Curse

Killed u man · Feb 03, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Is it me, or does this skill have too many advantages, and too few (non) disadvantages?

Let's look at the skill:
Siphon Speed

Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe moves 33% slower and you move 33% faster. This Spell has half the normal range.

Now, MOST 33% speed buffs have a nasty drawback (Storm Djinns, Pious Haste, ...), but this one has the drawback that it ALSO snares your target. (Yes, I know that wasn't a drawback)
The fact that it is a hex is the main drawback of the skill, the fact you have to have an enemy close you to use it. However, in practical situation, this is often a small tole(/none at all) to pay for the benefits that this skill offers.
At a 5 Energy cost, 1 second castime, 5 recharge it is EASILY spammable (especially with some E-management), and one can easily cover 2 people with this hex... The duration of this hex also is longer than most speed buffs (AND snares)...

THIS all WITHOUT any interferance of Deadly Haste or Deadly Paradox (R.I.P.). On top of that, it is within the same attribute line of some other very questionable skills, used in various gimmicky builds. Some examples: Deadly Paradox, Shadow Prison, Augury of Death (Augury of Overpoweredness), Shroud of Silence (Recently "discovered" in HA and GvG-gimmicks, will see more play soon).

My question is (Thus, discussion), does this skill need a nerf (Slighly, let's not Ether Renewal it).

I base this need of a nerf on various observations, mainly comming from the "lower" forms of PvP. All you really have to do is simply take a look at HOW many gimmick-assassin combo's require a hex, will this hex offers the "ideal" synergy (5E, 1C, 5R) ON top of the perfect utility. (+33, -33)

Before you guys go beserk on me, saying how it doesn't deserve a nerf, because it barely sees play, and it died along with Deadly Paradox, look at these examples:
-> Pretty much EVERY SP assassin build has this one on there aswell.
-> In GvG, with the current Sineptitude, you often find it on the bars aswell, giving a MAJOR advantage, because it offers the cover hex for SoS, snare AND buff for when ganking
-> HA it is VERY often seen on pretty much any A/ or /A bar... NOT bringing it would be kinda dumb, seeing the utility it offers on ANY bar. (Speed Buff for Melee, and snare at same time, Spammable cover hex/snare for hex based teams)
-> In RA/TA this skill is to an assassin what "shock" is to a warrior. (With Shock being somewhat balanced...)
-> HB: No need to explain, it don't think you'll find ANY top 500 Sin without it...

As a final Note I would like to add WHY I ignored the Half-Range clause. It's pretty simply, the Half Range Clause on Siphon Speed is comparable to the one that states "Weakness after hit" on Wearying Strike. It is easily bypassed, often by the fact that you are a melee attacker (Sin = close to people anyways), or the fact that it "strenghtens" itself. If your NOT close enough to someone, than simply siphon speed something else (A Pet, or something) and catch up with the guy, untill you can cast it on him...

*Puts on +10 Vs. Flame Dmg*, and opens discussion...

Celeborn10 · Feb 03, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Now, MOST 33% speed buffs have a nasty drawback (Storm Djinns, Pious Haste, ...), but this one has the drawback that it ALSO snares your target. (Yes, I know that wasn't a drawback)

It does have a drawback, half-range. The Assassin is a squishie and this skill encourages the skillful positioning lacked so often found with SP bars. It's like saying Natural Stride is overpowered because of its 50% block and 33% run speed and overlooking the no enchant/hex clause on it.

Quote:

THIS all WITHOUT any interferance of Deadly Haste or Deadly Paradox (R.I.P.).

An assassin who uses those skills in conjunction with daggers should be neutered. It either kills your e-management (CS), Damage with DM or the duration of it which kills your e-management. I must confess to trying it with Deadly Haste and subsequently trying to purge myself with copious amounts of saltwater and vinegar. The results are not pretty. As for its use by itself, it does its purpose quite well as with its primary use being movement control. It's not as good as Cripshot but it is key to not being beaten to death by a warrior.

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EVERY SP assassin build has this one on there aswell

I've been away from the meta for a month but it seemed to me that the evolution of SP sins has been them trying to cram every possible attack skill on their bar plus an IAS, SP and Res Sig. Unless they dropped the Res I don't see how they'd fit it in there unless they (and you) were in AB.

Quote:

or /A bar... NOT bringing it would be kinda dumb, seeing the utility it offers on ANY bar.

Again last I checked Mo/A choose to use Dark Escape and Return in SA not caring to invest in DA. Most other classes choose to use a run buff from their own attributes as well. If Assassins chose to use it it's because it is the only semblance of the movement control they were originally designed for (Shadow of Haste) that was meant to be both the key to their offense and defense.

Ec]-[oMaN · Feb 03, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Yeah it's broken, 5e spamable snare and speed boost, oh wait I almost forgot, also acts as an opener to any attack requiring a hex(half of the money skills anyways).

Celeborn10 · Feb 03, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Yeah it's broken, 5e spamable snare and speed boost, oh wait I almost forgot, also acts as an opener to any attack requiring a hex(half of the money skills anyways).

Read the skill descriptions. The only one that explicitly requires a hex anymore (other than the bugged and dead BLS) is Black Spider Strike which by itself is not much of a threat. The hex-augmented skills are just that "half of the money skills" and Anet should have given Enchantment augmented skills more of the share of said money. Personally I think SS is a little more like what a sin should do anyway, be able to switch targets and be more flexible in a fight similar to how a warrior plays.

Killed u man · Feb 03, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

Read the skill descriptions. The only one that explicitly requires a hex anymore (other than the bugged and dead BLS) is Black Spider Strike which by itself is not much of a threat. The hex-augmented skills are just that "half of the money skills" and Anet should have given Enchantment augmented skills more of the share of said money. Personally I think SS is a little more like what a sin should do anyway, be able to switch targets and be more flexible in a fight similar to how a warrior plays.

You missed the main bar: Black Mantis Thrust.

Most overpowerd (Can compete with old BoS) build atm, and it needs a hex for the combo... (No criple = bye combo).

Why re you making unnececary comparissons? Mo/A OFFCOURSE doesn't have siphon speed. Gues what, he's too busy keeping his team alive...

Also, in AB, this skill is seen on pretty much every Sin bar. Same for HB. Same for RA and TA... That is already 30% (Kinda random, but you get the point) of PvP...

In HA, sins don't see much play in the first place, BUT when you take away the lame A/D crap (NEEEEEERF), any sin will have siphon speed...

In GvG, obsed just few minutes ago, they were running the Shroud of Silence sinway, gues what, both of them had siphon speed... I know also realize the problem will get worse in GvG, as more and more teams will be facing this...

Natural Stride is a GOOD skill, however comparing Natural Stride to Siphon Speed simply is retarded (Couldn't find a better word, slap me).
Natural Stride could in fact compete with Siphon, and might even win out on it, BUT the attribute line (Wilderniss) SUCKS. Apply Poision, some traps, and that's pretty much it.. (Everything else same play in some gimmick build, NR/Tranq, etc) But in general, One could state that it simply isn't worth going /R for the use of "Natural Stride", hoever, if you're already Apply Ranger, it would be kinda dumb NOT to bring it.
If you compare this to Deadly Arts tough, Which already is a sin Attribute Line, so makes it easier for them to invest points in AND still enables them to go /W for AIS...

So on top of all the things above, ANY caster that would go /A for Siphon Speed, gets a list of utility skills, ON top of Siphon Speed...
-> Disrupting Dagger
-> ShadowSteps (Still a broken mechanism)
-> Impale
-> Iron Palm
-> Augury
-> ...

Riotgear · Feb 04, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Needs a recharge hit.

If you want to stop the lolsin nonsense, then Falling Lotus Strike, Jungle Strike, and Rigor Mortis need a hit too.

If you want to stop the lolsin nonsense in HvH, then Barbs and Brutal Weapon need a hit as well.

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Really its fine as duration/recharge are

but, this is one of the most common snares put in an HA team if you fail to find room for a water ele or ward v foes.

Why?

Because it negates the +33% run boost from the relic runners, and it recharges fast too, you cam eventually beat holy veil recharge if you stay on the runner

It should be scalled down to 15% boost 15% snare

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Ye, that would be fine... 33% buff is just too much (Max), whilst 10-15 would make more sence..

Mod Energy + Recharge, well, I don't know, if you give it higher Energy, let's say 10, it would still me a reasonable skill, for what it is ment to do, snare a target for a few seconds to get your combo off... Not like the current HA/HB/AB trend, in which the "spam-on-as-many-people-as-you-can-and-win" is the way to go... Like you said, If he keeps spamming it on a target, he will eventually out-spam 1 (or 2 monks), which is NOT what this skill was ment to do...

Same for recharge, recharge to 10 wouldn't hurt this skill for the original use, but it would definatly stop this mindless spamming....

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I wouldnt like to see an energy/recharge hit myself, I dont run this skill that often, but if you nerf either of those too hard, it will stop being run.

As it is, a player standing there spamming siphon speed isnt pressuring my team much (unless I am running heavy physicals, then I will just have mesmer divert him), so Im happy to leave him be

(most commonly its a trapper spamming, and id rather have him do that than trap requiring me to devote someone to wanding it)

On the relic run however, its pretty damn annoying, good thing teams that slot this generally dont have any other snares

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I know, and as you said, it doesn't see much play in HA, However, when it does, it's VERY annoying, but in Other farmats of PvP, like I mentioned before, this skill is a problem....

Celeborn10 · Feb 04, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

You missed the main bar: Black Mantis Thrust.

Most overpowerd (Can compete with old BoS) build atm, and it needs a hex for the combo... (No criple = bye combo).

Yes, BMT has too much synergy with it. Is nerfing Siphon Speed going to stop the SP Assassins? Nerf BMT as well as Siphon Speed if you really wish to stop them. The reason I hate hex-based skills is that they synergize too well with gimmicks that have 75% of their bar filled with attack skills. BMT requires no brain to use but it's cousin Leaping Mantis is comparatively balanced and is similar in function to a Warrior's Bull's Strike.

Quote:

So on top of all the things above, ANY caster that would go /A for Siphon Speed, gets a list of utility skills, ON top of Siphon Speed...
-> Disrupting Dagger
-> ShadowSteps (Still a broken mechanism)
-> Impale
-> Iron Palm
-> Augury
-> ...

Disrupting Dagger-Most commonly seen on W/A's who are able to advance far enough to actually use this half-range spell.
Shadowsteps-there are four shadowsteps in DA and all of them except for the horrendous Shadow Fang should be happily nerfed into oblivion. The other four of them are in SA which is relatively useless to Assassin primaries but Mo/A's love. Oh and Shadow Walk but casters and most melee don't like it because it disables enchantments and prevents the use of an IAS.
Impale-Nice skill, fits in nicely with the LOD mechanic and far from imbalanced. Think of it as a Warrior's Final Thrust. SP sins sometimes use it but I would argue that it is the long dagger chains that need to die not Impale. Can only be used after a Dual Attack which means it is rarely seen on on /A.
Iron Palm-This skill is only seen in Assacasters and Mo/A both of which need to die a slow death
Augury-Imbalanced pile of poo used in gimmicks that needs to be fixed but Izzy seems to think that Assacasters bring 'Diversity' to Assassins...

In general it seems that when someone goes /A it is to get one certain niche skill that their primary doesn't have. Warrior's go for Disrupting Dagger or for Shadowsteps, Mo/A use Iron Palm for their gimmick build and casters use Augury for the deepwound. None of them seem to use Siphon Speed. Oh and you mentioned pretty much all the somewhat useful skills in the DA line except Scorpion Wire which is pretty indicative of the useful utility the Assassin has.

Quote:

BUT the attribute line (Wilderniss) SUCKS. Apply Poision, some traps, and that's pretty much it..

You don't know the meaning of suck until you look at Shadow Arts. Wilderness Survival gives the ranger the survival it needs for GvG. It has Troll Unguent, AP and Natural Stride. In comparison SA is a poorly made imitation of it with some bad hexes, poor offensive utility and a few meh stances, meh healing and shadowsteps that are found most often on Mo/A. The only skill in there that's commonly used on A/ is the gimmick Shadowform.

Quote:

Mod Energy + Recharge, well, I don't know, if you give it higher Energy, let's say 10, it would still me a reasonable skill, for what it is ment to do, snare a target for a few seconds to get your combo off... Not like the current HA/HB/AB trend, in which the "spam-on-as-many-people-as-you-can-and-win" is the way to go... Like you said, If he keeps spamming it on a target, he will eventually out-spam 1 (or 2 monks), which is NOT what this skill was ment to do...

I'd settle for either a nerf to 10e or recharge to 10s to counteract the mindless spamming in HA but not both. One makes mindful opportunistic spam possible but taxing and the other outright limits the spam. Having both nerfs would completely kill the skill to any other Assassin primary bar but a SP assassin.

Quote:

Needs a recharge hit.

If you want to stop the lolsin nonsense, then Falling Lotus Strike, Jungle Strike, and Rigor Mortis need a hit too.

Very true but unfortunately I think that Anet is hellbent on making Assassins go towards making Assassin's use Falling Lotus Strike and buying EoTN. Note the buff of Jungle Strike before EoTN was released and the inclusion of Trampling Ox in EoTN. All the dagger attack skills that knockdown are Dual Attacks which Falling Lotus would follow. Anet doesn't want any of its newly released skills to be useless rather they want them to be more essential for both PvP and PvE hence the unbalanced Ursan skill in PvE.

Magikarp · Feb 04, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

can you guys do the community a major favor and stop whining? siphon is the best snare in the game, granted that, but it has its drawbacks being half range, and easy to predict. sure, you can cast it a lot, but its like any expendable hex, all it does is tell the target and his/her team what coming, meaning pre-prot, fast removal of the skills that follow, or blocking/stances. no one likes complainers, and we REALLY dont need more nerf stick.... not to mention, its one of the few skills sins can really use at a low spec without stretching their attributes all over, while staying somewhat capable of surviving on their own.

Celeborn10 · Feb 04, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

can you guys do the community a major favor and stop whining? siphon is the best snare in the game, granted that, but it has its drawbacks being half range, and easy to predict. sure, you can cast it a lot, but its like any expendable hex, all it does is tell the target and his/her team what coming, meaning pre-prot, fast removal of the skills that follow, or blocking/stances. no one likes complainers, and we REALLY dont need more nerf stick.... not to mention, its one of the few skills sins can really use at a low spec without stretching their attributes all over, while staying somewhat capable of surviving on their own.

Try monking against it. You'll find that one of the things that is really lacking in the meta is good hex removal. If you try to remove it you'll eventually run out of energy, if you try to ignore it 2-3 people on your team are snared by one Assassin meaning the other team gains a significant movement advantage. It's almost to the level of Cripshot except Crippling is easier to remove.

Ekelon · Feb 04, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I would say a nerf to 8 second recharge would be enough.

Bobby2 · Feb 04, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Half-range, 1 second casting time. You people need to get over yourself. All the whining about SP, I could understand, because it's a Shadow Step aside from the snare. But if you can't see (hence prepare for) Siphon Speed coming, there is something wrong with your eyes.

X Black Chaos X · Feb 04, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I don't see whats wrong with it? If it's really bothersome increase the recharge time but otherwise leave it alone.

Killed u man · Feb 05, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Well, looking at your profession, one doesn't have to think long to realize you're opinion isn't objective at all.

Also, don't take this personal, but I'm pretty sure you abuse it aswell in HB.

Quote:

You don't know the meaning of suck until you look at Shadow Arts. Wilderness Survival gives the ranger the survival it needs for GvG. It has Troll Unguent, AP and Natural Stride. In comparison SA is a poorly made imitation of it with some bad hexes, poor offensive utility and a few meh stances, meh healing and shadowsteps that are found most often on Mo/A. The only skill in there that's commonly used on A/ is the gimmick Shadowform.

But thats NOT the point, the point here is that if you go /A on someone, ON TOP of siphon speed, you get so many extra imbalanced skill, such as disrupting dagger, shadowsteps,...

What has shadow arts got to do with ANYTHING? Also, my point was that wilderniss survival was useless for anything Non-Ranger. Ow wait, are you suggesting we should run E/R with Apply poison? Excellent Idea! (Waits a moment so the sarcasm can strike)

My point is that Siphon speed is too good on it's own, ON TOP of all the extra sweeties you get from Deadly Arts attribute line...

LifesRestorer · Feb 05, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

It should be scalled down to 15% boost 15% snare

/winthread 12345

Celeborn10 · Feb 05, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Well, looking at your profession, one doesn't have to think long to realize you're opinion isn't objective at all.

Also, don't take this personal, but I'm pretty sure you abuse it aswell in HB.

But thats NOT the point, the point here is that if you go /A on someone, ON TOP of siphon speed, you get so many extra imbalanced skill, such as disrupting dagger, shadowsteps,...

What has shadow arts got to do with ANYTHING? Also, my point was that wilderniss survival was useless for anything Non-Ranger. Ow wait, are you suggesting we should run E/R with Apply poison? Excellent Idea! (Waits a moment so the sarcasm can strike)

My point is that Siphon speed is too good on it's own, ON TOP of all the extra sweeties you get from Deadly Arts attribute line...

You brought up run buffs that have no downside and then I brought up NS because for Rangers it only has the downside of canceling on hexes (it's rare to see a ranger bar with enchants). Then you tried saying that WS was horrible mentioning the spirits and traps and that really ticked me off with SA in the state it was in now.

I should have made myself clearer; by no means to I oppose a balance but I do oppose an improperly implemented balancing that makes an attribute worth more to a Secondary class than to the Primary class it was intended to complement. SA suffered from this and is thus the perfect example of multiple balances gone wrong.

And how is disrupting dagger imbalanced? Warriors use Disrupting Dagger because they have skillful situational awareness to know when and where to use it, something that is by no means overpowered.

To cut short my argument, I believe that Siphon Speed is one of the few incentives to use a hybrid Dagger/Dark Arts build with utility instead of filling up the bar with Dagger Attacks. I am not opposed to a balancing of the skill to prevent its spam but neither do I wish for it to become more useful to E/A who'd have more energy to spam it and Augury in a true gimmick build.

Off topic: E/R with Thunderclap and Apply Poison is fun to run just for kicks sometimes.

Bobby2 · Feb 05, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

But thats NOT the point, the point here is that if you go /A on someone, ON TOP of siphon speed, you get so many extra imbalanced skill, such as disrupting dagger, shadowsteps,...

/snip

My point is that Siphon speed is too good on it's own, ON TOP of all the extra sweeties you get from Deadly Arts attribute line...

The Deadly Arts line has been hit with the nerf bat quite hard; I would say Siphon Speed is one of the few generally useful (not counting gimmixx) skills left.

Disrupting Dagger - you first example: Celeborn broke it down pretty nicely. It's a good, widely accessable utility spell - but by no means overpowered.

Shadow Steps... please specify, as they are all quite sucky IMO. The exception would be Augury of Death, which isn't really a Shadow Step at all. Requires heavy DA investment to be powerful, too.

As for spamming SSpeed - kudos to the Sin (or /Sin) in question for having balls of steel.