Curse

Zaiden · Mar 26, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

the title says everything. I have seen alot of discussion about this not being a balance and this being a balance.

Now, I'd like get a clear definition of the term "balanced build" -> The fact that lego isn't considered balanced confuses me alot :S.

Thx for answering =)

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 26, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Not sure on the 'official' definition but I see it is a team that is focused on winning on one strategy only and cannot do much else if this is threatened. For example, if you're running 4 SF eles and for some reason all the enemies are immune to burning and fire damage in general, you're screwed. Theres nothing you can do to adapt to this.

Kyp Jade · Mar 26, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Lego is in fact the easiest balanced build to run, it just became so popular it got termed a gimmick.

Build design leaves you with three roads to travel on

Damage
Defense
Shutdown

A Balanced build is one that incorporates all three, without resorting to abusing broken game mechanics

Zaiden · Mar 26, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Lego is in fact the easiest balanced build to run, it just became so popular it got termed a gimmick.

Build design leaves you with three roads to travel on

Damage
Defense
Shutdown

A Balanced build is one that incorporates all three, without resorting to abusing broken game mechanics

Thx alot. the last part was sweet and short =)

Killed u man · Mar 26, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Lego is in fact the easiest balanced build to run, it just became so popular it got termed a gimmick.

Build design leaves you with three roads to travel on

Damage
Defense
Shutdown

A Balanced build is one that incorporates all three, without resorting to abusing broken game mechanics

Well, that's close to... I myself couldn't come up with a better definition, but leave out the "without resorting to" part ^^

Diversion is "balanced" nowdays? 1 minute disable, "spammable" (12 sec !=20+), "only" 10 energy NON-elite spells ftw?
No, I'm not calling for a diversion nerf, but by all means, "balanced" does not mean you don't abuse broken skills. (Won't even start on Ranger-Interrupts)

In the end, it does comes down to this:
People who play balanced feel better of themselves and EVERYTHING else is lame... This is a general given that can be seen in daily HA/GvG...

E.G,: Getting called "lame" by a Legoway when runnign ritspike is kinda ironic. Half legowaybars are as broken as rits AND actually require less skill to run... (Fire spam, T-space?) The mesmer is the only bar that requires somewhat skill. (Monks in HA is hard, but not as hard as it used to be, nowadays it's more Rock-Paper-Scissors anyways) Even the warrior bars have been reduced to 3-2-1 spike tools, just because of the HoH mechanics and Cap-Points. (Spiking someone who goes back > sending a person back for a minute)

Balance in skills is easy to see tough

E.G: R/D way is lame, requires no skill and farms fame like a crazy motafuca... So this can be concidered the template for what is totally non-balanced... (Nerf Scythe Dmg + AoE, huray)

Anyways, IF you're looking for a definition, I doubt you'll get a "decent" one, because it will be either given by a person who plays balanced, and will thus be "pro"-balanced, or by a person who plays gimmicks, and will thus be anti-balanced...

Divinus Stella · Mar 26, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

"Legoway" is just a term people use for balanced build that has 2 paragons with defensive anthem, the build itself varies widely, some people use a dervish up front, others replace the fire elementalist with a ritualist while others drop an elementalist or mesmer for a 3rd monk.

Dual DA is a staple of most balanced builds because most of the current fotm builds rely heavily on either 4 rangers with scythes or 4 rangers with hornbows, both of which can be completely nullified by 2 elite slots, mainly because gimmics are notorious for lacking shutdown.

Balanced to me is any build with a frontline/midline/backline, any build which breaks that pattern tends to fall into the gimmic catagory.

Leetwalrushunter · Mar 26, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Balanced Builds IMO are ones that allow you to buy reefer on the cheap

Kyp Jade · Mar 26, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

I dont feel better than a random ritspiker for running balanced, I just know that I am more flexible in both tactics and applications of the builds I run. When I make a build I spec for utility.

And shutdown has many forms. In HA a bsurge can be considered shutdown since nobody knows wtf to do with draw conditions.

Interuption is another form of shutdown. Dual DA builds are very common. SO common in fact I run an off mesmer interupt just to keep them down.
Choking gas was a good example of shutdown in the factions days.

Also none of todays 'legoways' have nearly as much flexibility as the old setup. And I hardly consider fire eles broken.

The build I played tonight I developed over a month ago as a direct counter to legoway. Ironically I also run dual DA paragons. And I also think with my setup I can pump out more pressure than any fire ele can.

Krazy Kat · Mar 26, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

What is termed "balanced" is all an opinion. Throughout the months, different builds have been given different names. There have been many "balanced builds". Roles like Energy denial mesmers, Dual Defensive Anthem, Bonders, Tainted Warders, Melandru's/Poison arrow rangers and Shock warriors have all been defined as a part of the balanced build of their time. The traditional balanced build incorporates monks and generally gets the approval of the general HA population.

What I define as a balanced build is one that has adequate damage, defense and flexibility to adapt to any team it goes up against. Once you start specializing to say a hex pressure build or add a smiting monk into the build it is no longer "balanced". You lose something once you start adjusting for more damage instead of say a mesmer with PD. A good balanced team can come up to any enemy it faces and adjust their strategy to win.

One may argue that certain other builds are "balanced" but it all depends on the general consensus of the community.

kranius · Mar 26, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

So-called "balanced" teams are designed in purpose not to fame farming, but to win halls (which is HA's goal IMO). They need coordination, strategy and flexibility.

Kyp Jade statement is so true, it has to include Damage, Defense, and Shutdown abilities, without any abuse of non-nerfed skills.

A good balanced will adapt to it's enemy whereas gimmicks will use prebuilt strategy, and use it all the time, even if it is the worse strat to use.

Hope i'm understood ( English isn't my first language ^^)

C2K · Mar 26, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Balanced to me is any build with a frontline/midline/backline, any build which breaks that pattern tends to fall into the gimmic catagory.

I would agree that this is the best definition of a balanced team.

yakuza · Mar 26, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranius

So-called "balanced" teams are designed in purpose not to fame farming, but to win halls

couldn't agree more with u

Horace The Great · Mar 26, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Balanced build has a balance between heal,prot,dmg and shutdown.

A/D, 2 GA ranger, 1ele, 2N/Rt ,2mo's for example not balanced, more rainbow spike.

Lego is balanced yes.

And agree on the not a fame farm build, but win halls. (btw running a good balanced will probably get you more fame then running fame farm

)

yakuza · Mar 26, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

(btw running a good balanced will probably get you more fame then running fame farm

)

indeed but its not very easy to get together enough good ppl for a good balanced

Kyp Jade · Mar 26, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

It is pretty tough to get good people for it. Thats why you run with friends all the time. But even then friends arent always good enough, you have to teach then explicitly how to run a character in a build if you are playing non-meta balanced.

When you ask someone to play something, let them know how you want it done, dont expect it to be done. This isnt a rank issue, its a build philosophy your trying to explain.

As example, It suprised me at first how few people that you put on paragon know how to do damage, instead they wait for the 3-2-1 to use thier skills. Sometimes you even have to explain thats what you want them to do.

kranius · Mar 26, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakuza

indeed but its not very easy to get together enough good ppl for a good balanced

True if you pug.

But with guildies it's smooth

and FL helps a lot : play with poeple you are comfortable with, and this is how good guilds form : people enjoying playing together

bas koopman · Mar 26, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

My definition of balanced is a build capable of pressuring and spiking evenly well. Teams like escapeway or IWAY can't spike, while rangerspike or IV can't pressure well

Whammo · Mar 26, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Balanced is more of a mindset/playstyle rather then a build. You just pick a build you can do that with. As for the legoway, it is pretty much a spike build. And a spike builds isn't balanced.

danilovic · Mar 26, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Balanced is a build that through skill has a chance to beat everything in any objective (except when getting ganked) IMO.

Kyp Jade · Mar 26, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas koopman

My definition of balanced is a build capable of pressuring and spiking evenly well. Teams like escapeway or IWAY can't spike, while rangerspike or IV can't pressure well

thats why they are gimmicks, they are completly one dimensional

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whammo

Balanced is more of a mindset/playstyle rather then a build. You just pick a build you can do that with. As for the legoway, it is pretty much a spike build. And a spike builds isn't balanced.

legoway could be a pressure build if people running it realized what a waste the rit was. But its also a mindset, when it first came about it was nothing BUT a spike build, the fire ele was just for cap pts and to keep HP bars from being topped off in a 1v1 fight. (back then they had LoD and u wanted him busy casting LoD during a spike, leaving the catch solely on your prot)

The difference between a good lego and a bad lego is a good one knows how to pressure (3 physicals ffs you can get some respectable damage out with that). Sadly very few people in HA know about target switching as melee, or how to do anything but 3-2-1 on paragon. Ive seen about 3 teams play the build right since it first came about, the rest are just spikers.
--
on that note of pressuring

Theres two ways to achieve pressure
Monk doesnt have enough energy to cast spells
Monk is waiting for spells to recharge

By far the easiest method is the first, all you have to do is keep channeling down for any decent length of time.

The second method is MUCH better to try for. Dont worry about the heal monk so much as you worry about the prot monk. When the prot monk is forced to cast a million times a second, your not only draining his energy, there are times when he has to wait for guardian or spirit bond to recharge. In that time you can do MOAR DAMAGE!!! Heals alone cant keep up with constant dps, your job is the protter. (hint for the pve'ers that are about to HA this weekend, its called target switching when they prot the guy your on)

Theres a good thread on QQ forums if you have no idea what im talking about. Its stickied even.