Curse

Dr Strangelove · Feb 17, 2008, 04:07 AM // 04:07

About a year ago I had been doing GvG and HA fairly regularly with mild success. Unfortunately my old guild fell apart when the hero battles ladder came out, so I shacked up with some friends in a PvE guild and played hard mode for a while.

However, I'm bored with PvE now, and want to get back into high-end PvP. The catch is that I want to try and get some of my guildies in with me. Most of these people are decent players, but have little experience in GvG and HA, so I'm trying to figure out the easiest way to ease them into it. I do have a decent number of PvPers still on my friendlist that are willing to come along, and I'm reasonably experienced, so I don't have to start completely from scratch.

So, onto the questions:

If we run a balanced build, we will likely lose the majority of our games until we get into the swing of things. I'm concerned that I'll start shedding people if we lose the majority of our games. So, would it be better to run balanced builds or gimmicky stuff?

I strongly prefer GvG, but I know PvE players tend to prefer the rewards from HA. Which area would be best to concentrate on?

There are always players who, to put it gently, suck at Guild Wars and will always suck. However, some of these people are still my friends. Any suggestions on ways to screen these people out or let them down gently?

bk359 · Feb 17, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

If you plan on bringing a large number of your friends that are primarily PvE into a balanced in HA you will probably lose alot at first. At first I would run some gimmicky stuff that is easy to use so the new players can see all the maps and get an idea of what HA is like. I would probably start out with something like heroway despite its lameness. Then after heroway I would see if they understand a spike and can do it. If they have trouble with spikes I would run a simple pure spike build like Invoke spike or something. If they are comfortable with the idea of spiking I would run telespike for awhile. Then after that I would start running whatever you want.

I would start with HA. ITs alot mroe crowded, but the maps take much less strategy to do unlike GvG. I think GvG would be kind of overwhelming at first because of splits and stuff. Once they get the hang of PvP I would start with GvG.

If you have friends that just can't seem to keep up I would put them in the position on your team where they have a very small amount of tasks. If they still can't keep up, I usually tend to just stop inviting them to come pvp in Ha/GvG. If they ask me though I'll let them come since I have a really hard time saying no to someone.

Byron · Feb 17, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

There's really no trick, in my experience. It takes game hours to get better at pvp. But confidence and good leadership go a long way.

Anata · Feb 17, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

TA is a good start imo. All it takes to make a good guild is guildies with determination to get better and activity.

Syntonic · Feb 17, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I have to agree with TA. If these guys haven't played PvP much at all and are still beginning, then TA should act like a clear filter to see who has at least the basics down and can improve easily. As for saying no, there's no easy way to say it. "I don't think you are ready yet and <insert reasons why>." If they are ranked or have an ego issue, then I suppose saying that their play styles don't fit yours is probably the best way to go about it. You should probably go with what your friends are mostly interested in so ask them to decide for you. You can always ease them into GvG after they had their fill of fame farming.

Pleikki · Feb 17, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

mm Ta isnt tbh best way to Pvp i think ppl should get guild & mates and do Ta and HB Or Zaishen elite balanced. Then you learn Pvp and you can better do Ha and GvG

red orc · Feb 17, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Just start GVG and dont bother with loosing.
Tell the people your expectation. Create a forum where you analyze each fight to figure what went wrong, what was good, the build you faced and the fight island.
You will loose ton of games at the start, then you will stabilize.
And them you will start winning +3 all the time until you get to the right ladder position. Just do good analysis of the losses, so people can improve.

Sab · Feb 17, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I don't recommend TA. It's been a scrubfest for a long time and unless you're willing to pull down your pants, bend over and play rock-paper-scissors, or do a very good balanced team, you'll probably not get much from TA.

Start with GVG, it's easier as there's a *lot* more help out there for guilds just starting to play.

frojack · Feb 17, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

If your main aim is to get back into GvG, then you might as well start there. TA, as much fun as it is (and being entirely guild independent, yay F-list), it only teaches a portion of the lessons players need to learn for GvG. Same with HA. It does however depend on the skill-level of the players you want to bring into it. If they understand the absolute basics of pvp (or are not too far from doing so) then go for it. As long as your prepared to lose a hell of a lot of fights, it's fine and good fun.
Also these loses are great as they usually weed out the people who aren't committed enough to follow it through in the first place. Experienced or not.

Also talking to each other pre and post game is essential. Doing this on vent is usually the best way, as you'll get through a lot far quicker (time is a huge issue for most people with day jobs ^_^). It will also allow you to become familiar with voices so mid-match info is more intuitive (helps you instantly know where it's coming from).

I've also found playing with a regular team (your core team even) moves things along faster, and you just start to learn how your team-mates play. What they're strong/weak at, habits etc.

Looking at all the guides and stuff is invaluable. Whenever you find something cool, get all your team-mates to read it. Discuss it on vent even (book club style if you like). There's some truly amazing stuff out there. Off the top of my head is Chiizu's Pressure for Tykes warrior guide. Some incredibly useful stuff here. Potentially even better is the epic post by Squidget later on in the thread. It really doesn't get much better than this for playing warrior in gvg. This is probably one of the most important things to read for everyone on the team (even if they don't play war) as it tells you what the most dangerous unit on the field is usually trying to do, at any given moment.

How and what you play is kinda up to you... Or rather I have no place saying which works best. I personally like playing balanced for a while even if it completely sucks in whatever meta your playing in (like Splitsville for instance ^_^. Well... A splittable balanced is pretty solid still but ya...). Then after the team gets a handle on that, I like to try other random stuff. Almost gimmicky stuff even, just to understand what the hell is going on in those builds. If I see something, bizarre, interesting, or just plain weird, I usually ob's it like crazy, try and recreate it and get the team to consider it in a vent discussion for a little while. This builds up the teams knowledge base, and keeps everyone on the same wave-length. It also helps the team critique their own builds and see where synergy and general efficiency is weak, amongst other things.

Also, what Byron says is key. Man-hours/time spent playing is just so important. It's one of the reasons I've had a difficult time getting back into it myself for the past few months or so. Between leaving my last main guild-home and jumping around so-called 'pvp' guilds, I just lack the time to commit like say that of an average teenager. I think I've finally found a guild that has people with a similar situation to my own (as in 24 average, independent with(out) dependants, and working full-time) that want to PvP more regardless of making top 100 or not. So I guess I'll see how it goes...

Having members who can play at similar times is also a huge consideration.

Well good luck Dr. Strangelove. Hope this helps some. I'm sure some more experienced players will come along with more valuable info, so keep up the practice ^_^.

Iotan · Feb 17, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Running gimmicks in GvG, while being scorned by the PvP community, does help inexperienced people get better. However you have to know when you've learned all you can from the gimmick and move on.

Gimmicks will teach you mostly about the mechanics of GvG, the current metagame and somewhat about team communication. They let you learn skill icons and map mechanics but only give you very basic strategy and don't really help players learn their positions (not always the case depending on the gimmick.) If you are going into games with completely unexperienced players then it's a good idea to try to have some sort of build advantage if you want to win. Some teams are tight enough that they can handle losing a lot running a balanced build, but if you're concerned about losing personnel then try to get a build that gives you an advantage. As you learn who is good on your roster then shift away from gimmicks and try to get people into their core position.

If you still want to play with awful people then you need to decide what is more important; winning without them or losing with them. If they still enjoy PvE, then they can sit in the guild or join in HA while the good people PvP, but by no means should you give them false hopes. If you want to win and they are bad then don't play them. You could GvG with these people on the ladder, where +/-5 is the worst you could get. This can get problematic since you'll be at an inflated rank for the team that you're playing, and thus lose to guilds you normally wouldn't lose to. I've had this situation happen, and it can cause more drama than it should. Again, you'll have to decide this based on your experience and how well you know your team.

HA is a cesspool of shit, and it will take you (and your PvE'rs) a long time to win and be 'profitable' by PvE standards (unless you play at 4am US time). If everyone has even a small liking of GvG then that's what you should do. Playing in tourneys give nice reward points and Zkeys give decent gold if sold or they give you the lottery which most PvErs love. If your ultimate goal is to play GvG, then you should start there. TA is ok when you have 2-3 guildies on and HA is only for the most dedicated of fame farmers. However, TA might be an ok place to weed out absolutely terrible players before you have enough on for GvG.

The best thing you can do is play often if you want to improve. Dissecting the game on obs mode or on forums is nice and all, but there's nothing like getting the actual experience of playing.