Curse

NamelessBeauty · Feb 05, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

It's powerful. Yes I agree. But does it Over-POWERFUL? No, why do you want to change a skill that do nothing bad to the PvP/PvE atm? Yes this skill is good but:
1. Can you use it as your main running skill? No? Why? Because it's dumb using it for relic run.
2. Can you use it to keep target in AoE? No? Because 33% slow isn't that much of a deal. Most snare = 50%+ slow.
3. Does it deal any dmg when you use? No? Because it's a pure hex.
4. Does it make AoE of any type? No? It's a hex for a single target.
5. Can it be used effective for melee since it's half range? No! Because it will lacks of energy management. When playing melee, you don't want to oh hey let me stop and cast this 1s spell. You want a stance or 1/4s cast (Storm Djinn)
6. There are more I believe which I can not think of right now!

To be honest Grasping Earth is a much better choice due to its AoE hex and 50% slow. Yes it's not half range but AoE and slow target more!

Note: As far as I know, it's only be used in the N/A as a snare skill. But I only see Red run it often. In GvG, some use it but most prefer better snare than this hex.

newbie_of_doom · Feb 07, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

7. I herd hex removal is good.

Riotgear · Feb 07, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty

Yes this skill is good but:
blah blah

You're essentially ignoring the tactical usage that snares and speed boosts have in general. Melee does most of the heavy-lifting in most builds, and movement speed plays a crucial role in how they are able to engage their targets. Nobody's using Siphon Speed to trap people in Savannah Heat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

7. I herd hex removal is good.

I herd Siphon Speed is extremely spammable.

Bobby2 · Feb 07, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Riot I understand your point but this is where 1s cast and half-range REALLY hurt. Of course it's horribly powerful in AB, where a whole mob can suddenly catch up to the guy kiting them and ^%*$%^$& move on.

In TA, it's far less powerful, and in RA it's a wasted slot as positioning doesn't seem to matter

With what little GvG experience I have I think it's safe to say that while the effect is powerful in the format, it's also a very dangerous skill to use. Once a Ranger gets a hold of you and your tactics you might well find your Siphon with a 25 second recharge

NamelessBeauty · Feb 07, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You're essentially ignoring the tactical usage that snares and speed boosts have in general. Melee does most of the heavy-lifting in most builds, and movement speed plays a crucial role in how they are able to engage their targets. Nobody's using Siphon Speed to trap people in Savannah Heat.

I herd Siphon Speed is extremely spammable.

You surely play melee really little. You know melee problem is the ENERGY right? Spam it in your DREAM. You may say, how about Grasping Earth? Oh wait, it's AoE snare (hexes vs hex? remove more than 1 hex?) and it's fast cast AND it lasts almost twice as long. Beside a stance is MUCH better. Oh you may say use a stance to boost attack speed instead. Sorry it's NOT realistic to waste 1s casting a spell then run to the target. Use a stance and kill the target. It's not going to happen as you think like that. Go and try. Thanks!

Note: Sorry but I gonna break your concept. Melee DOES not deal the most dmg. The FIRE Eles does. Indeed, in most case Melee deal the least dmg on spike due to the massive and easiness of blocking. Spells = you CAN NOT block. And spell CAN NOT be predicted to who it gonna attack.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 07, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty

Sorry but I gonna break your concept. Melee DOES not deal the most dmg. The FIRE Eles does. Indeed, in most case Melee deal the least dmg on spike due to the massive and easiness of blocking. Spells = you CAN NOT block. And spell CAN NOT be predicted to who it gonna attack.

You don't know anything about what you're talking about.

But I don't think that siphon speed is that big of a deal. If a melee sits around spamming a 1-sec cast I'm really fine with that most of the time, as that's time the melee isn't spending beating my face in. Of course, there are other situations that it can be problematic in, so I wouldn't be opposed to a couple seconds increase to the recharge.

Kyp Jade · Feb 07, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty

You surely play melee really little. You know melee problem is the ENERGY right? Spam it in your DREAM. You may say, how about Grasping Earth? Oh wait, it's AoE snare (hexes vs hex? remove more than 1 hex?) and it's fast cast AND it lasts almost twice as long. Beside a stance is MUCH better. Oh you may say use a stance to boost attack speed instead. Sorry it's NOT realistic to waste 1s casting a spell then run to the target. Use a stance and kill the target. It's not going to happen as you think like that. Go and try. Thanks!

Note: Sorry but I gonna break your concept. Melee DOES not deal the most dmg. The FIRE Eles does. Indeed, in most case Melee deal the least dmg on spike due to the massive and easiness of blocking. Spells = you CAN NOT block. And spell CAN NOT be predicted to who it gonna attack.

I think you just destroyed all of your credibility with th is post.

Melee: Warrior, Cannot spam siphon, but why would it want to when it possesses tools like bulls strike?

Melee: Sins/Dervishes, can definatly spam siphon till thier internet connection dies. Does this happen? Yes it does, all the time in fact. I would assume your speaking of HA as you say fire eles do the damage, if your not then maybe your playing in a really fail gvg team that needs better warriors

If your in HA, siphon is a really shit snare to keep someone in aoe, use fburst or deep freeze or earthshaker.

Siphon Speeds Power, is that it has all the advantages of freezing gust, but for half the energy. On an HA relic run, if you are not disrupted, you can get ahead of the monks removal with siphon speed alone, allowing the more powerful snares to stick even longer if you choose to bring them.

In HA, where the major damage comes from DERVISHES for fire ele spikes, siphon speed makes life o so much easier for the prot monks, and even the entire team if they know how to pre kite. Really takes no effort at all to click on your subtarget, and hit siphon to reapply the snare for little to no energy cost on a caster.

Dont even kid yourself that fire eles do more damage on a spike than a dervish will. Fire eles do not, i repeat DO NOT supply deep wound.

****The only time fire eles do more damage than melee is when you are using them to punish really shit positioning that you see all the time in bad teams.*****

Bobby2 · Feb 08, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

But I don't think that siphon speed is that big of a deal. If a melee sits around spamming a 1-sec cast I'm really fine with that most of the time, as that's time the melee isn't spending beating my face in. Of course, there are other situations that it can be problematic in, so I wouldn't be opposed to a couple seconds increase to the recharge.

Gives me something to do while my chain recharges... though again, 1s cast! Ppl should stop whining

Riotgear · Feb 08, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty

You surely play melee really little. You know melee problem is the ENERGY right?

Only on a warrior, the original Sineptitude ran Siphon Speed on a D/A and the new one ran it on all of the Assassins. Both can afford it pretty easily.

Quote:

Sorry it's NOT realistic to waste 1s casting a spell then run to the target.

It is realistic to dump it on something that needs to be snared, and run wherever you need to go. Nothing forces you to chase down the Siphon target specifically.

Quote:

Note: Sorry but I gonna break your concept. Melee DOES not deal the most dmg. The FIRE Eles does.

I'm speaking primarily of its GvG effects, and to a lesser extent, its HB effects. In GvG, melee is THE standard for making things die. In HB, Assassins are too good, and Siphon Speed is a large part of why.

Dominator1370 · Feb 08, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty

When playing melee, you don't want to oh hey let me stop and cast this 1s spell.

1. Get in range
2. You begin casting, your target continues running
3. You cast, the target is a handful of steps ahead, but you run 66%(?) faster than them

...am I missing something?

and then there's the fact that you run 33% faster than anyone on the other team who isn't in a speed boost, and your target runs at least 33% slower than the rest of your team (assuming they aren't in a speed boost of their own). Not bad for a spamable 5e spell.

Does this make it overpowered? I don't know. Maybe. Should we look at it, see "1s cast time", think to ourselves "there's no way a 1s cast time could possibly be useful on a melee", and go on our merry way? Probably not.

Bobby2 · Feb 08, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

1. Get in range
2. You begin casting, your target continues running
3. You cast, the target is a handful of steps ahead, but you run 66%(?) faster than them

...am I missing something?

Ya, the target runs at 67%, you at 133%; so that's twice as fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

and then there's the fact that you run 33% faster than anyone on the other team who isn't in a speed boost, and your target runs at least 33% slower than the rest of your team (assuming they aren't in a speed boost of their own). Not bad for a spamable 5e spell.

Agreed. It's a very good skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Does this make it overpowered? I don't know. Maybe. Should we look at it, see "1s cast time", think to ourselves "there's no way a 1s cast time could possibly be useful on a melee", and go on our merry way? Probably not.

Some people would read 'interrupt food'.

I don't understand any of this argument, really. Back when SP dominated people would moan how it took the aspect of positioning out of the game. Well, positioning has become a mandatory skill for Sins again, and it's still not good enough. Is it so surprising they have great movement advantage? Not to me. Assassins should, IMO.

If an Assassin moves into half-range, and you're the kind of toon that should be worried about it, you should have panicked a while ago. Be glad instagib is gone and move on.

@ Riot: not talking HB since I have no experience with it. Comment restricted to TA, AB, to a lesser extent GvG.

Riotgear · Feb 08, 2008, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Some people would read 'interrupt food'.

Interrupting Siphon Speed is not going to have enough of an impact to prioritize interrupts on it. That isn't to say it isn't strong, a key part of the strength is its resistance to shutdown because it can be reapplied so easily.

Quote:

Back when SP dominated people would moan how it took the aspect of positioning out of the game. Well, positioning has become a mandatory skill for Sins again, and it's still not good enough. Is it so surprising they have great movement advantage? Not to me. Assassins should, IMO.

Siphon Speed simplifies positioning to begin with, and most Assassins are packing Dark Prison or Death's Charge in addition to it anyway. Make no mistake, the new lolsins require no more brainpower than the old ones did, they just need to spend 30 more dollars.

Quote:

Be glad instagib is gone

It's not.

Greyson · Feb 08, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

oh yeah, what a thought ... use a Mo/A with SS to keep the other team held up, even if they re-tweak the game like they always do for the crybabies, it would still make GvG'ers vunerable coming anywhere near monks ... get over it ... forever retweaking the game because you're frustrated when there are counters out there any capable Me/ can handle ...

personally, changing the game if it aint broken is <imho> a waste ... i would rather see some glitches, bugs, and holes fixed instead of listening to whiners

Riotgear · Feb 08, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

personally, changing the game if it aint broken is <imho> a waste ... i would rather see some glitches, bugs, and holes fixed instead of listening to whiners

People wouldn't be complaining about something if they didn't think it was "breaking" the game.

(and quite frankly, balance is more of an issue in PvP than any particular glitches, bugs, or holes. Unless you count rubber-banding in relic runs.)

Bobby2 · Feb 08, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Siphon Speed simplifies positioning to begin with

True, the very reason it is so powerful; but I don't think that is 'wrong' for an Assassin skill. The only thing that could be considered imba IMO is the duration at low DA spec.

Death's Charge and Dark Prison are meh. I run Beguiling Haze these days

EDIT: A Ranger DS'ing SSpeed might very well prove worthwhile since every Sin and their mother seems to follow up with Black Mantis Thrust or some other Hex-based attack. I know it pissed me off good when it happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's not.

*struggles to come up with spike that equals surprise and power of old SP build*

*fails*

I think it is...

ensoriki · Feb 09, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

*struggles to come up with spike that equals surprise and power of old SP build*

*fails*

I think it is...

I hear that trampling ox thing is big now >.>

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Which is less powerful on EVERY front than the pre-nerf SP build.

Point still stands.

Dominator1370 · Feb 10, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Which is less powerful on EVERY front than the pre-nerf SP build.

Point still stands.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the new Trampling Ox build is less degenerate than the original SP build. However, if you're going to tell me that the new Trampling Ox build isn't also degenerate, you're full of shit.

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

I don't think anyone is claiming that the new Trampling Ox build is more degenerate than the original SP build.

Fixed 4 yoo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

However, if you're going to tell me that the new Trampling Ox build isn't also degenerate, you're full of shit.

Full of shit it is. Very powerful but:

- SP got nerfed, lower frequency on killspikes.
- new Trampling chain takes up 1 more slot than old BLS chain, so Expose Defenses got the drop. This is HUGE. No back-up Hex for your chain, no more unblockability. So NatStride, Guardian et al are very viable again.
- Expose itself got mauled badly enough. Rigor Mortis is the obvious replacement but A/N's don't have IAS.

So no, it's not degenerate in my book. Let's drop the subject anyhooz.

/offtopicrantover

Back to Siphon Speed people.

Riotgear · Feb 10, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

new Trampling chain takes up 1 more slot than old BLS chain, so Expose Defenses got the drop.

More like they drop Impale, swap BoS for Twisting Fangs, put Rigor Mortis on the necro, and take Siphon Speed.