Curse

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Mar 21, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

i dont get why'd you bring up shadow form, but ayways spellbreaker says fail, which means you can cast, but it will fail. shadow walk says cannot CAST, not "enchantments fail". i dont get how this isnt a bug

Patrick Smit · Mar 21, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I was bringing different descriptions up to show it's a BUG, and that the descriptions are consistent with how they normally function. I'm certainly not defending the use of this skill combination.

Lorekeeper · Mar 21, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia-Louis Dreyfus

i dont get why'd you bring up shadow form, but ayways spellbreaker says fail, which means you can cast, but it will fail. shadow walk says cannot CAST, not "enchantments fail". i dont get how this isnt a bug

yeh, in which case i think shroud of silence would need to be updated too, since you can cast while its on you, your casts just fail.

i think the inconsistency is in the meaning of ''you cant cast''. Currently ''you cant cast'' means ''your cast fails''. Under strict interpretation, ''cant cast'' means ''you cannot attempt to cast'' which could require a game mechanic similiar to blackout... with shroud of silence blacking out all spells and shadow walk blacking out all enchantment spells. So the debate is whether not being able to cast means failing to complete a cast or not being able to activate the cast in the first place. The game seems to define casting as the successful casting of a spell, rather than the activation of a spell.

If they are working as intended, Anet need to reword them to say ''your spells fail'' or ''your enchantments fail'' rather than ''you cant cast spells or enchantments''.

i really must make it very clear that even though this seems to be an exploit of a bugged skill... so far i see it beating teams who havent got a clue what the build is. You kite from the necros, you interrupt the snares, you dont stand still while the necro is next to you. On altar maps you need to interrupt the spellbreaker (if they have them) and strip the enchants from the necros. Teams with 2 necros are harder to counter on altar maps but i seriously wonder at the quality of HA teams if this build continues to reach HoH even after a few days and people realise what it is.

DarkNecrid · Mar 21, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

It's been known for awhile that "can't cast" is the same as "fail".

Vow of Silence works like this.

ETC.

"Can't cast" is ArenaNet's terminology for an Activation prevention ability on ones self, because otherwise it would be "and all Enchantment's you cast fail".

Which is shorter?

Exactly.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 21, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

So what triggers all this damage? The necro spamming enchants on itself?

Patrick Smit · Mar 21, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Now Vow of silence prevents u from being able to use the skill, u can press the button, but u wont be able to even start the activation.

Same with shroud of silence, no activation possible, including the warning, so different then fail. Learn to accept that skill is bugged darknecrid, or that the description of shadow walk and vampiric spirit are not ok.

Zuranthium · Mar 21, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia-Louis Dreyfus

try playing TA every other match is this crap

Yep, it's totally ridiculous.

~Z

DarkNecrid · Mar 21, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

So what triggers all this damage? The necro spamming enchants on itself?

It's simple.

Cultist's Fervor:
For 5...17 seconds, your spells cost -7 Energy to cast, but you sacrifice 30...18% Maximum Health each time you cast a Spell.

NOTE: Casting a spell, is just using it. If a spell fails, you still "cast" it.

Shadow Walk
Shadow Step to target foe. For 30 seconds, you cannot cast Enchantments. When this Stance ends, you return to your original location.

NOTE: Cannot cast means that using a skill (an Enchantment, in this case) will cause it to "fail".

Dark Aura
For 30 seconds, whenever target ally sacrifices Health, Dark Aura deals 5...41 shadow damage to adjacent foes, and you lose 5...17 Health.

NOTE: "lose" is actually "take damage". Thus, with Dark Aura, you can use any Enchantment with Cultist's Fervor, since failing a spell will make it auto-recharge, to deal mass damage.

EDIT NOTE: And this is where Mark of Protection comes in, since it negates the damage you take from Dark Aura.

That's how it works in a nutshell.

Sun Fired Blank · Mar 21, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

I never thought anything could singlehandedly make every format unfun, but this does it.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 21, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

It's simple.

Cultist's Fervor:
For 5...17 seconds, your spells cost -7 Energy to cast, but you sacrifice 30...18% Maximum Health each time you cast a Spell.

NOTE: Casting a spell, is just using it. If a spell fails, you still "cast" it.

Shadow Walk
Shadow Step to target foe. For 30 seconds, you cannot cast Enchantments. When this Stance ends, you return to your original location.

NOTE: Cannot cast means that using a skill (an Enchantment, in this case) will cause it to "fail".

Dark Aura
For 30 seconds, whenever target ally sacrifices Health, Dark Aura deals 5...41 shadow damage to adjacent foes, and you lose 5...17 Health.

NOTE: "lose" is actually "take damage". Thus, with Dark Aura, you can use any Enchantment with Cultist's Fervor, since failing a spell will make it auto-recharge, to deal mass damage.

EDIT NOTE: And this is where Mark of Protection comes in, since it negates the damage you take from Dark Aura.

That's how it works in a nutshell.

Oh, I see now. So any enchantment works?

DarkNecrid · Mar 21, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Oh, I see now. So any enchantment works?

Any Enchantment works, since it'll fail and cause you to sac, which will cause you to deal damage with DA, and since the skill fails, it auto recharges, so if you set like 8 keys to the skill you want to fail, and mash all 8 keys really fast, you'll deal DA damage like crazy.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 21, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Any Enchantment works, since it'll fail and cause you to sac, which will cause you to deal damage with DA, and since the skill fails, it auto recharges, so if you set like 8 keys to the skill you want to fail, and mash all 8 keys really fast, you'll deal DA damage like crazy.

So this literally IS the roll head on keyboard build.

Targuil · Mar 21, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I know this is pvp section, but i wonder if you could farm with this bugged shit...

*puts flame shield on*

Snow Bunny · Mar 21, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I'll believe this is a bug. I just don't understand how it works. Are they simply cancel-casting at high-speed to trigger Dark Aura with the life sac?

Lorekeeper · Mar 21, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Well shadow walk is different to all other skills that prevent casting.

Shadow Shroud prevents attempts to cast enchantments. ''Cannot be the target of enchantment spells'' = ''you cannot attempt to cast enchantment spells on target''. No nrg loss since enchantment spells dont even activate.

Shroud of Silence prevents attempts to cast any spells. 'Cannot cast spells'' = ''cannot activate spells''. No nrg loss since spells dont even activate.

Vow of Silence prevents attempts to cast any spells. ''Cannot cast spells'' = ''Cannot activate spells''. No nrg loss since spells dont even activate.

Shadow Walk says ''You cannot cast enchantments''. Logically you would expect this restriction to work like the above 2 examples Shroud of Silence and Vow of Silence. Shadow shroud uses different wording even though it achieves the same effect of not being able to activate an enchantment spell.

The 1 example where a skill can cause the failure of a spell cast and the loss of nrg that follows is Spellbreaker. It says ''enemy spells targetted against target ally fail'' it doesnt say you 'cannot cast spells'' it says ''they fail''. The casting of spells is possible, so you bear the costs of casting, however they fail, so the effect of the spell is lost.

''Cannot cast spell'' in GW means exactly that, and is represented by no nrg loss from attempts to cast. Skills cannot even be activated.

''Spell fails'' in GW means spell activation but spell failure. Energy is lost because you do activate your spells. They just dont succeed.

Shadow Walk has the effect as if it should say ''your enchantment spells fail while in this stance'' or something along those lines. In parallel to Spellbreaker and ''fail'' type skills.

If Shadow Walk should work as it currently says it should work ''you cannot cast enchantments''. It should work like Vow of Silence or Shroud of Silence and prevent the activation of enchantment spells and all ''cannot cast'' type skills.

So either the effect of the skill is wrong, or the description is wrong. If the description is correct the build should get a fix. If the description is wrong, the build wont get a fix.

But the fact remains, whether it gets changed or not is academic, and really only a matter of consistency. The build is not as good as might appear when you first lose to it, and is only really strong in a 3 way altar match.

natural_Causes · Mar 21, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I will agree, its overpowered. Whether or not it's a bug or exploit is all up to your inturpretation of the description of the skill. Whether it is or not, it will be nerfed very soon. Until then, may I recommend Well of Profane, Signet of Disenchantment, or a Rit with the spirit Disenchantment. A Sythe Sin with Dark Apostasy would also be effective at removing enchantments, with high enough Critical Strikes.

Tab · Mar 21, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'll believe this is a bug. I just don't understand how it works. Are they simply cancel-casting at high-speed to trigger Dark Aura with the life sac?

Cultists Fervor = every spell you cast, whether or not it finishes casting, costs nothing and does about 40 AoE armor ignoring damage.
Shadow Walk means you can't cast enchants for the duration, so all of your spells insta-fail, meaning they have 0 cast time, 0 aftercast, 0 recharge.
Cast your enchants, use Shadow Walk, spam some N/A enchant and youre doing 200 AoE DPS.

Zena Starlight · Mar 21, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

What an interesting skill combo to say the least. Why are all these build coming out just now. These skills are not newly buffed whatso ever. Scythe sins and Dark Aura bombers. What else do people have under their sleeves?

DRGN · Mar 21, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

They probably got bored and tried to see what they could exploit. This is so much like the old Exhausting Assault Sand Shards thing in the NPE that it's not even funny. Had a 17 game win streak ruined because of this thing. The monks pull spellbreaker on him and have a 2-3 monk backline. I think one of the monks had a snare(Might have been Signet of Pious Restraint on Mo/D). Good luck getting away from that.

Mysterial · Mar 21, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zena Starlight

What an interesting skill combo to say the least. Why are all these build coming out just now. These skills are not newly buffed whatso ever. Scythe sins and Dark Aura bombers. What else do people have under their sleeves?

It almost certainly was caused by the Glyph change.