Curse

Akaraxle · Jan 28, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

When the better team wins, it was a triumph of the better team and proof that skill triumphs. When the weaker team wins, it's because the gayed out the better team.

If both teams are honest about their prospects, the above is a common feeling because it is true.

It's simple. If you are the better team in a match, you want the game to come down to player skill. You want controlled variables and controlled environments where you play better than your opponent and gain your advantages to win consistently. This is what the best teams do when they win.

If you are the weaker team in a match, you do not want the game to come down to player skill - you will lose! Your best play is to inject as much randomness into the game as you can. It makes so much more sense to gamble on buildwars, playing something random that they might be unable to deal with but more likely they'll just punch in the face. It will dramatically increase your chance of winning.

From the perspective of getting better at playing the game, doing nothing but playing gimmicks will likely hurt you long term; you won't develop the tactical awareness and flexibility that you'll need to beat down weaker players than yourself. But for one match, against one opponent, with money on the line? If you don't like your chances and you're not trying to randomly buildwars out your opponent you aren't trying.

Why do you think iQ ran so much random shit in Germany? All of our matches were against teams that were better than us at playing Guild Wars, so we made builds and strategies that minimized being good at Guild Wars and maximized getting lucky at Build Wars. If we 'played honorably' in game 3 against EvIL they would have kicked our asses all over the map. But instead we played the most flamingly homosexual strategy in the history of Guild Wars, camping the boat and walking the lord...and it worked. We needed to get lucky to win, so we played the builds that gave us the best chance of getting lucky...and enough of it worked out for us to far exceed expectations in that tournament.

I'd like to quote this and express my kudos to Ensign, it takes balls to admit something like the underlined part.

red orc · Jan 28, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Yeah there's clear similarities between bridge and GW, although personally I find GW to be more similar to checkers..

Wtf kind of retarded analogy is this?

In bridge, there is supposed to be an element of luck. However when you see high end bridge game, there is no luck involved. A good player will play the hand delt and win, reducing the luck factor to almost none. While bad players will loose a hand and say "they got lucky". In GW, however, the luck factor is almost none existing, and seeing high end players say "they got lucky", is just ....

Killed u man · Jan 28, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

WHY did they nerf "Fear Me!"? It wasn't even a dominant build anymore...

WHY doesn't Izzy do is job correctly in the least bit? ALL he has to do, is deliver a somewhat decent balance once a month... (Or 6 months)

Yes, I stress ALL, because face it, skill balancing is conciderably easy when U have about 20 thread in a major fansite...

Let's see what he missed this time:

RA: Strangly enough, it's somewhat balanced, there isn't really 1 build that will guarantee you 10 cons...

TA: Shove Spike, tome the current W,R,[Caster],Mo build won a bit, there is no room for any different balance, because Magebane > ALL in TA...

HB: Shadow Melt, Recall (Revert 10 second disable, inscrease recharge to around 30-45 secs), Falling Ox combo, try and upgrade hero AI on bsurge/clumsiness, so heroes can actually active shut down a sin...

HA: Heroway is problem, Migraine needs to be tomed down (90% of the time you see Migraine in HoH), Splinter/A-rage still is redicilous, A/x, x/A jump spikes need to be tomed down AND obviously rspike: Nerf Brutal...

GvG: Meh, don't care enough about GvG to balance it, there is to much QQ'ing about it anyway...

Meh, Izzy, I hope Anet doesn't pay you...

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

In bridge, there is supposed to be an element of luck. However when you see high end bridge game, there is no luck involved. A good player will play the hand delt and win, reducing the luck factor to almost none. While bad players will loose a hand and say "they got lucky". In GW, however, the luck factor is almost none existing, and seeing high end players say "they got lucky", is just ....

There is most definately a luck factor in GW as a lot of things are based on percentages and stuff like attacks have variables, of course in most games stuff like that will rarely be deciding, but if someone hits through guardian 5 times in a row without having some anti block skill then he definately got 'lucky'.

The type of lucky ensign was describing was more of the 'hoping an opponent will make a mistake which you can then capitalise on' type of luck, that coupled with NPC behaviour, which is also luck to an extend because getting a good ball on NPCs doesn't always work out equally well.

Anyway luck isn't the point here, the assassin split relies on certain game mechanics (mainly shadowstepping and to a lesser extent bypassing block) as well as certain skills (siphon speed and to a lesser extent clumsiness and ineptitude) being 'broken'.

You could say that sin splits take advantage of people running a not so mobile variant of 'balanced' at the moment however that is largely the case, because izzy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up party healing by nerfing LoD and leaving nothing (but SoR/Mending Refrain) to fill the void.

This means that you either lose out on party healing (this will break you up more often than not vs other balanced teams) or you lose a lot of build variety because you're pretty much required to run a 'Partygon' and a Rit flagger.

Sin split is perfectly beatable in it's current form (though I've got to admit I haven't played against Mistral Edge recently), but the fact remains that it's much too effective for the amount of skill and coordination it takes to run.

red orc · Jan 28, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Sin split is perfectly beatable in it's current form (though I've got to admit I haven't played against Mistral Edge recently), but the fact remains that it's much too effective for the amount of skill and coordination it takes to run.

It's not that I like sinptitude, nor going to run it. I just think that running it certainly takes more skill than running that paragon. I think you would agree with me on this. Mending refrains, Watchyourslf, ....
I just want to see this kind of builds and 8*8 only flagstand fights go away and want to see a more dynamic game.
Current meta is like playing football (real football, not the american) with 10 ppl at the goal line and one trying to score, ending 0:0. Just plain ugly.

Riotgear · Jan 28, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quick reminder, if you disagree with someone, there are plenty of ways to prove them wrong or re-assert your position other than flaming them. Thanks!

Anyway, as far as the "luck" factor: Balanced tends to be fairly consistent and is prepared to deal with most threats as well as its players allow. Trying to Build Wars an opponent means placing a sort of bet that they're not going to prepare for one specific thing, or they're going to be overly reliant on one specific thing, and throwing all of your chips on that.

However, the problem with that is simple: If your opponent enters the game planning to run a different strategy, you're screwed.

In a way, it punishes tactical inflexibility, but ideally tactical inflexibility should be punished by exploiting it in-game with superior play rather than an intractable decision made beforehand.

Quote:

It's not that I like sinptitude, nor going to run it. I just think that running it certainly takes more skill than running that paragon.

Metabalanced has one really brainless character, Sineptitude has five.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

It's not that I like sinptitude, nor going to run it. I just think that running it certainly takes more skill than running that paragon. I think you would agree with me on this. Mending refrains, Watchyourslf, ....

While the partygon is definately not the epitome of skill, I'd say it's a lot more 'interesting' template than any of the templates in the current sineptitude build.

It provides defense, party healing and still has a decent damage output, whereas sins and ineptitude mesmers are a lot more one dimensional.

Quote:

I just want to see this kind of builds and 8*8 only flagstand fights go away and want to see a more dynamic game.
Current meta is like playing football (real football, not the american) with 10 ppl at the goal line and one trying to score, ending 0:0. Just plain ugly.

The reason for this is the lack of party healing and necessity of splinter weapon, as well as the NPCs on crack that got introduced by the latest update.

wuzzman · Jan 28, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

there was even more defense during the lod age....

Cass · Jan 28, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

NPC damage boost is poorly implemented IMO.

It is laughable that the damage boost ramps up so quickly, without any limit. The importance of the NPCs has gone through the roof to the extent that at 20 mins an Archer is a bigger threat than the enemy frontline. This has only raised the importance of VoD further.

It needs to ramp a little slower but most of all the damage should be capped at +33% or so.

Also, is the Guild Lord's movement no longer tied to that of the opponent? In a recent game we aggroed the opposing Lord, only to find ours rampaging towards the stand and the army that stood there...

Captain Robo · Jan 28, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

I'd make a strong comparison between the modern motigon and the Ritual Lord ritualist from Factions-era.

Thing is, Ritual Lord got atom-smashed with the nerfbat. Why isn't the same happening to the motigon?

Even if motivation has been nerfed into the ground numerous times, I don't think anyone would miss it. This, however, would leave a party-healing vacuum.

I'm beginning to side with the people who think this game cannot be balanced.

Riotgear · Jan 28, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Also, is the Guild Lord's movement no longer tied to that of the opponent? In a recent game we aggroed the opposing Lord, only to find ours rampaging towards the stand and the army that stood there...

They just updated it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Thing is, Ritual Lord got atom-smashed with the nerfbat. Why isn't the same happening to the motigon?

Paragons have served roughly the same role as spirit spammers, only with more offense. Nerf calls for Shields Up have been out there for quite some time. I think the entire class is one of the worst things for GvG lately. However, motigons are a significantly weaker template, most teams would rather NOT run one, but because LoD got hammered, they have no choice.

JR · Jan 28, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I'm beginning to side with the people who think this game cannot be balanced.

Izzy just needs to realize that sometimes you need to settle with the lesser of two evils. In this case that is LoD.

Akaraxle · Jan 28, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

there was even more defense during the lod age....

Which is even more proof that the problem wasn't LoD, don't you agree?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

there was even more defense during the lod age....

Not really, you just had a lot more options, and the most defensive one (rawr's build) is pretty much unchanged, except they changed from a blockagon to a partygon and now run a rit runner.

wuzzman · Jan 28, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

players looking for a scape goat for a reason why this meta is so stale is attempting desperately to attach the fragility of the LoD bar to the stability of the meta. Really only thing that will happen once LoD is brought back is that mesmers will carry sig of humility or start spamming diversion.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

players looking for a scape goat for a reason why this meta is so stale is attempting desperately to attach the fragility of the LoD bar to the stability of the meta. Really only thing that will happen once LoD is brought back is that mesmers will carry sig of humility or start spamming diversion.

Humility is quite easy to deal with and mesmers already do spam diversion.

I don't really care about LoD, I just want a viable alternative so I don't have to run some dumb partygon.

ensoriki · Jan 28, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

So much hate on Paragon healing >.>
Why not Paragons have standing for party healing? Atleast it fits their support role mentality.

This is to say that the way they heal should be changed/improved.

Kaon · Jan 28, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

If lod would be buffed right now i'd still run a partygon and WoH. The former is a ridiculously overpowered template, the latter a ridiculously overpowered skill.

But yes, it would allow for more variation if you really wanted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

So much hate on Paragon healing >.>
Why not Paragons have standing for party healing? Atleast it fits their support role mentality.

This is to say that the way they heal should be changed/improved.

Because paragons are boring linear one dimensional game deteriorating characters. Sure this new incarnation actually requires you to do stuff but after a few days playing it's already automized buttonsmash.

Next to the fact that a spear deals more damage than a sword or axe while being a ranged weapon.

ensoriki · Jan 28, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Next to the fact that a spear deals more damage than a sword or axe while being a ranged weapon.

I still don't understand why A-net made it that way.
Why are spears that good when they don't need to be?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 28, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

So much hate on Paragon healing >.>
Why not Paragons have standing for party healing? Atleast it fits their support role mentality.

This is to say that the way they heal should be changed/improved.

I don't hate paragon healing as such, I hate how you're limited to it in the current meta.