Curse

Tearz1993 · Mar 15, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

HA doesn't have a high entry barrier. You can go to HA ID1, invite random people and off you go. You can't even do that in football...
I myself don't even play for fame no more, purely for fun. (Gues what, it's a game)

There isn't many "good" HA'ers left.
A "Good" PvP'er imo needs to have 4 things:
-> Know EVERY SKILL, EVERY MAP, EVERY BUILD, so that no mater what you're always prepared.
-> Can call a group on it's own. (Like Kyp said, this is needed to win Cap Points in a non-headless-chicken way.) This is the biggest problem with the new people. They REFUSE to call. Not because to can't, but because they expect someone else to do the dirty work for them...
-> Has experience with EVERY profession in any build. A person who NEVER played thumper/IWAY warrior doesn't have any rights to call the build lame. If you NEVER tried drugs, who are you to judge they are bad? Same goes in PvP/HA: If you never tried a degenerative build, it would be inappropriate to start calling these builds lame...
-> Patience/eagerness to keep learning: This is also something that new people lack. (And ALOT of the current R9+ Thump Players). I am PUG'ing EVERY day in HA with "Fresh" builds. HA has 4 districts ever since the last update, yet I can't find anyone. Why is that? Because people refuse to play ANY other build than the one they played for their intire GW carreer, untill it gets nerfed. Even then, they look for something similar to replace it, just so they won't have to learn a new type of play. Perfect example: R/D replaced the thumper.

As long as degenerative button-bash builds exist, HA will never know active times again. Anet has 3 options:
- Let it die out, the way it is going now. (The last skill updates were nice, but still primary for GvG)
- Promote "more" gimmick builds. If there is 10+ viable gimmick builds (As in the "golden" ages of tombs), you can actually run different "gimmick" bars. Atleast the experience people have will reach further than the ranger button-bash fest it is now.
- Keep balancing (Mainly nerfing) HA. Start with hitting the ANY degenerative build. HA can be fixed with hitting no more than 40 skills tops...

Elitism didn't kill HA, PvE farmers did...

And as final a "small" list of examples of WHAT exactly should be nerfed:

- N/Rt Healers
- Signet of Sorrow
- Dual Shot/Forked Arrow (Not the skill themselves, but the endless buffs they got from Brutal + Para + Cracked armor)
- Paragons: SoR/DA, Spear Damage should compare to that of a sword, mayby even less.
- Expertise + Non-Ranger skills.
- Scythe Damage needs to get reduced OR remove the AoE.
- A/D's need a hit. Either do this by lower crit damage or "nerfing" Critical Strikes.
- "Make Haste" and "Fallback": Ends if target ally becomes target of a spell. Promotes "active shutdown on mesmer on relic runs.
- Buff Windborne Speed
- Assa Caster still need a small hit.
- Shattering Assault sins will become more popular after N/Rt nerf. Common sense tells us a small nerf here as well wouldn't do us bad.
- Reduce overal "Spike damage" on skills. I have a nice thread in HA-builds with all kinds of imba spikes I made. These need to be nerfed, otherwise it will become a pure spike meta.
- Nerf channeling to nearby range, mayby even adjecent. Promotes "active" movement on the monks as well as non-brainless spamming skills in HoH, whilst channel-tanking.
- Promote "active" e-management: OoB, Mantra of Recall, Pdrain, Leech Sig. Some of these aren't that active (OoB/Recall), but atleast it's better than the channeling "trigger and forget" monks.
- HoH objectives suck, I gues I have QQ'ed enough about it in different thread to prove me right on this one

I can keep on going on this list, but seeing Anet doesn't care about HA, there is no point. (I'll admit, I did get dragged into this post a bit

Then again, I'm still very eager to see HA getting fixed)

QFT except for the Make Haste and Fallback nerfs... don't really see a point, it's really easy to snare in HoH or temples anyways (choke points are fun)

hurdlebeast · Mar 15, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

it seems like the ones that get all mad and say "quit bitching start playing" are the ones already with rank, so obviously it's not a problem for them....

Tearz1993 · Mar 15, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

make your own guild and stop complaining. talk to people who HA and ask for help... they shouldn't babysit you, just ask for advice or something instead of messing up their group because you don't know what to do.

Lorekeeper · Mar 15, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurdlebeast

I'm just saying that maybe, if you want varied, dynamic, fun HA battles, mebbe you could get more people involved by being nice to the newbies, not saying "I had to go through it, and I hated it, so why shouldn't you go through it too?"

I have a few questions just so i can understand your thought processes.

1) Do you play HA? How long have you played HA?

2) Do you really believe that including newbies in all teams is going to create varied, dynamic and fun HA battles?

3) How do you think this will happen? Explain

thanks in advance

hurdlebeast · Mar 16, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

well, maybe if you put more people into an area of the game, you will get more varied results. you put more new players in, they develop their own play styles, you get different builds. there's your dynamic. and since HA is "dead" i can only imagine what that means: the same teams dominating over and over again.

no i have not played HA. this, of course means that i'm a good for nothing PVE'r that doesn't know anything about that game, and who should go back to lame pve else "stop whining and start playing" blah blah blah.

this is becoming a stupid, redundant argument, and therefore i'm done arguing. have fun kids!

Killed u man · Mar 16, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurdlebeast

well, maybe if you put more people into an area of the game, you will get more varied results. you put more new players in, they develop their own play styles, you get different builds. there's your dynamic. and since HA is "dead" i can only imagine what that means: the same teams dominating over and over again.

no i have not played HA. this, of course means that i'm a good for nothing PVE'r that doesn't know anything about that game, and who should go back to lame pve else "stop whining and start playing" blah blah blah.

this is becoming a stupid, redundant argument, and therefore i'm done arguing. have fun kids!

Lol, you pretty much said it yourself. You don't play HA, WHY should you be expressing your feelings about this issue?

You're tired of the "PvE-noob" arguement? I'm tired of the "Elite PvP'ers don't give new people a chance"-arguement.

When we started playing, we did NOT get any help either. I'm sorry, but you can always go to ebay.com if you want someone to get you a tiger/buy an account...

Actually form groups yourself, and stop QQ'ing about "Elite PvP'ers"

Lorekeeper · Mar 16, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurdlebeast

well, maybe if you put more people into an area of the game, you will get more varied results. you put more new players in, they develop their own play styles, you get different builds. there's your dynamic. and since HA is "dead" i can only imagine what that means: the same teams dominating over and over again.

no i have not played HA. this, of course means that i'm a good for nothing PVE'r that doesn't know anything about that game, and who should go back to lame pve else "stop whining and start playing" blah blah blah.

this is becoming a stupid, redundant argument, and therefore i'm done arguing. have fun kids!

the only thing that is a stupid argument is reading that you think you know how to fix HA even when you dont even play it. I asked a simple question to gauge the amount of background knowledge you had to enable you to understand the myriad types of issues that are involved in this discussion about HA... we are talking about almost 3 years of history.

i think your decision to stop contributing to this discussion after i exposed the lack of background knowledge you have is telling.

Whats even more ironic, and sadly so, is your suggested logic that more players = more build variety doesnt even apply to PvE where there are hundreds of thousands of players who even have access to dozens more PvE-Only skills. You wanna go clear underworld? Get high rank norn/asura etc? Clear FoW? Well i couldnt help but notice how Ursanway seem to dominate all of these activities - so much so that i see discussions surrounding the broken nature of ursanway dominate the riverside forum. The simple lesson is, it doesnt matter how many players there are in any given format, if there are glaring imbalances and clearly dominant builds, those players are going to run them, especially the ones who only care about farming titles/fame/rank etc etc.

That is where the parallel lies between HA and PvE. Both are dominated by builds that allow its players to farm the relative titles with the least amount of effort.

And what prevents that from happening? The proper balancing of skills to prevent the possibility of these kinds of builds.

What happens when popular farming builds get nerfed in PvE? Endless QQ threads, fix soul reaping, revert minion limits, prevent monsters scattering in AoE. What did Anet do? They gave PvErs Ursan and insane PvE skills like Seed of Life and Pain inverter - PvE for dummies.

What happens when builds get nerfed in HA? People find more... i bet Anet are sick and tired of fixing their broken game time after time. HA is the best place to find imbalance in GW, not because the builds are particularly insane, but because there is ALWAYS something being exploited. That only tells us how badly Anet has managed skill balance in this game... badly implemented new classes, badly implemented new skills, badly implemented new mechanics and maps.

please, if you dont have the background knowledge on a topic, dont presume to know the answers for the issues being discussed in that topic, for all you know there could be a huge variety of things you are not aware of. Its not a threat to your intellect to be in this situation, since as you said yourself, you dont play HA, but it is a show of ignorance to believe that you could contribute as comprehensively as you seem to think you can while lacking all the necessary background information to do so.

making suggestions to add more ideas to the table is one thing, making suggestions while criticising an entire portion of a gaming community while not even able to grasp the whole issue in its entirety is another.

MisterT69 · Mar 16, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Listen, there's way more to GW than HA. Believe me, if you think HA is the l33t part of guild wars, boy are you wrong. HA is worse than point grinding in PVE imo. There's not much special about HA. Your team has an l33t setup. Your opponents have an l33t setup. Woop-dee-doo. Now let's look at PVE. OB tank rounds up 20+ foes and holds em properly. SH or SF eles launch their MS and burn away the enemy while SS deals the backup dmg. You watch the greatest fireworks display in GW. That, imo > "sry noob, no rank, no go" or "where the hell is everyone in HA? Oh that's right, they're pwning the most l33t areas in guild wars and making a hell of a lot more money than me"

Killed u man · Mar 16, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

Listen, there's way more to GW than HA. Believe me, if you think HA is the l33t part of guild wars, boy are you wrong. HA is worse than point grinding in PVE imo. There's not much special about HA. Your team has an l33t setup. Your opponents have an l33t setup. Woop-dee-doo. Now let's look at PVE. OB tank rounds up 20+ foes and holds em properly. SH or SF eles launch their MS and burn away the enemy while SS deals the backup dmg. You watch the greatest fireworks display in GW. That, imo > "sry noob, no rank, no go" or "where the hell is everyone in HA? Oh that's right, they're pwning the most l33t areas in guild wars and making a hell of a lot more money than me"

Besides the fact I'm missing the point of your thread. (If you're trying to say that nobody cares about HA, well click on this button on the top of your screen [<--])

What Lorekeeper said is 99% true. HA COULD be fixed with no more than 1-2 skill balances. The first one should be a "major" one, in which more than 40 skills would need rework. The second one should "fix" whatever overpowered gimmick grew out of the first one AND to nerf the final remnants of the current retarded button-bash builds.
And offc. HoH Objectives fail. As one-dimensional as it was, Old school holding WAS in fact more fun/attracted more people (Actual PvP players, instead of PvE'ers) than current objectives...
The randomness in HoH is too high right now.

Phenompbg · Mar 16, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Maybe it seems dead because almost every group has an r6+ or r9+ requirement.

Maybe if it wasn't such a huge pain in the ass for a newer player to actually get into a HA group you wouldn't have to wait hours to get a group formed.

Lorekeeper · Mar 16, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phenompbg

Maybe it seems dead because almost every group has an r6+ or r9+ requirement.

Maybe if it wasn't such a huge pain in the ass for a newer player to actually get into a HA group you wouldn't have to wait hours to get a group formed.

this thread is starting to sound like a broken record.

Please close.

llsektorll · Mar 16, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

they just need to change the maps around a bit... especially getting rid of that annoying capture points map before golden gates....

maybe switch around the maps to the holding maps of before... even though they were hard... atleast they were exciting to play it... i hate these 1v1 rock paper scissors matchs...

wuzzman · Mar 17, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Besides the fact I'm missing the point of your thread. (If you're trying to say that nobody cares about HA, well click on this button on the top of your screen [<--])

What Lorekeeper said is 99% true. HA COULD be fixed with no more than 1-2 skill balances. The first one should be a "major" one, in which more than 40 skills would need rework. The second one should "fix" whatever overpowered gimmick grew out of the first one AND to nerf the final remnants of the current retarded button-bash builds.
And offc. HoH Objectives fail. As one-dimensional as it was, Old school holding WAS in fact more fun/attracted more people (Actual PvP players, instead of PvE'ers) than current objectives...
The randomness in HoH is too high right now.

an HA that takes 1-3 hours to form a group using 1-2 builds(wait once it's "balanced" 1 build), is never fixed. no pugs = no HA, why will no one learn that, lets talk about maybe fixing that first instead of playing the hocky pockey with map and skill balance.

.defekt · Mar 17, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

Listen, there's way more to GW than HA. Believe me, if you think HA is the l33t part of guild wars, boy are you wrong. HA is worse than point grinding in PVE imo. There's not much special about HA. Your team has an l33t setup. Your opponents have an l33t setup. Woop-dee-doo. Now let's look at PVE. OB tank rounds up 20+ foes and holds em properly. SH or SF eles launch their MS and burn away the enemy while SS deals the backup dmg. You watch the greatest fireworks display in GW. That, imo > "sry noob, no rank, no go" or "where the hell is everyone in HA? Oh that's right, they're pwning the most l33t areas in guild wars and making a hell of a lot more money than me"

i really hope you arent serious

Kyp Jade · Mar 17, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

More than HA is dead, GvG isnt as active as it used to be either. Even RA is going to trash. PvE is even in its death throes, Ursan is the only thing keeping pve alive atm.

GW is a dying game because the devs wont support it anymore.

No new content = dead pve
No attention to pvp arenas = dead pvp

Renowned Spartan · Mar 17, 2008, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Wow you just seriously self pwned yourself, a Zergway/ R Spike R10, lol nice, u r gud at GW.

It's called hopping on a warrior to take a quick screenie...stop your bitching and get a tampon already queer.

Lykan · Mar 17, 2008, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renowned Spartan

It's called hopping on a warrior to take a quick screenie...stop your bitching and get a tampon already queer.

Lol right, and you just happened to have a zergway bar loaded because you were just looking at the skills.

Queer.

Ps.

wuzzman · Mar 17, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

More than HA is dead, GvG isnt as active as it used to be either. Even RA is going to trash. PvE is even in its death throes, Ursan is the only thing keeping pve alive atm.

GW is a dying game because the devs wont support it anymore.

No new content = dead pve
No attention to pvp arenas = dead pvp

Pve has 3 continents, several dozen missions and hard mode/titles they can grind through. If they are empty places in pve, it's because no two pve'ers are doing the exact same thing at the exact same time anymore. Also there is a factor that you can take breaks from pve at any time and it won't effect you a bit. For that matter even though pugging is almost refine to Ursanway(which is really no different then tank+healer+MM+fire ele back in the old days, pve was always dominated by 1 real good build) pve has been independent of actually needing a vibrant pugging community since Prophecies with the henchman. Just like pvp, pve'ers refer to play with a limited set of people friends/guildies, and with henchman + heroes being able to do pretty much any mission, not pugging is pretty much a valid option. Pve has been avoided the trap pvp is in by a large margin.

The tragedy which is GvG is a combination of a lot of factors. First nearing the end of Factions most of the competition was beginning to disband. This was a big lol for those who break into the top 100. A combination of shifting meta that pretty much dumbed a lot of guilds that didn't feel like playing anything else into inactivity, the super long time it took to get the AT system going, the original problems with the AT system(and continuing), and the fact that the GvG scene hasn't had any new blood since prophecies, a lot of guilds now are just reformed versions of disbanded guilds and players. So inherently for gvg to be even nearly as active as it was three years ago, you have to expect that the same guilds to be just as active 3 years later....yeah doomed to fail.

Killed u man · Mar 17, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

an HA that takes 1-3 hours to form a group using 1-2 builds(wait once it's "balanced" 1 build), is never fixed. no pugs = no HA, why will no one learn that, lets talk about maybe fixing that first instead of playing the hocky pockey with map and skill balance.

Why do you do you think balanced = 1 build? Let me tell you a secret: Legoway isn't balanced, it's a spike!

Also, why does a balanced HA = no pugs? Can you please write out your definition of "balanced"?
My "balanced" HA looks like the HA Pre(Mayby even first weeks)-Factions.
MANY overpoweredbuilds that keep eachother in line. Sure, you couldn't just run "any" build (randomway), because if something is 100% balanced, it means you have exactly the same chance as winning with randomway, than you do with an organized group...

HA atm is very unbalanced. You can pick between 4-5 Gimmicks, that's it. If you run ANY other build, you won't have a disadvantage, you will simply get crushed when you face a decent gimmick team.
-Hexway
-Shitway
-Rspike
-Legoway
-A/D way

There you go, 5 builds, which sums up about 99% what is being run in HA.

Quote:

no pugs = no HA, why will no one learn that, lets talk about maybe fixing that first instead of playing the hocky pockey with map and skill balance

HOW do you suggest getting more pugs than? According to you, that is the main problem? Wait, let me gues, double fame weekends? You seem to miss the point we do NOT need more PvE-farmers. They only run gimmick button-bash bars in order to get their tiger faster. We need QUALITY players. This can be achieved through 3 things:
-> "Balanced HA": less gimmicks + no more button bash builds= PvE-farmers have to either: Quit HA (+) OR they have to up their play, and start running different builds. (+) (You notice the win/win situation?)
-> Change HoH objectives: No matter what arguement anyone throws in, HA was more fun when you didn't have to dedicate ATLEAST 4 people in your team to simply be competitive...
-> Offer more HoH-chest rewards. If you offer the reward for actually winning HoH, that will be the "goal" of most teams. The reward needs to be significantly higher than the fame rewards on the way to HoH. This way, WINNING HoH gets promote, NOT farming your way to HoH... This can only be achieved if it's "Best team = Win", and with Capture Points + Relic Run, this is difinatly NOT the case. (Old-School still depends more on build, HOWEVER inerrupting songs/Kd's, good monking DID get an actual reward, unlike the current randomness of Capture Points)

Kyp Jade · Mar 17, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

HA needs those gimmicks, and you know it. Wuzzman is 100% right, if pugs cant play the arena then they WONT play the arena. HA is meant to be much more casual than gvg.

THe problem is there arent enough pugs in the first place. And the pugs there are only play really trashy builds, simply because there is no easy alternative.