Curse

Riotgear · Jan 14, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Persh

proactive vs reactive

Well, ideally proactive measures should be taken in anticipation of a specific threat, not just mindless saturation.

DutchSmurf · Jan 14, 2008, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Re: interesting game, one that is evenly matched is often interesting, but the post mentioned deaths alone, and the only way you're almost completely assured such things is in spike builds. Personally, I like seeing two good teams playing well, punishing mistakes, and trying different things to get around the others defences. I don't think there has to be a special type of build to make for interesting games, though there are definately ones that make for boring games. Mind, I also don't think how interesting a game appears to be on Obs Mode is any reason to talk about the balance issues and they should be done based need.

I completely agree. Didn't expect people to react on that part of my post, so I didn't think about completely explaining what in my opinion makes interesting games.

Cass · Jan 14, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

OP's argument is somewhat illogical. As mentioned, one can always split. Big advantage of the GvG game mode, many would say. :P Or is splitting stale too?

Captain Robo · Jan 14, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Splits used to be an ace in the hole, but without ample defense, they can just get RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO'd these days.

wuzzman · Jan 14, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

splits? No point in splitting. What many would consider bad VoD strategy is actually blockways method of winning. It's quite simple really, Rit and Monk runners can buy time till VoD by turtling at the guild lord, healing npc's to buy more time. Npc advantages don't dent blockway much anyway. It is perfectly possible for blockway to tank the npc's. It takes a 3 man split to really push into their base and do some damage, but usually the blockway team can afford a ranger and a warrior to go back and make you back off. Hell they can get some of your gankers DP'ed if they come at the wrong time. In order for a split to "do some damage" against blockway it needs to put some DP on the flagger. For a split to really work, as in game winning work, it can't settle for NPC advantage it needs to DP out the flag runner or kill the guild lord. The days of "at least I killed some npc's" is long gone.

Blame the Monks · Jan 14, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

splits? No point in splitting. What many would consider bad VoD strategy is actually blockways method of winning. It's quite simple really, Rit and Monk runners can buy time till VoD by turtling at the guild lord, healing npc's to buy more time. Npc advantages don't dent blockway much anyway. It is perfectly possible for blockway to tank the npc's. It takes a 3 man split to really push into their base and do some damage, but usually the blockway team can afford a ranger and a warrior to go back and make you back off. Hell they can get some of your gankers DP'ed if they come at the wrong time. In order for a split to "do some damage" against blockway it needs to put some DP on the flagger. For a split to really work, as in game winning work, it can't settle for NPC advantage it needs to DP out the flag runner or kill the guild lord. The days of "at least I killed some npc's" is long gone.

Jesus Christ, wuzzman said something that wasn't completely wrong.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 14, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Jesus Christ, wuzzman said something that wasn't completely wrong.

I know. I read it and was like, this writing looks like wuzzman's, but it actually saying something decent.

But besides that, I do think that NPCs need to have some more value at VoD. It used to be that killing off 1-2 archers would be part of an investment that would pay off at VoD and you could use it to your advantage. Now teams can just tank into anything but a big VoD difference and games will depends on how much the NPCs ball up to get destroyed by splinter.

Kaon · Jan 14, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Say, can people now actually tell me what blockway is? I think most of you seem to be referring to 2mo/e and a ward... Something every good balanced build in gw has always run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Jesus Christ, wuzzman said something that wasn't completely wrong.

Indeed, it was only 99% wrong.

Burton2000 · Jan 14, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I would say a decicated 3 man split build is still a good build that can beat the current meta. Most teams dont have the mobility to keep up and the fact splinter is on most teams runners gives you a real advantage at vod.

Also, if you get any half decent npc kills pre vod then your sure to win as long as you keep yours because the archer pressure is just too much along with the split going.

pygar · Jan 14, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Oddly, for as important as the OP makes rangers sound in the thread....when observing top GvG battles I usually only see one ranger in about every 3 teams.

From reading the OP, am also not clear on why they think the party healing nerfs are causing more stalemate....if nothing else before the nerfs you could have just as much focus on stance blocking and have LoD or heal party to back it up.

Anyways, moreso than any skill change i can think of to shake things up, maybe GW is due for a new format of PvP to change things....make some form of guild battles with multiple control points like they have in hero arenas or something.....

Captain Robo · Jan 14, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Anyways, moreso than any skill change i can think of to shake things up, maybe GW is due for a new format of PvP to change things....make some form of guild battles with multiple control points like they have in hero arenas or something.....

That would quite possibly be the worst ever

Vanquisher · Jan 14, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Say, can people now actually tell me what blockway is? I think most of you seem to be referring to 2mo/e and a ward... Something every good balanced build in gw has always run.

There are a few differences between now and then. Notably Distortion being on people (Rangers, Mesmers, occasionally Assassins) until it was nerfed, but there was a lower abundance of Aegis. Monks were more self sufficient (Boon Prots) but couldn't put up with distributed damage all that well so you needed the E-Prod powered Heal Party to mop it up as best you could.

A lot of Warriors though, and this really needs to be noted, took stuff like Warrior's Cunning, or Way of the Fox, to deal with this - something todays Warriors don't seem comfortable doing. Now it's more about "well, blocking shouldn't be this powerful", rather than thinking "how can we make sure even if they do have high block potential we can still break through their defences?".

Split was also more of a gameplan. While builds were not, and did not need to be, dedicated towards splitting, as has happened now, teams often utilised high mobility to force advantages or poor positioning. The same mistakes in terms of response happen, but it is less likely for such punishment as the response is not so game breaking. Flag Runners, as a rule, are much better at staying alive then before. We've moved away from the Ele as a runner, which had a bar packed with utility, and instead gone to the Rit, which brings in stupidly good utility like Splinter Weapon at VoD in far more easily, as well as having skills like Weapon of Warding there for self/base defence. Mending Touch killed off Air Eles in terms of base defence, which made those who were going to defend pack healing instead of blind.

I'd much rather see nerfs to the offensive side of this game that gives the need to run the amount of defence in builds than just the defence, but that's unlikely to happen outside of a few changes to things like Ancestor's / Splinter. I'd also like to see buffs to window creating skills like Blackout, and I'd definately like to see nerfs to interrupts. Sure, defensive skills may need a bit of downgrading too, but I like teams needing to coordinate well to score kills, and play well to avoid them. (Undoubtedly people will see this as just promoting spike, but realistically with decent balance changes to both sides it should encourage more coordinated shutdown play from the midline, that doesn't simply involve needing to have a good computer and connection to the server).

Also, VoD timer needs to be increased to give more allowance for different tactics when in a match. Effective splitting takes time - more time than is allowed currently - especially with the changes to the defensive characters.

DutchSmurf · Jan 14, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'd much rather see nerfs to the offensive side of this game that gives the need to run the amount of defence in builds than just the defence, but that's unlikely to happen outside of a few changes to things like Ancestor's / Splinter.

Can you tell at which skills you are looking then? Since the main offense comes from the same sources as it did years ago. There are more options (dervishes, assassins, paragons) but in most builds the main difference is the paragon. On the other side Anet has completely killed energy denial. So are you suggesting some major nerfs to the spear attacks/damage? Or would you rather go after the (axe) warrior?

Dominator1370 · Jan 14, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

A lot of Warriors though, and this really needs to be noted, took stuff like Warrior's Cunning, or Way of the Fox, to deal with this - something todays Warriors don't seem comfortable doing. Now it's more about "well, blocking shouldn't be this powerful", rather than thinking "how can we make sure even if they do have high block potential we can still break through their defences?".

In the nicest way possible, if unblockable attacks were easily accessible and successful, people would be running them. If people stopped running them, there just may be a reason.

Way of the Fox gives you enough unblockable attacks for one adren. unload, possibly with an attack or two left over if you spec'ed high enough. One unblockable unload every 45 seconds... Not absolutely terrible, but one serious threat every 45 seconds probably isn't going to be anything gamebreaking, and it means giving up a skill slot.

Warrior's Cunning is up for 10 seconds, which is nice, but it's on a 60s recharge. ~16% uptime. Maybe it's just me, but that rubs me the wrong way.

There are, of course, other options. The SA sin combo is unblockable, but without anti-melee hexes, Sins are dangerous on the front line of a stand team (especially without effective party-healing), and SA sins aren't exactly built for the split. Fox's Promise has nice uptime, but it can only be used on a Sin, so you'd have to find a way to fit the sin into a balanced build. If you could get Rigor Mortis to stick, it'd be great, but HEV eats hex teams alive (literally).

Basically, physicals are powerful, but they're fairly easy to counter with blocking. If unblockable attacks were effective, blocking would be pointless, and the game would be hugely unbalanced. It's discouraging to see "block block block block block" show up while you're wailing away, but if those blocks weren't there, you could never keep a team up.

I guess, if it was an avenue you wanted to pursue, we could look at toning down block (or tone up anti-block), but then we'd have to tone down physicals, and then you'd never be able to spike down a target with physicals, so we'd have to tone down anti-spike, and then caster spike would be overpowered, so we'd have to nerf dozens and dozens of caster skills (at least), and... I think you can see where this is going.

Vanquisher · Jan 14, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Can you tell at which skills you are looking then? Since the main offense comes from the same sources as it did years ago. There are more options (dervishes, assassins, paragons) but in most builds the main difference is the paragon. On the other side Anet has completely killed energy denial. So are you suggesting some major nerfs to the spear attacks/damage? Or would you rather go after the (axe) warrior?

Paragons ability to deal out decent amount of damage without losing the utility or defence that would have been taken before.
Mesmer interrupts on super charged recharges.
Powerful tools like Splinter Weapon/Ancestor's Rage available.
Ranger interrupts are still slightly too good (8r, 12r on Savage / Distracting).

And;

Allowance to run Monks that are adept at keeping themselves and others alive, though remain susceptible to good forms of shutdown (pretty much what Boon Prots were before, for some stupid reason, they were nerfed out of gameplay).

The current Monks are a problem with the offensive punishment that needs to be seen. I expressed it the wrong way before, so you're gonna have to get over the poor choice of wording and lack of clarity. Monks such as those in todays game climate can't deal with the offensive options available. This gives the options to either buff Monks to a reasonable level, or tone down offense to a level at which those Monks can deal with them. I targetted offense because of Paragons and Mesmer interrupts, as I think that regardless of changes to Monks those still have to be looked at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

In the nicest way possible, if unblockable attacks were easily accessible and successful, people would be running them. If people stopped running them, there just may be a reason.

Way of the Fox gives you enough unblockable attacks for one adren. unload, possibly with an attack or two left over if you spec'ed high enough. One unblockable unload every 45 seconds... Not absolutely terrible, but one serious threat every 45 seconds probably isn't going to be anything gamebreaking, and it means giving up a skill slot.

Warrior's Cunning is up for 10 seconds, which is nice, but it's on a 60s recharge. ~16% uptime. Maybe it's just me, but that rubs me the wrong way.

There are, of course, other options. The SA sin combo is unblockable, but without anti-melee hexes, Sins are dangerous on the front line of a stand team (especially without effective party-healing), and SA sins aren't exactly built for the split. Fox's Promise has nice uptime, but it can only be used on a Sin, so you'd have to find a way to fit the sin into a balanced build. If you could get Rigor Mortis to stick, it'd be great, but HEV eats hex teams alive (literally).

Basically, physicals are powerful, but they're fairly easy to counter with blocking. If unblockable attacks were effective, blocking would be pointless, and the game would be hugely unbalanced. It's discouraging to see "block block block block block" show up while you're wailing away, but if those blocks weren't there, you could never keep a team up.

I guess, if it was an avenue you wanted to pursue, we could look at toning down block (or tone up anti-block), but then we'd have to tone down physicals, and then you'd never be able to spike down a target with physicals, so we'd have to tone down anti-spike, and then caster spike would be overpowered, so we'd have to nerf dozens and dozens of caster skills (at least), and... I think you can see where this is going.

Unblockable attacks, other than Irresistable Blow, have almost always been bad. The thing is, if you have the tools to make sure you get a spike through, regardless of if you are going into every game with the intention of spiking only, you're putting yourself at a much greater advantage than not having those tools. 1 spike in 60 seconds is all you need to win the game. If it's well timed it can give you the break that you need (Base Res Monk, kill Flagger and bounce it). You're almost always going to get some sort of position game from a kill, and, in a strictly historical view, a single kill would result in strong shutdown post-res. Kill Monk, switch to other, disable when ressed, you've got a chain kill. People underestimate the kind of power that can be gained from killing at a crucial time. Offensive pushes are one of the best things Guild Wars has, as it can really show two teams bouncing the advantage between them, coming back and countering, etc.

Neo-LD · Jan 14, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'd much rather see nerfs to the offensive side of this game that gives the need to run the amount of defence in builds than just the defence, but that's unlikely to happen outside of a few changes to things like Ancestor's / Splinter. I'd also like to see buffs to window creating skills like Blackout, and I'd definately like to see nerfs to interrupts. Sure, defensive skills may need a bit of downgrading too, but I like teams needing to coordinate well to score kills, and play well to avoid them. (Undoubtedly people will see this as just promoting spike, but realistically with decent balance changes to both sides it should encourage more coordinated shutdown play from the midline, that doesn't simply involve needing to have a good computer and connection to the server).

I agree. It has been shown that nerfing defense just amplifies the problem by forcing people to take more of it in order to survive. However, if we do the opposite (nerf offense), then theoretically, teams so dedicated to defense wouldnt be able to kill anything, and therefore they would replace defense with offense to compensate. Thats what we want, right?

DutchSmurf · Jan 15, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

However, if we do the opposite (nerf offense), then theoretically, teams so dedicated to defense wouldnt be able to kill anything, and therefore they would replace defense with offense to compensate.

Or they wait until VoD when their damage will get high enough. While the lower offense on the other side makes it a lot easier to avoid kills for them.

erk · Jan 15, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I agree. It has been shown that nerfing defense just amplifies the problem by forcing people to take more of it in order to survive. However, if we do the opposite (nerf offense), then theoretically, teams so dedicated to defense wouldnt be able to kill anything, and therefore they would replace defense with offense to compensate. Thats what we want, right?

Ultimately it's a battle between the damage being taken vs the healing you can sustain before the healers energy runs out. Taking more defense is just a way of compensating for the reduced healing since the LoD nerf, by reducing the healing requirement.

I don't thing people like playing defense bars, if the had their choice they would go for healing or damage instead, for more player satisfaction.

Spamming Aegis chains or wards is not very stimulating for those that have to do it. But chipping in on a clean spike, or a smart prot/heal/interrupt are feel good things.

s w o r d y · Jan 15, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Or they wait until VoD when their damage will get high enough. While the lower offense on the other side makes it a lot easier to avoid kills for them.

i've always wondered if vod would be more interesting with just the health loss and not the damage buff

Cass · Jan 15, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Paragons ability to deal out decent amount of damage without losing the utility or defence that would have been taken before.
Mesmer interrupts on super charged recharges.
Powerful tools like Splinter Weapon/Ancestor's Rage available.
Ranger interrupts are still slightly too good (8r, 12r on Savage / Distracting).

And;

Allowance to run Monks that are adept at keeping themselves and others alive, though remain susceptible to good forms of shutdown (pretty much what Boon Prots were before, for some stupid reason, they were nerfed out of gameplay).

The current Monks are a problem with the offensive punishment that needs to be seen. I expressed it the wrong way before, so you're gonna have to get over the poor choice of wording and lack of clarity. Monks such as those in todays game climate can't deal with the offensive options available. This gives the options to either buff Monks to a reasonable level, or tone down offense to a level at which those Monks can deal with them. I targetted offense because of Paragons and Mesmer interrupts, as I think that regardless of changes to Monks those still have to be looked at.

I can't quite follow the logic of why you want interrupts nerfed. I may be an interrupt fanboy though. Interrupts are an amazing aspect of GW and a large part of why it is such a dynamic game. They are also one of the few types of skill that are actually a challenge to use effectively. Stale gameplay is exactly what would result if effective and dangerous interrupts are nerfed beyond usefulness.

Now to the real argument: It's more an issue of weakness of the 2 monk backline, as witnessed by the silly power of stupid stuff like heroway. Simple pressure overwhelms monks easily, and pressure typically takes much less skill to generate. In my view, it is fully acceptable to take a setback if your monk is getting powerleaked several times in quick succession (cancelling ftw btw). This is skilled play IMO and a fairly rare occurence anyway. Interrupts create a window of opportunity, much like diversion, there's nothing wrong with that.

As for paragons; this is just a brainless class almost beyond fixing IMO. Ranged spears mean you don't even have to position yourself much at all to just T-spike targets. Partywide shouts require no targeting, just spam on recharge. Suddenly you have too much time on your hands and this is where some teams take powerspike /-return. I don't like this much (perhaps this is also part of your beef with interrupts?), but it's more an issue of the paragon being so damn easy to play than anything else. Maybe paragons could be reworked to require more single-target casting...