Curse

Snow Bunny · Feb 07, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Either way, doesn't everyone and their mother carry around at least a rend, probably a corrupt, and many times a warmongers in order to prevent stuff like guardian?

Don't forget your kid sister too.

HB is simply a matter of correctly guessing when you won't be blinded by the wall of anti-melee hate and then successfully unloading all of your anti-block/prot onto the target.

I think this update is interesting. I'll admit, I've been asking for a while now to bring LoD back, but this isn't it. It needs 7/8r to be worth it.

The SoR buff is basically ANet's way of saying, "Well, we herd u liek party healz, riet?"

Kaolai and SoR were already played heavily, and with buffs to each of them there's no way LoD will see play. It's still dominated by WoH. It'd be nice for ANet to bring back SoD sometime though.

Ensign · Feb 07, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I really don't understand what is going on with these VoD changes. I look at them and I see them as being stabs at particular symptoms of the current metagame, but generally they're offering a solution to a non-problem and creating even more problems in the process.

To get it out of the way now, I think the current version of VoD is better than the previous, but is still an order of magnitude worse than what we had before all of this tinkering started. GvG balance has always relied on the leveraging of two external resources - the flag, and the base. The balance of the game for the longest time put most of the emphasis upon the flagstand, moving flags, and gaining / denying morale boosts. This was good, because the flag forces confrontation and movement by constantly ferrying flags to the stand; it made taking ground and pushing valuable. Leveraged against that was the base and NPCs. They were a secondary resource that could be threatened as an alternative route of pushing flaggers, and another, competing advantage for VoD. Teams would trade NPCs for boosts, or go down on flags to preserve NPCs; most of the interesting interplay came between the leveraging of the two resources against each other.

The main purpose of VoD is to end the game, but how it's designed is important because of how it factors in the different advantages gained throughout the game. Positioning, morale, ressigs, and NPCs are all important resources that are fought over throughout the game, and each of those advantages needs to translate into something palpable at VoD when the game is forced to a close.

Now eventually some kinks in the metagame made things ugly. The two obvious ones are as follows. First, the value of partywide 8v8 defense became significant enough that it started to chew into a team's ability to function while split up. Teams that could threaten a meaningful split were giving up far too much 8v8 power to do so, such that they couldn't fight a true 8v8 even with incremental advantages built up over the match. Second, the value of killing NPCs before VoD was minimized by the ease with which a team's NPCs could be balled up and farmed with AoE when they marched at VoD. The former meant that you had to give up your ability to win 8v8 to win on a split at all, and that you then had to win on a split; the latter meant that even if you did win on a split, it didn't matter because the advantage you could build up through 18 minutes of push and pull could be wiped out by a Dervish or Paragon with Splinter Weapon. So people largely didn't bother splitting, and 8v8 teams that were good at surviving and farming NPCs flourished.

The impression I've gotten is that A.Net does not feel that NPCs, and NPC advantages, were valuable enough at VoD. I disagree; NPCs have been perhaps too valuable for the last 6 months. The problem wasn't the value of the NPCs, but the imbalance between the different ways of getting a NPC advantage. The best way of getting a NPC advantage at VoD hasn't been to pick off archers on a split, but to have more staying power and more AoE to create that NPC advantage in a few seconds at the stand.

The obvious solution to this problem is to decrease the power of AoE farming NPCs at VoD. That would make it more reasonable to achieve your NPC advantage before VoD, through some sort of split tactic or by beating someone ahead of time.

Well, the solution that came down was to make NPCs retardedly powerful, so that the would kill you before you could farm them at VoD - hence your only option is to kill them before VoD. This was an unacknowledged disaster; now we're playing with another mechanic that does largely the same thing, by making the team that does get the NPC advantage monstershot people instead of the NPCs - I expect it to end up having the same problems, perhaps even moreso since small NPC advantages are turned into even more monstrous advantages now. But all of this has created a much more glaring, serious problem with GvG.

It has broken the balance between the value of the flagstand, and the value of NPCs.

Simply put, the changes in VoD have shifted the primary focus of the game from capping the watchtower and controlling the ground around it, to protecting and saving your NPCs at all costs. I'm not even sure that morale and the flagstand even matter anymore; it might be the case now that giving your opponent a morale boost is preferable to giving them even a single archer. This is absolutely atrocious for gameplay. The core strategy of GvG now is gaining and maintaining a NPC advantage at all costs - suicide runs on NPCs and base camping could very well be the best way to approach a match. NPC advantages do not force confrontation. They do not lead to dynamic gameplay - that was generated by the necessity to push and defend flag runners. It feels like a key dimension of the game has been stripped away, and now we're playing a bastardized version of Guild Wars that's really about babysitting your archers until the game ends.

Instead of a dynamic game with several different resources being leveraged against each other, with changing strategies to adapt to the other team's defenses, now we're being railroaded into a one dimensional game to try and force a single strategy simply because glaring balance issues that had *kept getting worse* update to update were never addressed.

It's really hard to say nicely. Despite some questionable decisions (Power Leak), I thought that some real progress was finally being made on the skill balance of the game with this update. But alongside the steps forward that would represent are these two steps sideways, off of the bridge and into freefall, with VoD, that are doing more damage not only to the strategic depth of GvG play, but to the game as an enjoyable pastime, than any balance update has ever managed to do in this game.

Legally · Feb 07, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by undeadgun

seriously? give more time to let em take down NPCs one by one? no uh ah

=D

i kinda only played gvg when vod was at 25 or if it was 30 i dunno
it was fun as hell i DO know.

erk · Feb 07, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

They do not lead to dynamic gameplay - that was generated by the necessity to push and defend flag runners.

Long post by Ensign, which I agree with totally except the one sentence. I never thought camping a the flag stand in a blockweb, defending flag runners, was all that dynamic. I am hoping the need to split will create more interesting games, we shall know pretty quickly no doubt, and I wouldn't give up hope, if it leads to a mono culture play style I am pretty sure A.net will reverse bits of it to push it back to stand camping (holding?) again.

Ensign · Feb 07, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

You don't need to split. Splitting comes from needing to preserve NPCs while at least capping the flagstand often enough to not give up boosts.

Now the flagstand is virtually worthless compared to holding NPCs. It's a mirror image of the situation before, where holding NPCs barely mattered but the flagstand did. Still no splitting, just a lot of ganking and base camping. Fighting at the stand isn't going to win you games.

It's split play in as much as blockway leaving a runner and a bsurge in the base was split play.

Skye Marin · Feb 07, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Second, the value of killing NPCs before VoD was minimized by the ease with which a team's NPCs could be balled up and farmed with AoE when they marched at VoD. The former meant that you had to give up your ability to win 8v8 to win on a split at all, and that you then had to win on a split; the latter meant that even if you did win on a split, it didn't matter because the advantage you could build up through 18 minutes of push and pull could be wiped out by a Dervish or Paragon with Splinter Weapon. So people largely didn't bother splitting, and 8v8 teams that were good at surviving and farming NPCs flourished.

...

The obvious solution to this problem is to decrease the power of AoE farming NPCs at VoD. That would make it more reasonable to achieve your NPC advantage before VoD, through some sort of split tactic or by beating someone ahead of time.

So, with the new pathing to prevent farming, and a drop the bonus damage part or all the way, should be we okay?

What would be best? An instant-teleport of NPCs to two aggro bubbles behind the flagstand? A % damage reduction to NPC's while in transit (not attacking at the stand)? Carrier's Defense?

I know that NPC's need to be more important to the game than "those things we farm before we win".

Ensign · Feb 07, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

So, with the new pathing to prevent farming, and a drop the bonus damage part or all the way, should be we okay?

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

wuzzman · Feb 07, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Let teams camp at the flag stand for 18 minutes then blow up balled up npcs at VoD or let teams camp their bases to protect their uber powerful npc's of one shotting ownage...decisions decisions, god I love this game.

pah01 · Feb 07, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the archers spreading out works out properly, and the farming of NPCs hadn't been replaced by bigger problems like increasing NPC damage and Victory is Ours, then yes, we'd probably be ok.

So anet have you got the sense to listen?

Skye Marin · Feb 07, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Does this mean Ensign won't decree about the wonders of Doylak Signet anymore?

Thank God.

mrmango · Feb 07, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Does this mean Ensign won't decree about the wonders of Doylak Signet anymore?

Thank God.

Wasn't this the internet?

erk · Feb 07, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Let teams camp at the flag stand for 18 minutes then blow up balled up npcs at VoD or let teams camp their bases to protect their uber powerful npc's of one shotting ownage...decisions decisions, god I love this game.

You can't camp both bases at once, something has to give.

Lykan · Feb 07, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Not a bad update, it may help change the meta a bit, grenth should make a small dent in the aegis chain and healing buffs are ok, troll and healsig needed a buff too. VoD changes are fun, no catapult spike on npcs will be interesting. ViO is a bit gay imo.

but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

PLeak Dead. You might as well have deleted the skill.

I agree, you know it wont get used at all now right?

Katina · Feb 07, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

I am speechless at the power leak nerf. I don't know if you actually play the game or pay attention, but power leak was about 50% of the mesmer shut down of the standard GvG bar today. This update proves you don't pay attention or give a shit.

Removing this skill and not buffing any other skill to replace it is just mindless. With the LoD nerf, LoD was nerfed but WoH and countless other skills were buffed to replace the "nerfed" skill and encourage their use. Power Leak is out of the game completely, and you haven't buffed anything. Not only that, but you ignore touching Enchanters Conundrum, a skill which encourages the old "Euro Spike" days.

Ontop of this, all the party heals and aegis's will get off and be unpunished. You can power spike it, you can power drain it, but nothing else is done to punish the caster. Power leak was a huge part of pressure. Having buffed party heals out the ass and removing a powerful skill to help balance that out is just the worse idea I could think of.

Just be smart about the power leak nerf, and stop siding with bitches who complain about getting power leaked because they don't know how to cancel skills. Theres intelligent ways to balance the game, and this was faaaar from it.

Hex breaker Bsurges = invincible

tricolorsp · Feb 07, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katina

I am speechless at the power leak nerf.

pleak at -19(14dom) was way too much, but i agree that -5 is really bad...it should be something around -10/-12.

also think that LoD with 10sec recharge is still bad, something like 5-6sec recharge would be a lot better.

glyph of energy buff was unnecessary.

Problem. · Feb 07, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Okay so lets put things together:

- Pleak is nerfed, this was almost the only skill that could take down defensive webs to pressure.
- Defensive web did not get nerfed, on the contrary: it got buffed. Partygon got buffed (izzy i warn you, whener i'll see you i WILL brutally kill you for doing that).
- Due to the vod change, splitting become HIGHLY important. A big buff for sinsplit. Self heals got a marginal buff but it barely changed anything.
- Clumsiness got nerfed, so sineptitude isnt possible anymore. Sinsplit will need another midline.

In short, the ability to pressure got nerfed AGAIN. Splitting got buffed, and spike remains just as powerful meaning it is by far the most effective way of killing in an 8v8. So it's either split or spike. Gay.

Im going to have to disagree with your first point. Power Leak only did what any other interrupt did to blockway, and that was get Aegis (unless you are on crack and can get FC ward on reflex). Either way, I know since most Euro monks play with Glyph, the energy loss from power leak wasn't directly debilitating anyway. Its not the energy loss from the power leak that debilitates backlines, its the energy expenditure from having to prot/heal damage from 3-4 physicals (2 wars, paragon, and ranger) because the Aegis that effects all of those characters to deal damage is down.

As far as your point #2 goes, Izzy buffed SoR b/c he didn't want paragons speccing 13-14 in motivation and having like 9 in spear. So he raised the low end, and removed the breakpoint at 13 mot for a +4 mending refrain, in hopes of driving a more damage oriented paragon. The new paragon, if more damage oriented, wont put out as much party heals as before because some of its passivity was removed.

As far as your point 3 goes, splitting was always important. There was never a time when it wasn't. I just dont know why people insist on fighting at the stand with this mentality "Plan A: 8v8 at Stand and kill them. If Plan A doesn't work, try Plan A harder." As far as victory is ours, this is more of a buff to byob rather than sinsplit considering all the nerfs to "sineptitudes" stand team. Now your warriors can just train and follow their sins, and rape them. Game over.

As far as the self-heals go, I'm hoping this will encourage more interesting play in terms of skirmish/split action. Hopefully, even change the meta. No offense, but watching euros is really does as they all do the same crap. Shutdown/spike at stand. Mesmers camp enemy mesmers the entire time. Then shame on spikes, maybe a pleak on Aegis from time to time. Then possibly some shock trains. There are only a couple of euro teams that actually split and are well-versed at it.

erk · Feb 07, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricolorsp

also think that LoD with 10sec recharge is still bad, something like 5-6sec recharge would be a lot better.

When LoD/Infuse was the meta not so long a go, I did a survey of quite a lot of games in obs, and the average Monk only used LoD 4-6 times a minute. It gave a slightly better heal back then, but now with all the other heal boosts it probably doesn't need spamming.

Dominator1370 · Feb 07, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It has broken the balance between the value of the flagstand, and the value of NPCs.
... Neatly wrapped in a cocoon of wonderfulness

The balance is broken now, and the balance was broken with the last VoD update. Does this mean we revert to the old VoD, or does this mean we try something new (besides this)?

In a similar vein to what Anet is trying now, I remember seeing a suggestion to give a team a (small) %bonus for every NPC they have alive. It could scale as the game went on if desired. I'm not sure if that would be better than the old VoD or not, but I have a strong feeling that it would be a hell of a lot better than a flat 15% for having an extra archer.

Then again, the idea of giving any kind of supplemental benefit for what is already supposed to be beneficial strikes me as, well, bizarre. Anet seems to have this love of fixing the problem by tossing a band-aid on rather than fixing the root of the problem. If you want to make NPC's more influential, make them more influential, rather than going about it in some roundabout way. Granted, we tried that, and it kind of sucked. Maybe we should roll back both recent VoD updates (with the obvious exception of the supposed AoE fix), see how things play out, and re-evaluate things like NPC importance then?

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Feb 07, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katina

I am speechless at the power leak nerf. I don't know if you actually play the game or pay attention, but power leak was about 50% of the mesmer shut down of the standard GvG bar today. This update proves you don't pay attention or give a shit.

Removing this skill and not buffing any other skill to replace it is just mindless. With the LoD nerf, LoD was nerfed but WoH and countless other skills were buffed to replace the "nerfed" skill and encourage their use. Power Leak is out of the game completely, and you haven't buffed anything. Not only that, but you ignore touching Enchanters Conundrum, a skill which encourages the old "Euro Spike" days.

Ontop of this, all the party heals and aegis's will get off and be unpunished. You can power spike it, you can power drain it, but nothing else is done to punish the caster. Power leak was a huge part of pressure. Having buffed party heals out the ass and removing a powerful skill to help balance that out is just the worse idea I could think of.

Just be smart about the power leak nerf, and stop siding with bitches who complain about getting power leaked because they don't know how to cancel skills. Theres intelligent ways to balance the game, and this was faaaar from it.

Hex breaker Bsurges = invincible

quoted for truth.
well said

Zuranthium · Feb 07, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The only thing I ever thought was particularly wrong with the energy costs was that they chose 25 instead of 20 when they have been consistently unwilling/unable to give skills the appropriate power level for 25. I'm not sure there's much to be gained in increasing the granularity - it's simply a neutral design choice that needs to be considered when creating the skills, not something that's inherently good or bad in itself.

Going from 5 to 10 is a 100% increase in cost. Sure, you can balance on effect, but then you're leaving out a lot of possibilities in between on how various skills could play. Same thing with not having costs less than 5.

Imagine if recharge times were so static.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Nobody uses Glyph of Energy for the energy mangement; Elementalists have better choices if you need the energy and you usually don't. It's not going to promote anything positive - the 25e and/or Exhaustion skills people didn't use before will continue to not be used because they are bad skills.

Deep Freeze is not a bad skill at all and I could easily see it getting play on a Glyph Energy Mesmer. Earthquake + Dragon Stomp have already seen a bit of play on Glyph Energy Mesmers..."C A S T R A T I O N [SoaP]" got Silver capes this past Monthly and ran one. I'm not saying the latter case is overpowered, Earthquake and Dragon Stomp really aren't great, but I AM saying such a thing shouldn't be happening in the first place.

(and, yes, there is a good Elem build that the Glyph Energy buff helped)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Last I checked, Whirlwind has the normal aftercast, not the PBAoE aftercast of suck.

Did not know this. Even still, I'm not convinced that it is going to be very good for any build. You want self-defense abilities to be a stance or 1/4 second activation. I think it needs to also knock down moving foes and have a "Nearby" Area of Effect to be a useful skill. The recharge or cost would likely need to be increased for that level of effect as well.

~Z