Curse

Tab · Feb 15, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Because instagib combos with no warning have no place in high end PvP. They were simply implemented to satisfy naruto fanboys.

Slic · Feb 15, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I don't get it. IMO there is PLENTY of warning. You usually see a large purple triangle on someone's bar, there is 1-2 seconds of pause with the sin right next to the target, before the initial hit. And that usually involves the sin being in danger anyway...

But this is all a moot point now, because everyone QQ'ed enough to remove this exciting "the quick and the dead" element from the game.

Please, somebody enlighten me how 1-2 seconds is not enough time to react! I see rangers d-shotting guardian all the time!

wuzzman · Feb 15, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

its the moving half way across the map that bugs people. Generally defending against a sin is easy. Aside from Shroud of Silence (which can be made into nothing) and rigor mortis (that skill was never good so...) assassins your not dealing with a class that sees serious play outside of AB/RA ideally. Npc stuck in bases with troll urgent and heal sig as their only defense are generally where this thread gets its steam. Apparently sins kill the rather defenseless npcs too quickly and that generally pisses people off.

Combined that with stale flag stand play that has been brought about through player QQ'ing and now sin split becomes all the rage.

Its the same with splinter QQ, a AI problem that has nothing to do with its interaction between players. But since hard earned npc advantages can be wiped out by relatively stupid NPC behavior splinter should be hit because its the most effective at farming dumb behavior. You would figure balance should be directed at nerfing things that farm smart behavior as easily as dumb behavior, but not in guru, never in guru.

Slic · Feb 15, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

its the moving half way across the map that bugs people. Generally defending against a sin is easy. Aside from Shroud of Silence (which can be made into nothing) and rigor mortis (that skill was never good so...) assassins your not dealing with a class that sees serious play outside of AB/RA ideally. Npc stuck in bases with troll urgent and heal sig as their only defense are generally where this thread gets its steam. Apparently sins kill the rather defenseless npcs too quickly and that generally pisses people off.

Combined that with stale flag stand play that has been brought about through player QQ'ing and now sin split becomes all the rage.

Its the same with splinter QQ, a AI problem that has nothing to do with its interaction between players. But since hard earned npc advantages can be wiped out by relatively stupid NPC behavior splinter should be hit because its the most effective at farming dumb behavior. You would figure balance should be directed at nerfing things that farm smart behavior as easily as dumb behavior, but not in guru, never in guru.

I see.. So what this all means is I should stop posting here, because it isn't worth it trying to convince people (including the ANet dev team) to think more while playing. Thank you for your time.

Poise · Feb 16, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

Unfortunately, Anet seems deadset on keeping IAS's away from sins...

For good reason. Having an IAS makes instagib combos even more instagib-ish. But if the ability to create instagib combos is removed, then sins can safely have IAS skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Rubbish. Lack of a decent IAS is a tiny consideration.

A tiny consideration? Show me some warriors that can pressure effectively without an IAS. If it was of minor importance then presumably some warriors would opt to take something else instead, but every warrior I see brings both an IAS and a movement buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Sins simply aren't designed for pressure in any way at all, be that armor, attack skills, or class strengths.

I agree they aren't, but I said it was 'one of' the reasons, not 'the only' reason. Certainly low armor etc also contributes, but I think having reliable IAS/movement stances is a big step towards being able to provide melee pressure.

LifeInfusion · Feb 16, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Idea stemming off Zuranthium's idea of Lead-Dual:

Lead -Offhand-dual can be kept and then Duals can follow offhand OR LEAD attacks. If they follow offhands they strike twice as normal. If they follow Leads then they strike once and count as offhand attacks.

When you think about it, it makes sense. If an assassin strikes with the primary hand the offhand attack is on the return swing with the other hand.

Graphically, if we represent the strikes as vectors (rofl)

NORMALLY:
Lead
-->
Offhand
<--
Dual
-->
<--

DUAL after LEAD:
Lead
-->
Dual
<--

DUAL after DUAL after LEAD:
Dual 1
<--
Dual 2
-->

In other words, duals could count as offhands if offhand misses/is not used. Offhands could be reduced in damage and then given more utility ala Wild Strike/Golden Fang Strike.

EDIT: Maybe make all offhands interrupt attacks making assassins good for countering warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

For good reason. Having an IAS makes instagib combos even more instagib-ish. But if the ability to create instagib combos is removed, then sins can safely have IAS skills.

A tiny consideration? Show me some warriors that can pressure effectively without an IAS. If it was of minor importance then presumably some warriors would opt to take something else instead, but every warrior I see brings both an IAS and a movement buff.

I agree they aren't, but I said it was 'one of' the reasons, not 'the only' reason. Certainly low armor etc also contributes, but I think having reliable IAS/movement stances is a big step towards being able to provide melee pressure.

Assassins have as much attack speed as warriors on IAS. That's not the issue.
They also have Dash/Dark Escape (almost functionally the same as Enraging Charge since it ends when you hit).

Zuranthium · Feb 16, 2008, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I don't see the point to that. It still hinders the class. Would just be so much better if Duals could be prepped by any regular attack skill. That puts all of the current Lead and Offhand attacks on the same level, so some of them can be transformed into different utility abilities instead simply being another +damage attack for chains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Assassins have as much attack speed as warriors on IAS. That's not the issue.

?

Not true.

~Z

erk · Feb 16, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

...
Not true.

~Z

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_speed

The Dagger Mastery attribute indirectly increases attack rate via increasing the chance that an assassin will double strike. Dual Attack dagger skills always hit twice, also indirectly increasing attack rate. Dagger skill chains augmented with an attack speed increase from another profession can be devastating.

Zuranthium · Feb 17, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

No. It doesn't affect attack skills and even if it did, it wouldn't be the same.

Look at the time it takes to complete Evis + Exec under Frenzy, compared to a Sin doing two regular attack skills.

~Z

C2K · Feb 17, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_speed

The Dagger Mastery attribute indirectly increases attack rate via increasing the chance that an assassin will double strike. Dual Attack dagger skills always hit twice, also indirectly increasing attack rate. Dagger skill chains augmented with an attack speed increase from another profession can be devastating.

You can't double strike on dagger skills unless they are dual attacks, in which you swing twice anyway. So without IAS, your skills fire off at regular speed, unlike warrior in Frenzy. This is why BoA was so popular a year ago.

erk · Feb 17, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

You can't double strike on dagger skills unless they are dual attacks, in which you swing twice anyway. So without IAS, your skills fire off at regular speed, unlike warrior in Frenzy. This is why BoA was so popular a year ago.

Perhaps you need to read up on Double Strike some more

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Double_strike

blue.rellik · Feb 17, 2008, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Hitting twice =/= attacking faster. It's is theoretically possible that in a fight, you never double-strike outside of skills

DutchSmurf · Feb 17, 2008, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Perhaps you need to read up on Double Strike some more

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Double_strike

Why would he, he is right after all. Double Strikes can only happen during normal attacking and when using a Dual Attack. Since the best way to pressure with an assassin is using its skills, the double strike part hardly matters at all. It only matters on a bar running skills to higher your dps. Like Locust's Fury and Conjure X.

On a related note, since some attack skills on the assassin have a 1/2 second activation, their attacks do come faster then those of a warrior. But that has nothing to do with Double Strikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Hitting twice =/= attacking faster. It's is theoretically possible that in a fight, you never double-strike outside of skills

Followed by a match in which every attack is a double-strike. So while it isn't a constant number, on the long term it does mean attacking faster.

Riotgear · Feb 17, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Let me put it this way, if Frenzy didn't affect attack skills, it would be pretty bad.

JR · Feb 17, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

Show me some warriors that can pressure effectively without an IAS. If it was of minor importance then presumably some warriors would opt to take something else instead, but every warrior I see brings both an IAS and a movement buff.

The bring an IAS because they can, and it would be stupid not to. Frenzy does not require spec or secondary. That doesn't mean that they can't pressure without it.

Watch any mediocre Warrior on obs mode. They will still be pushing bars down whilst not under Frenzy, far more effectively than an Assassin ever could.

acerbity · Mar 06, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

much benefit

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 06, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

TLDR: The Assassin and Ritualist are classes that are going to continually cause grief in serious PvP, regardless of regular skill balancing. The classes as a whole are in dire need an overhaul.

quoted for epic truth

i would love to see a overhaul in the coming nerfs

i get bored of this 1-2-3-4-5 crap tbh

Medion · Mar 06, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Ok, here are some suggestions I put together this afternoon considering assasins. (Typed it more like an essay than forum post really, but I think it puts the point accros)

Ok, so I don't think the 'Make-it-prophecies-only' group isn't going to get very far with their suggestion. Now, I'm not sure if suggesting radical changes to a class is going to make Arenanet change them either, but I do think that chance is a lot larger.

Right now, the assasin in PvP is a one-dimensional character. You need at least 3 attack skills in a certain chain to kill stuff, and shadowsteps are abused to jump out of danger instantly. Right now, from a GvG-standpoint all they are good for is ganking the enemy base.

Arenanet and probably quite a few PvE'ers want the assasin to remain the 'get-in-and-kill' type of character, but that's exactly what makes it so one-dimensional.
So here's the solution I thought up (inspired by many other posts).

Change Lead-Offhand-Dual (L-O-D).
Remove the offhand attacks and either buff them a tiny bit to the level of duals or nerf them a tiny bit to the level of lead attacks.
The way assasin-attacks should work in my opinion is that the lead attack should be worth the energy but nothing all exciting (do +dmg, cause bleeding/poison, perhaps an expensive, conditional knockdown), but the good part comes from the dual attacks. Basically, the dual attacks should be slightly stronger than skills as Eviscarate for the fact that they require a lead attack (not too strong though).

Example of a (in my opinion) good lead attack:
Black Mantis Thrust
It is quite spammable allowing for the character to switch more.

Example of a (in my opinion) good dual attack:
Twisting Fangs
It isn't as spammable (once every 15 sec) but it is quite a good skill which really does add on spikes.

Besides these suggestions, make the lead-attacks stay on the target for 20 seconds. It's currently 15 (quickly measured in balthazar temple, so correct me if I'm wrong), this would make assasins a little more flexible with their dual attacks.

Shadow Steps
I personally think skills as Death's Charge and even Shadow Prison aren't much of a problem. I don't like them but a simple nerf as suggested in other threads (easily interupted, skill-disabling). The problem is those skills which make the assasin uncatchable. Those being Recall, Aura of Displacement and the like. Return and Death's retreat I see as less of a problem as they are still only casting range and require an ally nearby.
I say drop the troublesome shadowsteps:
Recall
Shadow Meld
Shadow of Haste
Aura of Displacement
Rework them in some way. Perhaps make Shadow Step spells their own line (kind of like the way enchantments are different) and make one of those a skill which causes the next shadowstep to be a little bit cheaper.

Another idea I had for shadowsteps was making them count as lead attacks. This would make the assasins a little more flexible, allowing them to only take one lead attack, a shadowstep and one, possibly two, dual attacks. This would open up the rest of their bar for utility.

Now I've only covered the shadow-step skills and the way I think dagger should work. Now what I had in mind for the other two attributes (Shadow and Deadly Arts) was this:

Deadly Arts;
This should be the utility to kill or annoy enemies. Snare people (though not as strong as siphon speed), reduce their damage, interupts, KD's (maybe even something like gale) and enchantremovals

Shadow Arts:
These should be utility to survive and help allies. Several selfheals of the quality of Shadow Refuge (or perhaps slightly better) which work in different ways. This would allow freedom for the assasin to take what works best for them. Also perhaps some condition removal, a little bit of energy management and speed boosts.

Then the last change I have in mind is slightly upping the damage of daggers (obviously changing attack skills accordingly). I'd think something in the range of 12-22 would make them better suited for pressure.

Now I realize I'm not one of the people who has experienced high-end GvG a lot, but I do think that this will at least improve the situation there, while being a bit more viable than removing assasins considering PvE. Assasins should be more skillfull to play and flexible like this I think, without having to rely on chains as much. Even if these suggestions are silly or stupid or whatever, I do hope that it inspires others in a way.