Curse

supa tim · Jun 04, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

1. first of all people will always find ways to abuse the system, which is how gimmicks were born and why gimmicks will always be around.
2. second of all there are a lot of people that dont want to commit themselves to this game and specifically not to the PvP aspect of it but rather play it casually. hard core PvPers love to hate these people but without them they really have nothing...

3. so to answer your question, lets assume the hypothetical situation that what you say really does happen, the PvP community will shrink so much that even hard core PvPers will just give up...

1. Sway is the first overpowered build untouched for such a long time, and its probably the strongest build for the first few maps atm.

2. Thats a contradiction to yourself coz you said there will come new gimmicks anyway, which is true, but makes this statement fail.

3. Again in contradiction to your first statement, and this will not happen. Because what you said in 1 I agree with.

Grz,

Timmeh

supa tim · Jun 04, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh [prefession]-zorz

I thought it was IWAY. MMHMM.

untouched... Iway has suffered many nerfs (AIS nerf, evis nerf etc.)

Free Sigils · Jun 04, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimaSlash

I have to disagree. To play the role of an R/D effectively, it is important to understand how to create pressure (for example, making the enemy monks use up their energy on prots then switching targets) and to have a general idea to when a target is low enough to be spiked down with pious assault/chilling victory/eremites attack.

Whens the last time you actually sway a R/D switch targets? As a regular monk i can tell you that once an R/D locks on me from the start of a match he never swtiches unless he dies and can't find me again. I mean once in a blue moon, but very rarely.

So while your theory of R/Ds learning to play melee pressure might be right, no one really does that, thus the fail.

Killed u man · Jun 04, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

@UltimaSlash:

ANY bar can be played at different kind of effectiveness...

You can play a good IWAY warrior, or a bad one. However, the difference in skill required to run a bad IWAY warrior, or a good one is rather low compared to other bars.

Look at it like this:

If you were to give a monkey the keyboard whilst playing an sway-R/D, he (the monkey) would probably be able to play the character at 70-80% effectiveness, simply because the nature of the build is spam the skills on recharge whilst C+Space or training.

If you were to give that same monkey the keyboard whilst playing, let's say mesmer, well I won't have to lay out here what will happen... MAYBE, if he's quite lucky, he'll play at 5% effectiveness of that what a real good player would produce with the same bar...

blackknight1337 · Jun 04, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Sigils

Whens the last time you actually sway a R/D switch targets? As a regular monk i can tell you that once an R/D locks on me from the start of a match he never swtiches unless he dies and can't find me again. I mean once in a blue moon, but very rarely.

So while your theory of R/Ds learning to play melee pressure might be right, no one really does that, thus the fail.

I might also add that target switching is discouraged in nearly all low/unranked sway groups. Typically people will just say 1 on 7, 2 on 8, 3 on mesmer, rit, or whatever. People who don't "stay on their target" usually get flamed/kicked, which is just stupid.

If unranked people knew how to create pressure, which many of the higher ranked sway groups do, and were encouraged to do so from the start, then they would be much more dangerous in sway groups. As it is, they are basically taught to remain scrubs, and the double fame weekends give them emotes, with zero improvement.

Then they try to get into say a r6 group thats not button mash, they spam their wolf and get into the group, and they fail hard.

UltimaSlash · Jun 04, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

My point is that the reason people think sway is bad doesn't come from the build itself; it is not overpowered at the moment as it is very easy to counter. It comes from the way a majority of the people are running it in HA today; they think that it is not necessary to avoid prot as an R/D or use vent to be able to win in HA, which is simply not true. A button mashing R/D won't be nearly as effective as a R/D that knows how to apply pressure. A trapper who doesn't call for weapon of wardings on vent when they're wanded or know how to place traps in strategic locations probably won't deal a whole lot of pressure. With the exception of the mesmer, the majority of the other builds in HA that are being run aren't that much harder for the most part anyway. How much harder is it to run triple derv, and how hard is it to use your spike skill on one in R-spike, A/D spike, rit spike or some other caster spike? These builds aren't much harder to run, and make up a vast majority of the builds run in HA today and aren't hated nearly as much as sway.

Most sway groups do not use vent these days, and people are now discouraged to avoid prot and to just train one target on top of weapon of wardings, shield of absorptions, spirit bonds, and guardians. These groups aren't likely to get a lot of fame or make it into halls anyway. This is also not the way sway is supposed to be run. When this build was designed by the guys from IYF, is this how they ran it?

DreamWind · Jun 04, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimaSlash

My point is that the reason people think sway is bad doesn't come from the build itself; it is not overpowered at the moment as it is very easy to counter. It comes from the way a majority of the people are running it in HA today.

QFT.

I don't see how any decent player can think Sway is overpowered. It is the easiest build to beat in HA by far. The bigger problem is people bored of seeing it, which has been going on with various builds since the beginning of HA.

Tyla · Jun 04, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

But Ultima, even then, there are far superior bars when you can play decently.

Shock Axe, Wounding Strike, infact, the Wounding Strike bar I've found is actually quite spammy.

The fact certain bars carry a half decent amount of efficiency, at even a low skill level making a crap player look to be a decent player, is part of the problem.

LifesRestorer · Jun 04, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by supa tim

untouched... Iway has suffered many nerfs (AIS nerf, evis nerf etc.)

Going back to the original bunny thump sway here...

EW nerf. SR nerf. pretty sure the current build you see today is just an adaptation of what was nerfed long ago.

though leaving it untouched for so long is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible, but what can you expect a-net have pretty much given up on this game

@ Tyla, like i said in an earlier post, there are FAR more OP builds out there than the current SWAY, such as triple derv smite, but due to the general IQ of pugs no one has figured this out yet

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 05, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

The problem with sway was alrdy mentioned: low ranked balaced grps which took their time to get players, discuss the build with them, get ppl on vent, explain everyone what to do get rickrolled by sway nigtards 99% of time.
Ofc another problem is sway'ers are usually very dumb ppl who don't even understand the objectives beyond the first 3 maps thus making chaos in 1v1v1 maps.
Also sway'ers are usually rank = everything kind of ppl.
The question is if Anet removes sway and similar garbage out of the game will there be tons of r3+ balanced grps forming or empty HA?

sorry i don;t agree. i recently succumbed to actually playing Sway for the first time a few days ago and have some things i can actually say about this now.

i wanted to know what was actually wrong with the build and why it;s name is black mud in the HA community... and the resulting discussion made me want to try it out

What happened? Actually learning! At least Sway gives you a little pressure and is not so complex that if you don;t know the complexities of HA, then you can still at least learn a bit from playing against some good teams for longer than 1 min of being spiked out and stomped into the ground. I learned some good techniques playing against a R12 team. This one monk had me training him around the group and at the right time 3 of his team mates body blocked me as he ran past them... never seen that before. i had to either attack someone else and leave the monk or run around the group and get back on the monk, thus giving them time to prot up and RC some more people. Compare this against another RC monk i was on that just stood there like a noob and allowed me to attack him and the Ghostly at the same time (ie. Adjacent targets), easily pushed him into a spot next to a bush against the wall and just held him there.

It took a few games against R-spike for me to realise that people are too scared to extend into the fray against R-spike. So, yeah, i decided to risk it and me, one lone escape ranger, brave enuff to run over to the other side of the map and take down fav. winds turns a win for the other team into a 5min pressure match (and win for us). So i am learning now. If the other team, Rank 6 btw, were smart enuff they would have body blocked me...

Also, If a balanced noob team that takes 1hour to form falls over compared to a PUG Sway that takes 5 mins to form, you have to ask yourself who are the noobs in this case? In these cases, even a Randomway could pwn this lot. Do you think we could ban Randomway too?

Also, do you think i am a rank = everything type person? I am not playing HA for rank. I am playing HA cause AB is too easy, RA and TA are full of noobs and glad point farmers and i am not in a GVG based guild so i am not at that level yet. I liked playing Sway but i also think Balanced is more powerful and more fun and Randomway can sometimes have some great teams. ie. can accidently be a mix of Balanced and Sway. In essence, Sway is pretty boring to play and play against.... but to start out... i think it is the only tool < R -3's have to get to get to Rank 3++ so they can start to make the next progression up the ladder and get into perhaps slightly better teams.

I think that if ANet nerfs Sway, then you will have a new, equally annoying or equally overpowered build to come up against. At least, as it seems, that Sway is actually helping the game. How? I think it acts as kind of a filter that removes all the shite teams from the early rounds and actually increases the skill level in later rounds.

Lets face it, if a Randomway team can beat Sway (ie. like we did over and over), and Sway can beat your R6+ Ranger Spike team, then you don;t deserve to get past the first 3 maps if you can;t beat Sway or Randomway for that matter.

The Real Roy Keane · Jun 05, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

It took a few games against R-spike for me to realise that people are too scared to extend into the fray against R-spike. So, yeah, i decided to risk it and me, one lone escape ranger, brave enuff to run over to the other side of the map and take down fav. winds turns a win for the other team into a 5min pressure match (and win for us). So i am learning now. If the other team, Rank 6 btw, were smart enuff they would have body blocked me...

That was a horrible idea. Nobody carries Escape apart from R/Ds - if you were a normal melee guy you'd get spiked down and be out of Rezzing range.

erk · Jun 05, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

That was a horrible idea. Nobody carries Escape apart from R/Ds - if you were a normal melee guy you'd get spiked down and be out of Rezzing range.

Also a lot of the spike teams are using Anthem Of Guidance to make their spike unblockable, because they come across Escape R/D's all the time against Sway, and should know how to deal with it. But sometimes you get lucky.

Free Sigils · Jun 05, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimaSlash

When this build was designed by the guys from IYF, is this how they ran it?

Honestly - Observe IYF in halls sometime. They run 2 R/Ds 2 Eles 1 Mes 1 Rt 2 Monks. Does that sound like Sway to you? All they did was design the R/D and stick them in dual melee pressure. Just because people switched out the R/Ws for R/Ds dosen't make IYF sway......

And no they target swap a lot, collapse for spikes and spike seperate targets. Its a powerful build TBH.

Killed u man · Jun 05, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Sigils

Honestly - Observe IYF in halls sometime. They run 2 R/Ds 2 Eles 1 Mes 1 Rt 2 Monks. Does that sound like Sway to you? All they did was design the R/D and stick them in dual melee pressure. Just because people switched out the R/Ws for R/Ds dosen't make IYF sway......

And no they target swap a lot, collapse for spikes and spike seperate targets. Its a powerful build TBH.

Anything with splinter + scythe and fire eles is a "powerfull" build. Gues what, this is where the term "overpowered" comes in...

Take the test: Run ANY random frontline bar, (Mo/W with sword skills) 2 fire eles, snare, mes, splinter rit and you'll farm teams.

AoE is ALL you need nowadays in HA... You can win with 6 SH eles and 2 monks. (I tried it, deepfreeze on every bar) Simply because U can keep nuking them with rodgorts, especially with all these badly designed 'ball-up' maps...

Grugio · Jun 06, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Typically, when people complain about sway, it's because they lose to them. In reality, playing against sway=free fame.

Killed u man · Jun 06, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grugio

Typically, when people complain about sway, it's because they lose to them. In reality, playing against sway=free fame.

In reality, there is some people playing for fun, NOT for fame.

I could care less about the fame, I'm merely tired of the same gimmick. And as far as my knowledge goes, I've lost to sway 4 times, 3 of which were with "fun builds" (Such as 8 dark aura bombers or something), and the last one was in a 7/8 pug group...

blood seeker · Jun 06, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In reality, there is some people playing for fun, NOT for fame.

I could care less about the fame, I'm merely tired of the same gimmick.

I totally agree facing Sway 3/4 of the time really takes the fun out of HA, doesn't matter how often you win or lose it's so boring.

Tyla · Jun 06, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

@ Tyla, like i said in an earlier post, there are FAR more OP builds out there than the current SWAY, such as triple derv smite, but due to the general IQ of pugs no one has figured this out yet

I don't view Sway as overpowered.

And Dervsmite is a bit "Whoa..." to me. 3 deep wound spammers, accompanied with a cover condition, with already imbalanced damage, and the stacking of an IMS, an IAS, Conjure AND SoH...

Proff · Jun 06, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Sway is the equivalent of Ursan in Pve atm

Franco Power · Jun 06, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

* QQ,QQ*

Sway is overpowered
iway is lame
rit spike this
paraway is for noobs
rspike is harder to run then bspike
sfway is for pve scrubs
balanced is the only right build
eoe bomb is stupid
vimway players higher then r5 suck
during 6v6, "8v8 is the way to go!", during 8v8, "6v6 is better"
MATH are bad (This is actually true but still who cares)

@ People that started playing less then 1 year ago, welcome to HA, where there will always be gimmicks because it's all about farming fame, so stfu, play the game or quit , HA has been dead for over 2 years.
@ People that have been playing for more then 1 year, stfu , if you haven't figured out what HA is about then you are mentally challenged.

All the best HA players have quit or moved to GvG, in the long run, if all you do is HA, then I don't care if you're r3 or r12, you have no skill because HA does not improve, after you get to r6, 90% of the time, you'll have the same skill when you hit r9 and so on, farming fame using gimmicks or being carried by better players then you does not make you a good player.
PS: I quit HA almost 2 years ago, so I really don't give a damn what you think about me.
PPS: There are a few people I respect in this thread, so this is not directed to all of you, just the whiners.

Edit: I forgot the most important one Dryder is the best player in guild wars