makes individual NPCs a bit rougher to kill before VoD from the extra damage, but not enough so that it has any real effect on a split strategy. But at VoD, the anti-block mostly manifests itself as a Pin Down -> Precision Shot spike on whoever takes aggro from the waves of archers, making Guardians less effective for keeping a Warrior alive in there. After the spikes, the Precision Shots don't matter much at all. If Aegis is up, it's still just as effective at stopping pressure, knockdowns, and interrupts on affected party members, and still serves as a pre-prot against any sort of spike. A few scattered Precision Shots do not matter. Again, the big difference has not been a hit to Aegis, but to Guardian and single target prots; a Warrior that wades into the NPCs to get something done takes a lot more damage now.

Overall the value of NPCs feels like it has diminished with this update, at least at VoD. They don't hit nearly as hard (not just a bit less damage, but everyone having full HP means the hits aren't nearly as threatening), and people holding up better without the health reduction, in general, has made it easier to tank waves of NPCs as they came in until you're able to kill them.

VoD is much less lethal in general now. The NPCs aren't as dangerous, and with higher health totals people aren't susceptible to sudden death the way they used to be. VoD fights with NPCs don't resolve themselves quickly and decisively; instead teams can hold up to NPC pressure long enough to clear out a decent chunk of archers and continue fighting. Instead of being a quick decisive battle, VoD with NPCs now feels like a war of attrition that can outlast the NPCs themselves. Advantages going into VoD mean much less; staying power for the ensuing 8v8 slugfest means much more.

While I think there are some advantages to the new system, such as devaluing spikes at VoD, I feel that the new version of VoD devalues NPCs, and places even more value upon 8v8 durability - neither of which are directions I'd be happy to see GvG move.

Tul · Jan 18, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

With the new VoD mechanism I do not see a lot of games being decided before the 30mn mark, provided that the teams are more or less evenly matched. It implies that most tournament matches would call for the "Guild Lord Status" rule in order to determine a winner, and that sucks.

DutchSmurf · Jan 18, 2008, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

While I think there are some advantages to the new system, such as devaluing spikes at VoD, I feel that the new version of VoD devalues NPCs, and places even more value upon 8v8 durability - neither of which are directions I'd be happy to see GvG move.

Is it possible to give the NPCs the old (or an even higher) damage boost, while keeping the players at the current level? That would make them more dangerous while keeping the advantages of the new system.

Moloch Vein · Jan 18, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Hey, I have a great idea. Since it seems nothing happens before VoD, and VoD is just getting longer and longer...

Let's make the entire GvG VoD?

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Is it possible to give the NPCs the old (or an even higher) damage boost, while keeping the players at the current level? That would make them more dangerous while keeping the advantages of the new system.

Even if it is, a blockway team is still going to have an easier time tanking the NPC's beefed up damage than the non-blockway team is. They have one unblockable skill now, but that apparently isn't enough to make a difference. Maybe we need some NPC Me/E FC Rodgort's spammers. Or NPC Paragons spamming Anthem of Guidance. Or.... something.

Byron · Jan 18, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

While I think there are some advantages to the new system, such as devaluing spikes at VoD, I feel that the new version of VoD devalues NPCs, and places even more value upon 8v8 durability

Definitely so. It seems like so long as a team can ocansionally split defensively, even on maps like Frozen, they can otherwise play 8v8 the whole match and be fine. As said, NPC advantages mean less because VoD isn't nearly as lethal; it takes a team effort to kill any NPCs at the stand during VoD, splinter weapon or not.

Likely the meta will just be further focused into a battle of stagnant defense and interrupts, with some more focus on prot shutdown.

Winstar · Jan 18, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I haven't really had the chance to play more than a few matches under the new vod so I'm disappointed to hear the changes had almost the opposite effect of what they were intened to produce.

I think what pretty much everyone wants is to reduce the effectiveness blockway at VoD, and increase the effectiveness of other tactical options like splits or builds in general which are not blockway.

Please don't give up on making adjustments with this goal in mind as soon as possible. Take our message to Izzy Andrew Patrick! Oh and add a deep wound to cleave.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 18, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I've watched it in Obs mode, but haven't played GvG since the change. I will be this weekend though, and I'm interested to see how it works out.

erk · Jan 18, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I agree with Ensign in that the Guild Lords should engage each other in Melee no bows at VoD.

Balancing the NPC's looks tricky, you have to make them lethal, not doubt about that to encourage splits during the game. However that's a double edged sword, as people may will tend to play until VoD to take advantage of them. The reduction in health loss at VoD seams good to avoid VoD spikes, but it needs to be offset with more NPC damage to still make VoD a turning point in a tied game.