Curse

Riotgear · May 27, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

VoD-centric turtle build wins the mAT. Again. So the question now is: What, if anything, is the problem with VoD? What needs to be done to fix it?

Blame the Monks · May 27, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Knowing Izzy, probably buff assassins and hexes. Or something even more degenerate.

Kaon · May 27, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

There's always been a million things wrong with vod and a vod turtle build has been the most powerful build since... ever. That being said i'd just like to add this:

Move vod to 19:00 so ganking and splitting in vod goes easier without having to kill people twice cause of base res.

Div · May 27, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

There have already been suggestions on the other forums. Suggestions include:

a) Getting rid of most/many NPCs
b) Spreading out NPCs in base
c) Repositioning entire maps (ex. Nomads flag being near portals)
d) Scaling VoD from 10min+ or beginning of game (ex. 5% more damage every 2 minutes)
e) Another type of ViO
f) AB type shouts from flagstand
g) Giving more time for lord gank/VoD split

I'd be delighted to hear other solutions that aren't already mentioned.

DarkNecrid · May 27, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Revert the time VoD happens + halve the NPC amount + remove ViO.

imo.

jiggles · May 27, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

everything as stated + the opposing GL doesnt stop if your GL does

should stop quite a few people just rushing a GL when they have no npc's and make things a bit less predictable

Divinus Stella · May 28, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I say just reduce the number of NPC's by half and see what that changes, changing too many things at once will over complicate things.

If you reduce the number of NPC's at the stand at VoD to something reasonable then you could actually do something other than send a splinter weapon tank in and wait around in the backlines til either sides doom army of chinese archers subsides.

wally · May 28, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

well one thought I had kicking around was making NPCs positionable at VoD much like the guild thief.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 28, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

"d) Scaling VoD from 10min+ or beginning of game (ex. 5% more damage every 2 minutes)"

I rather like that idea, anyone else like it aswell?

Burton2000 · May 28, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

One idea that I remember hearing is that at VoD instead of NPC's moving to the stand, the guild lord moves to the middle first. But then the NPC's come in a bit later too if the match has still not finished, like at the time currently the guild lord comes.

DutchSmurf · May 28, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Removing as much npcs as possible would be a good start. The less npcs in a pvp match, the better in my opinion. You do need some to protect/warn against an early gank I guess, but except for that the npcs have no purpose.
Scaling VoD is a good idea too, but not sure if it helps much unless you go for higher numbers then we have now.
Maybe rework how the flagstand works. Instead of a morale boost every 2 minutes, maybe make it some kind of boost every 1.5 minutes. With better rewards if you got some in a row. Like first boost gives +5% morale, second gives +10% damage, third gives another +5% morale and another 10% damage, etc, etc. That way you can't just sit in your base and let the other team get boost after boost. Forcing people to split up more. And it gets more rewarding to make a move on the enemy runner that way.

Lorekeeper · May 28, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

How about

1) First wave of NPCs start moving out of base at 15:00min, second wave at 16min, final third wave at 17min.
2) VoD occurs at 17min. Gates open.
3) Guild lord moves out of base at 20min.

benefits of this system

i) NPCs appear at the stand at a very slow rate, meaning they are easier to deal with before the next wave arrives. They will also be easier to intercept while in transit to the stand.
ii) Guild Lord is vulnerable for 3minutes as opposed to 1:15min in the previous sytem.
iii) Since the threat of NPCs at the stand becomes reduced, teams may be more willing to go for the lord at the 17min mark.
iv) Teams that remain anchored at the stand might maintain their NPC numbers but risk not sending enough support at their lord to survive a gank.
v) since NPCs arrive much slower, teams may just opt to remain at the stand and wipe out the NPCs as they arrive and remove a big chunk of offensive power from defensive teams.

Barbie goes guru · May 28, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Maybe rework how the flagstand works. Instead of a morale boost every 2 minutes, maybe make it some kind of boost every 1.5 minutes. With better rewards if you got some in a row. Like first boost gives +5% morale, second gives +10% damage, third gives another +5% morale and another 10% damage, etc, etc. That way you can't just sit in your base and let the other team get boost after boost. Forcing people to split up more. And it gets more rewarding to make a move on the enemy runner that way.

Poor idea. As i understand it, the OP is trying to consider ways to stop rawr type builds, that is sit at the flagstand till vod, being so strong come vod. any rawr build will keep running the flag so this suggestion will do nothing, whereas dedicated splits such as sin split will get either huge morale advantages by VoD or huge NPC advantages.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 28, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Doesn't matter really on what changes are made. For example if you deplete total npcs you force another split style GvG as a whole. I my self have done ALOT of splitting in the past, still I don't think my idea of fun is running around like in AB, chasing shit down all match.
Scaling VOD dmg before VOD, as the match dwindles on. Could be worth a shot, but non the less, if rawr type builds can relatively and safely fend off a decent amount of pressure or spikes currently, it won't help the cause all that much. You'd just be giving them the upper hand with increased dmg in a relatively low dmg build as the match goes on.

Kaon · May 28, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

The solution is simple: Nerf defense.

la_cabra_de_vida · May 28, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The solution is simple: Nerf defense.

They kinda did that with the last update.

DutchSmurf · May 28, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbie goes guru

Poor idea. As i understand it, the OP is trying to consider ways to stop rawr type builds, that is sit at the flagstand till vod, being so strong come vod. any rawr build will keep running the flag so this suggestion will do nothing, whereas dedicated splits such as sin split will get either huge morale advantages by VoD or huge NPC advantages.

The general reaction of rawr type builds to a split is to give up the flagstand in favor of saving as many npcs as possible. They can easily afford to give the other team 10% morale, even more because after that the only thing that happens is their skills recharging. However, if you add a reward for keeping the flagstand that doesn't have a limit (like +% damage), you force VoD builds to pay attention to both their npcs and to the flag.

The only other thing I can think of is removing the Lords and thinking of a new win condition. Capture the flag maybe (switch the start positions of the flag, so they are in the base of the other guild or something?) or standard deathmatch 'last guild standing'?

Eonwe · May 28, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

/me casts Glyph of Sacrifice
/me casts Meteor Shower

Zabe · May 28, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

This problem has arisen since they pushed VoD on and on, adding NPC's and all the shit they could do to buff teams surviving to VoD. This leads to what we saw in monthly, team with morale advantage and NPC advantage, lost to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing black hole of defense (and don't start the rawr sucks war here, any team with same build and playstyle could and probably would have done the same). When ANet pushed VoD to 18 minutes with few updates it made the playstyle of "lets wait VoD and explode shit there" very viable, incase, so far the most viable play style of all time (5 Gold capes, hint hint!).

Then they added ViO it didn't make it any worse option to run the defenseball, incase you could just add some defense, because in the case you had the NPC's still up (which is somewhat important to turtlebuilds) they would be your killing power instead. Running BYOB that time was epic tho.

So, we have only thinked about the cons of the "lets push VoD further" attitude of ANet, what about the pros then? Well, one of the biggest pros must be the fact that you don't get boring turtlewars for 30 mins, now it lasts until 18 minutes and then shit blows up and game is over at 20 mins or a bit later. Then there is the fact that current VoD is much more observer friendly. Who wants to wait for 30 minutes to get kills, when you can do it in 18 minutes, especially when shit blows up fast, BOOM! here goes archer oh and BOOM! there is your knight falling down.

How in the hell could this be repaired then? Well, VoD should be pushed back to 20 minutes. Guild Lords should walk out at 25 minutes. YES! There would be only a whooping ~2 minutes to kill them on stand in normal AT game before the game ends by time. You also should remove some NPC's. There should be only 1 or maximum 2 Archers watching for the base gates or what ever is the way you enter the base. Then you could have knight or two and bodyguard, nothing else needed. You don't need over 9000 NPC's in lord chamber. If this kind of update makes ganking the lord way too easy, then A, damage of lord should be bigger or B, make Amulet of Protections effect greater at the start of game.

So, in the case of this update, team's have played to the 20 minute limit, big white text appears Victory or Death. Then, all the NPC's walk out in 2 waves. First wave will contain 2-4 archers depending from map and the 2nd, leaving their places in time 20:15 contains 2 knights and bodyguard. Yes, your Guild Lord would be vulnerable for attacks for over 4 minutes. What will we get with this? Well, most of all, more splitting in VoD. Preferrably even before VoD, because even lonely character (warrior, ranger or sin for example) are able to clear the whole guild hall empty if the base is unguarded.

Just my 3 cents in a small wall of text. Flame it, I don't care, feel free to it, i'd incase love it

Kaon · May 28, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I'd even say move vod back to 30minutes but that would make for impossible ATs...

Remove daily ATs and bring back the ladder? We can all afford a long MAT once per month. Perhaps give weekly ats with special conditions like prophecies only. (which was supposed to be the point of ats, an easy way of making restrictions).