Curse

moriz · Nov 19, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

the "i killed u guud" character
the majority of builds in AB tends to consist of these ones. such builds are often played by players who have little knowledge/regard for the workings of AB, and are just there to kill (although there are exceptions). assassins, warriors, and dervishes tend to fall into this category.

Quote:

Profession: A/

oops, looks like i touched a nerve.

truth is biased in nature. no matter whose opinion you base it on, it will always favour one side over the others. in this case, it's pretty much an established truth that kill-type characters have fairly limited roles. like the common foot soldier, their collective effect on the battlefield is huge. however, their individual contributions (and thus maximum influence) are low.

just about every character type (with the exception of tanks and minion masters) have a role in AB. it's just a matter of how important that roles is. for example, you can have an assassin that clears out opponents on the way to the shrines, and an ele that can clear the shrines so they can cap it. unfortunately, a single shutdown/disruption character can render both completely useless.

fireflyry · Nov 19, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

lol...Nah...I still find your guide overly opinionated and subjective.

It has nothing to do with touching a nerve as I have a main of every class but Paragon yet was playing majority Sin when, and since, joining here.

I have vastly more experience on Warriors, Monks, Rangers, Necromancers and Mesmers than the Assassin but I'm just bored of those classes after 2+ years hence I seldom play them now and my statements were aimed at your guide in totality, not the relevance to my given Guru profile main.

Don't get me wrong, you have some great....GREAT.....points that everyone should know but again the "How To Properly Play Alliance Battles" title just seems wrong to me as it's really only your view, not the meta or bible, and the concept of "maximum influence" seems highly flawed to me.

A good four Sin or Warrior spike team can blow your "maximum influence" concept right out of the water.

It's just one given game style out of a multitude of opinions, possibilities and scenarios.All I'm saying is there is no one way to play and your guide seems to attempt generalizing and simplifying the scenario of AB into a few select and subjective rules and preferred team builds when there are logically a multitude of other ways to play which can be as, if not more, effective in an AB round win.

I merely differ in thought and opinion to the simplification and effectiveness of such a mentality and play style in AB.

Your also using 1 v 1 scenarios to justify the importance of a shutdown/disruption build....umm yeah.

Anyway I again enjoyed reading your guide but felt you would be open to others thoughts and critique.

Take it easy.

Alex Morningstar · Nov 19, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Normally I'd agree, and say that opinionated pieces are generally worthwhile to the eye of the beholder... but;

With the state AB is in now with the typical casual players you will find in AB (Pugs, btw. This does not apply to guild groups, I would hope), you have to be opinionated. You go to district one of whatever map you are in and you have 10 people looking for a group and not one of them will have any leadership skills. They join any group, which is fine, but once in-game, they do whatever they want. Which is not. If AB was meant for solo players, it wouldn't have a 4/4 party size requirement.

Once in the game, more often then not they split up and mob. Once killed, they spawn and head straight back to the spot they died. The reasons vary, vengence, one track mind, whatever. Either way, they throw themselves at mobs, they don't spend time capping at all. The other team wins. Teammates usually spend that last 100 faction cussing and whining about how they suck and whose fault it is.

I seriously just finished a game with a kid who started cussing about how no one capped when everytime he died, it was at the feet of the same damn MM in the same damn spot.

So yeah, if you want AB to change, people need to step up and go "hey look, this is going to be how we do it this time" and then do it.

Syntonic · Nov 19, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

If AB were really to change, those 4 player groups should probably be handled like in TA. That's a rather impossible request though since it'd probably kill off a lot of the interest in AB as relatively relaxed PvP setting. It would be best to have two tiers of AB but unfortunately, players are spread out enough as it is making this also a poor choice of routes. People have to wait on the timer enough as it is at times.

king of killers · Dec 01, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

its more about killing to me because i find myself 4 against 8 and i kill off about 3 of them the rest is to my party... and whats is a mm's influence?
i use the ranger/paragon build with bleeding, a crippling spear, and a pet with poison and disruption along with heal as one

Sakura Az · Dec 01, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

If AB were really to change, those 4 player groups should probably be handled like in TA. That's a rather impossible request though since it'd probably kill off a lot of the interest in AB as relatively relaxed PvP setting. It would be best to have two tiers of AB but unfortunately, players are spread out enough as it is making this also a poor choice of routes. People have to wait on the timer enough as it is at times.

finding a team that does go with a specific style/build for the team helps a ton. recently i've been playing with a small group of people who run a bonder, fire ele, and either 2 sins or a sin and a ranger. everything works perfectly, we cap, we can hold our own against attackers we communicate, we run from the mob because fighting the mob is pointless when the goal of the game is to cap shrines.

that being said since we require everyone to ping when they join, we have lost about half of the people that try to join because they refuse to ping.

wuzzman · Dec 01, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Isn't AB running around in circles faster then the other team?

MasterSasori · Dec 04, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakura Az

finding a team that does go with a specific style/build for the team helps a ton. recently i've been playing with a small group of people who run a bonder, fire ele, and either 2 sins or a sin and a ranger. everything works perfectly, we cap, we can hold our own against attackers we communicate, we run from the mob because fighting the mob is pointless when the goal of the game is to cap shrines.

that being said since we require everyone to ping when they join, we have lost about half of the people that try to join because they refuse to ping.

I can't stress enough the importance of teamwork in AB. AB shouldn't be a mass of random builds functioning in some chaotic mass.

On your optimal team however, I have a few changes. First is that I would use 2 elementalists instead of 1 simply because it caps faster and your team will not be hampered greatly if 1 were to be lost.

Second is the usefulness of the healer. Let me defend my opinion: It really depends on the skill of the monk to keep up with the team and surviving, more so than most other classes. In addition, should your team be relatively good at surviving, they may not be necessary and may even slow you down when capping or maximum influence/DPS for your team. Lastly, if separated, must follow another group or get back to team quickly in order to be useful. This isn't always the situation, but there may be times healer might not be the best choice.

Choice of Sin or Ranger depends on what the other side is playing.

bungusmaximus · Dec 04, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I can't stress enough the importance of teamwork in AB. AB shouldn't be a mass of random builds functioning in some chaotic mass.

On your optimal team however, I have a few changes. First is that I would use 2 elementalists instead of 1 simply because it caps faster and your team will not be hampered greatly if 1 were to be lost.

Second is the usefulness of the healer. Let me defend my opinion: It really depends on the skill of the monk to keep up with the team and surviving, more so than most other classes. In addition, should your team be relatively good at surviving, they may not be necessary and may even slow you down when capping or maximum influence/DPS for your team. Lastly, if separated, must follow another group or get back to team quickly in order to be useful. This isn't always the situation, but there may be times healer might not be the best choice.

Choice of Sin or Ranger depends on what the other side is playing.

2 eles without monk isn't exactly my idea of survivability. Eles also have a hard time effectively killing stuff, assassins are usually better at it. With the huge amount of spellcasters in AB dropping the ranger is folly, especially since rangers are very mobile and splittable.

A good monk prevents the team from falling apart, 4 damage dealers, well, do more damage, both are a fair choice imho.

MasterSasori · Dec 04, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

2 eles without monk isn't exactly my idea of survivability. Eles also have a hard time effectively killing stuff, assassins are usually better at it. With the huge amount of spellcasters in AB dropping the ranger is folly, especially since rangers are very mobile and splittable.

A good monk prevents the team from falling apart, 4 damage dealers, well, do more damage, both are a fair choice imho.

Eles having problems killing stuff? This shouldn't be a problem if they pack Mystic Regen and/or Aura of Restoration and not the center of target for multiple foes. This also depends if you think nukers should cast a slow, AoE effect such as Meteor Storm on a single target.

They shouldn't be leading the battle and should keep and eye out for sins, rangers, and certain mesmers/necromancers.

And of course an Air Elementalist that can't kill stuff? (There are some that go conditional support: KD, blind, ect.)

As for ranger, they aren't exactly the best cappers but they are incredible against spellcasters. However, if the other group is using less spellcasters and soft targets, you should consider the usefulness. It's never a bad choice, but its not always the best. And as I said before, I don't agree with splitting teams.

bungusmaximus · Dec 04, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

If you don't take your fire ele to vaporize shrines there's much better options available, such as a nasty axe warrior that tears players apart in 1 good combo. Eles are awesome support units though, and they are bloody fast too. But you will need 1 character with the necessary punch to score kills fast.

Rangers are one of the less proffessions that can cap every shrine alone, it just takes ages. A cripshot ranger isn't just good against casters, but also against melee, and there's enough rangers that can reliably interrupt asssassin attacks. Rangers are versatile, and that's a big pro in an arena where you can expect anything.

MasterSasori · Dec 04, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

If you don't take your fire ele to vaporize shrines there's much better options available, such as a nasty axe warrior that tears players apart in 1 good combo...

I'll have to see this axe warrior to decide this. On the most part, if you need a profession to tear apart someone quickly, Sins are more than able to do the job.

A nasty Rodgort's Invocation or Searing Flame does the trick when tearing apart builds, so long as you don't expect as mass AoE effect to wipe them out.

Keekles · Dec 05, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I personally enjoy playing an axe warrior in ABs. The only people that I kill in one combo are the people who bring 2 superiors and end up under half health after eviscerate and die once executioners lands.

The group that I usually play with is something like this: Warrior, Ele (fire, shrine cleaner), Monk. The last one is either a warrior, another ele, or a cripshot.

YAA + Eviscerate is fun, Eviscerate + blind-bot with gale is fun.

wuzzman · Dec 05, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Any decent fire ele can wipe out a shrine in 10 seconds tops.

MasterSasori · Dec 05, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Any decent fire ele can wipe out a shrine in 10 seconds tops.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of some-what decent fire eles that may take almost 12-15 seconds depending on the conditions when they arrive at the shrine, assuming there are no enemies that may hinder them.

Teh Uber Pwnzer · Jan 04, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Assuming four shrines: 4 shrines = 4 points every 7 seconds. 500 points = 875 seconds (or about 14.6 minutes). If you were to hold one shrine and just attempt to slaughter, you would need to get about 8.6 kills a minute to tie with just holding shrines. If you consider that killing somebody takes them out of the game for around 20 seconds (thus greatly increasing your "maximum influence"), slaughtering isn't near as bad as you make it out to be. Also, like Mana said, an intelligent team won't just kill, they'll cap as well, and a single generic nuker is more than enough to do just that. What I'm trying to say, is that if your intelligent, you wont always avoid all fighting, as its a way to score many points thus making the game shorter.

SilentNite · Jan 04, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I do see moriz' point here in that capping is important, and this helps newcomers who often see this as one GIANT killfest. I do aggre with others in that these proffession rankings are quite biased. It honestly depends on what proffession your best with. I've seen warr's (not tanks) be able to take out entire groups of 3-4. Considering them useless is not the correct statement here. Good effort though in puting this together and explaining some of the basic elements in AB.

Bobby2 · Jan 05, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

every character type (with the exception of tanks and minion masters) have a role in AB. it's just a matter of how important that roles is.

As long as there are stupid people in AB (...) tanks and (resilient - read AotL/MRegen) MMs will be worth their weight in gold.

moriz · Jan 05, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Uber Pwnzer

Assuming four shrines: 4 shrines = 4 points every 7 seconds. 500 points = 875 seconds (or about 14.6 minutes). If you were to hold one shrine and just attempt to slaughter, you would need to get about 8.6 kills a minute to tie with just holding shrines. If you consider that killing somebody takes them out of the game for around 20 seconds (thus greatly increasing your "maximum influence"), slaughtering isn't near as bad as you make it out to be. Also, like Mana said, an intelligent team won't just kill, they'll cap as well, and a single generic nuker is more than enough to do just that. What I'm trying to say, is that if your intelligent, you wont always avoid all fighting, as its a way to score many points thus making the game shorter.

if you (or your entire side) ever somehow manage to kill 8.6 players a minute, consistently throughout an entire game, i'll donate a kidney.

combined with the size of AB maps, and the fact that it takes 20 seconds to rez, you will run out of targets long before you reach the 8.6 kills a minute mark. it's impossible, so don't even suggest it.

Edge Martinez · Jan 06, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

[skill]Glyph Of Energy[/skill][skill]Maelstrom[/skill]

very usful for capping and does not require any attributes

=]

makes all the shrines but the ranger and warrior ones usless

Even a W/E could run this ^^

I'm surprised this isn't done more. When we get 4 friends together, this is our build of choice. 1 */E running those two skills, and 3 Assassins. The Ele shrines really aren't a problem and we cap fast with the 4 "i kill you guud" toons. Other groups go down quick too.