Curse

Seamus Finn · Feb 14, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elu Arina

Using it for anything else though means you're probably running a gimp bar.

Patient spirit is easily the best shatter-bait skill a monk could slot.

Elu Arina · Feb 14, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

@Seamus Finn
I don't think that really matters. Any enchantment is technically shatter-bait but, if I was running Patient Spirit, I'd prefer a mesmer removed it instead of my guardian or spirit bond. If a mesmer wants to be effective, he isn't going to waste a 25s recharge skill on a patient spirit that is going to negate his shatter damage anyway.

Edit: I think I misunderstood what he meant. (I haven't slept in 2 days, cut me some slack :P) Using it to catch a shatter isn't going to do much though. You'd have to time it right as the duration isn't really long enough to act as a cover enchant. It's like using RoF as a cover enchant, but possibly even less effective. A mesmer can probably wait out the 2 seconds.

Teh Jace · Feb 14, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I used to belong to happy WoH users as it got buffed. Simply because using ZB was way too risky for me (DF bonus applied BEFORE calculating ZB mark) so I happened to have many 10e losses cuz of "Oh yeah, he must be below 40% Im pretty sure... oh noes, he wasnt." things. Regardless of my preprotting, such things kept happening to me.

So I made some shitty WoH bar with bugged spotless soul and guardian as the only prot. Ofc running WoH alone is a suicide so it contained patient spirit as well. Monking with this bar was a piece of cake. The only thing I had to do was watching usually one retarded warrior spamming bulls strike on stationary targets, spamming guardian, spamming patient without any worries of being interrupted and sometimes some teams even made me switch to 40/40 HP set and use WoH. It was like... wow these guys are rly tough they made me use WoH.

I didnt have to watch which of my prot ench was getting corrupted by nec atm. I didnt have to take care of hexes. They were just vanishing in front of my eyes thanks to bugged spotless crap. I didnt even mind ranger standing next to me waiting for me to cast something like nub rangers usually do... happy times.

But I tried ZB recently and found out it worked properly (50% mark regardless of DF bonus). So Im on my pro ZB bar again Im happy and I rly enjoy monking in TA cuz it requires some skill once again (at least for me

).

Many of WoH monks in TA watch the party bar only and then they blow in gvg, they blow in HA as RC. So these guys might be glad8, they might make RA wammos happy, they might be celebrated by a fire ele with 4 sup runes on cuz the WoH miracle just filled his red bar full!

I admit WoH monks might have slightly better advantage while fighting the common balanced template thanks to spotless mind (omg Anet fix it). U just keep veil on ur ranger and spotless on ur warrior and gg and bb necro.

This post doesnt say WoH monk suxxx, dont get misled. But I have been running both bars for fairly long time so I can say which one is harder to play. Its the ZB one (ofc with 0 at HP... running ZB along with GoH is rly bad idea... mend cond is ur secondary heal just in the case of humility or dshot... and high DF helps ofc too).

The sad thing is patient spirit spammage is usually enough for victory.

Master Ketsu · Feb 20, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Patient is decent in TA because its a low cost, uninteruptable, and for the most part unstrippable 120+ heal for allies between the health of 50~80% ( lower would ask for a bigger heal, higher needs no heal ).

Essentially patient spirit is a superior replacement to orison of healing. Orison's purpose was a ( crappy ) filler heal for when your teammate had taken some damage, but wasn't in danger of dying. Patient spirit fills this role in a much more viable light.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Patient spirit is easily the best shatter-bait skill a monk could slot.

I would never waste a shatter on patient spirit unless it was their only enchant. There are many better things monks bring to shatter ( Gaurdian, SoA, PS, SB, ect. )

I Angra I · Feb 20, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I started using patient spirit on a WoH prot bar and I sort of like it now for TA/RA. It's a nice substitute for WoH when it's on recharge/is interrupted, and is really nice when combined with it for dealing with pressure.

itsvictor · Feb 20, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

A lot of people have already stated the reasons for using Patient vs. Rof, namely its ability to circumvent shutdown, and gives a strong condtional heal. Lol my friend runs it with contemplation of purity for migraine removal >_> and more epic healing.

Patrick Smit · Feb 25, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

In my opinion Patient spirit need be changed to last full duration before it can heal, upon premature removal or shattering no heal.

just an opinion, but now it's part of the insane part of the covenant spell spammers.

Riotgear · Feb 25, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

just an opinion, but now it's part of the insane part of the covenant spell spammers.

Isn't the problem with that the fact that Covenant's -25% healing does not affect Patient Spirit?

Patrick Smit · Feb 26, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Well the same counts for healing breeze and other enchantments, not so much of a problem I think. I find the fact that it is very hard to prevent the heal to land a problem. Other then with shame diversion you will not counter it, removing it results in a faster benefit for the target. Thats why I suggested it needs to stay for the complete duration and then naturally end to heal the enchanted target.

urania · Feb 27, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Other then with shame diversion you will not counter it

they have CoP for shame =o)
best monk skill being abused on one o the worst monk bars ever made *tear*

TheHaxor · Feb 27, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

I take it in GvG because it has good synergy with dismiss condition. I also take it as an alternate heal if WoH gets shut down. I do like RoF better, but the alternate large direct heal is invaluable if WoH happens to get shut down.

Besides, people always tell me to take it anyway (even though I probably wouldn't otherwise). I have to admit that it is a lot better than I originally thought.

Elean · Feb 27, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I take it in GvG because it has good synergy with dismiss condition. I also take it as an alternate heal if WoH gets shut down. I do like RoF better, but the alternate large direct heal is invaluable if WoH happens to get shut down.

I bring it in my GvG matches, too, but for different reasons.. First, I have to say that I don't find the synergy between Dismiss and Patient to be that good. Most of the time the target already gets healed full (or atleast full enough) with just Patient, or he's low enough for me to use WoH. Thus using the Dismiss would likely be just a waste of 5 energy. Patient + Dismiss does come in handy when WoH is shut down for some reason, though.

My reason for bringing Patient, is the occasional team that actually does some pressure instead of just the usual 3-2-1 spikes. Our RC bar doesn't have a direct heal on it, so I need the extra heal Patient gives (when compared to RoF, the alternative for that slot on my bar) when playing against hexes/degen in general. If there's a fully equipped Partygon in the build, bringing Patient probably isn't necessary, though. Also, the 1/4 cast time is good, of course, and it's nice to have a secondary heal if WoH is shut down. I've seen many mesmers say that if they hit that Diversion on WoH, their team is very likely to wipe/get kills on the other team. After switching to Patient, I've been able to survive pretty well even without being able to use WoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Besides, people always tell me to take it anyway (even though I probably wouldn't otherwise). I have to admit that it is a lot better than I originally thought.

I, too, was surprised by how good it actually was, after playing with it for the first couple of times. =)

Anyway, I usually don't bother bringing Patient with me to the Arenas (mainly RA, don't do much TA). RoF is just better there, when those elementalists spam Lightning Hammer on you. Although Patient is very good against Dazed/Migraine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

best monk skill being abused on one o the worst monk bars ever made *tear*

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that that Covenant bar is "one of the worst monk bars ever made"? At first, by just looking at the template someone threw out into the alliance chat, I thought it was terrible. I tried the bar in RA the other day, though and found it to actually be pretty good. It does promote mindless spamming and not very skillful play, but the bar itself serves the purpose of surviving without support in the Arenas really well.

the_deSKtructor · Feb 27, 2008, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elean

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that that Covenant bar is "one of the worst monk bars ever made"? At first, by just looking at the template someone threw out into the alliance chat, I thought it was terrible. I tried the bar in RA the other day, though and found it to actually be pretty good. It does promote mindless spamming and not very skillful play, but the bar itself serves the purpose of surviving without support in the Arenas really well.

I'm pretty sure that she refers to the fact that it doesn't really require a lot of skill to be played effectively, so it's bad for the game.

TheHaxor · Feb 27, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elean

First, I have to say that I don't find the synergy between Dismiss and Patient to be that good. Most of the time the target already gets healed full (or atleast full enough) with just Patient, or he's low enough for me to use WoH. Thus using the Dismiss would likely be just a waste of 5 energy. Patient + Dismiss does come in handy when WoH is shut down for some reason, though.

If the target is a bit above half and conditioned and you need the condy removed, I find it works very well. I see it happen all the time against sword wars, hammer wars, cripshots, and paragons. It allows me to save WoH in case something takes damage quickly and needs an active heal.

One thing I forgot to mention is how good it is against migraine. I ran into a hex build with a migraine mes and patient allowed me to maintain the party for an long period of time.

Also, I don't really like it in arenas because you generally are taking one monk and are are likely taking it in place of RoF. That means if you mess up a preprot against a spike, then your teammate is probably going to die. It's more acceptable to do when you have at least the other monk taking RoF.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 27, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

If the target is a bit above half and conditioned and you need the condy removed, I find it works very well. I see it happen all the time against sword wars, hammer wars, cripshots, and paragons. It allows me to save WoH in case something takes damage quickly and needs an active heal.

One thing I forgot to mention is how good it is against migraine. I ran into a hex build with a migraine mes and patient allowed me to maintain the party for an long period of time.

Also, I don't really like it in arenas because you generally are taking one monk and are are likely taking it in place of RoF. That means if you mess up a preprot against a spike, then your teammate is probably going to die. It's more acceptable to do when you have at least the other monk taking RoF.

Spikes in 4v4 arenas are pretty rare. Most of the time kills are gained through pressure (which allows mini-spikes to kill low targets) or short-term shutdown of the monk (daze, KD) and training stuff.

TheHaxor · Feb 27, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Spikes in 4v4 arenas are pretty rare. Most of the time kills are gained through pressure (which allows mini-spikes to kill low targets) or short-term shutdown of the monk (daze, KD) and training stuff.

I'm considering unloading adren or concentrated damage a spike for small arena intents and purposes.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 27, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I'm considering unloading adren or concentrated damage a spike for small arena intents and purposes, but thanks captain obvious.

Just saying. IMO the value of rof as a save for when you mess up the pre-prot is severely diminished in 4v4 due to the fact that it's much easier to recover from missing one, even with the slower skills on your bar.

In 4v4 the value of Rof is much more in it's resiliency, it's ability to get casts through the majority of shutdown. You aren't going to be glad that you had the RoF to catch a spike that you didn't see so much as you're going to be glad that you managed to get a cast through that dazed or magebane. It's these situations that patient spirit can come into competition with RoF, having a similar resiliency to shutdown, but sacrificing the speed for an arguably stronger effect.

TheHaxor · Feb 28, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Just saying. IMO the value of rof as a save for when you mess up the pre-prot is severely diminished in 4v4 due to the fact that it's much easier to recover from missing one, even with the slower skills on your bar.

I disagree. You take RoF because you know in any given match that it is likely going to be the difference between life and death for one or many of your teammates. In this respect, it is universal. It is just as important to have this ability in arenas as it is in the rest of Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

In 4v4 the value of Rof is much more in it's resiliency, it's ability to get casts through the majority of shutdown. You aren't going to be glad that you had the RoF to catch a spike that you didn't see so much as you're going to be glad that you managed to get a cast through that dazed or magebane.

You don't take RoF because you expect to be shut down. You take RoF because you expect your teammates to take damage, for mistakes to be made (by both you and your teammates), and for unexpected things to happen. The fact that you can use it while being raped is an added bonus.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 28, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I disagree. You take RoF because you know in any given match that it is likely going to be the difference between life and death for one or many of your teammates. In this respect, it is universal. It is just as important to have this ability in arenas as it is in the rest of Guild Wars.

You don't take RoF because you expect to be shut down. You take RoF because you expect your teammates to take damage, for mistakes to be made (by both you and your teammates), and for unexpected things to happen. The fact that you can use it while being raped is an added bonus.

Yes, but the nature of the when you're going to use RoF to save someone is usually different in 4v4. With neither the level of midline support for spikes nor 2 melee threats running around, pre-prots on spikes are much easier to follow and it is much easier to recover if you do miss the prot. Spikes simply don't have the threat behind them of taking down targets before a word or dismiss gets to them, so much more emphasis is put on simply keeping bars up to give yourself a buffer zone to use those more efficient heals rather than using RoF to buy yourself time, a job that patient spirit is arguably better at.

Because of this, one aspect of the mistake-catching nature of RoF, the fact that it will buy you time in case of a missed pre-prot, is relatively devalued. It simply isn't needed as much when instead of RoF->word when you miss the prot, you can usually just word and you'll get the target in time.

IMO the other major draw of RoF is in its resiliency to shutdown, which patient spirit does just as well, slightly better in some situations and slightly worse in others.

The value of RoF in catching missed spikes and other less common situations is still pretty big, but patient spirit brings a lot of nice things along also. It gives you a nice secondary bars-up skill to keep bars topped off when you don't want to use WoH (under 50 or you anticipate needing it soon) and also gives you a much better fallback option if WoH gets shut down.

Basically, I'm saying that the mistakes in 4v4 are less punishing and can be recovered from with skills besides RoF, opening up skills like patient spirit to be brought which can serve other auxiliary roles and back-up the absolutely vital functions on your bar.

urania · Feb 28, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

With neither the level of midline support for spikes nor 2 melee threats running around, pre-prots on spikes are much easier to follow and it is much easier to recover if you do miss the prot.

actually, a dual melee+ranger builds are quite common lately.

and spikes arent THAT rare either =p