Curse

Tyla · May 31, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by supa tim

with that powerfull counter u get trashed by any other build.

I have to agree here.
But any good balanced will wipe the floor with Sway.

Then again, that leaves the people who are learning to play and not to buttonmash. People who play for fun and not for some flashy emote.

They probably won't be able to beat Sway, making them either: Resort to it, or quit HA. Both are bad for HA.

It's been mentioned in another thread anyway.

supa tim · May 31, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I have to agree here.
Then again, that leaves the people who are learning to play and not to buttonmash. People who play for fun and not for some flashy emote.

They probably won't be able to beat Sway, making them either: Resort to it, or quit HA. Both are bad for HA.

And thats the whole problem in HA

FrAnt1c² · May 31, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Blurred vision + blind was mingson + diversion goes on expell = bb sway

Ec]-[oMaN · May 31, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

My take on button mash, gimmick builds, or plopping skills/spirits/traps, whatever you want to call it; is that HA should be a stepping ground!

From a high lvl PvP stand point I feel, leaving builds with the characteristics mentioned is what lead GW(PvP) into a downward spiral. Players are learning very little or almost next to nothing running these builds, which in turn has lead little progression of player skill overall concerning the player base. TBH not addressing these builds is good for the casual who doesn't give a rats ass, that just wants an emote for his HOM. Addressing said builds promotes growth to the overall skill level of the PvP community if taken out, you decide what's better for Anet, and obviously what's better for the playerbase.

Tyla · May 31, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

Blurred vision + blind was mingson + diversion goes on expell = bb sway

Congratulations, you provided basic anti-melee and anti-caster counters!

People know how to beat this build, but guess what?
Infact...I'll just wait for you to read my post.

Frank Dudenstein · May 31, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

In Guildwars there is some expectation that Skill > Build. In fact that is what competitive people want.

People hate Sway becasue it turns that paradigm upside down. Remarkably little skill is able to net superior results. That is not to say it is unstoppable or even hard to beat by experienced players. It IS to say that the skill vs reward ratio is WAY off hence it is hated.

LifesRestorer · May 31, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I like this. In fact, you could say SWAY is such a good team build that it lets the unskilled defeat the skilled. The question we really should ask is why hasn't anyone figured out a powerful counter to it?

just get your midline to wand trappers, get monks to cover each others channelling with aura of stab/spotless mind and don't suck!

it's probably the easiest RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build to roll, it's not powerful, it's just pugs are too stupid to run anything stronger, such as triple derv smite

Red Sand · Jun 01, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

People hate Sway becasue it turns that paradigm upside down. Remarkably little skill is able to net superior results. That is not to say it is unstoppable or even hard to beat by experienced players. It IS to say that the skill vs reward ratio is WAY off hence it is hated.

Pretty much. I am betting that SWAY is hated so much because an uncoordinated PUG can use it to win. From all the complaints, I assume that most people don't play with a well coordinated Guild/Alliance team on a regular basis. I've only done HA with my guildies, (and were still working on a regular team, doing PUG from the Guild so to speak) but I'm pretty sure a good Balanced Guild team will beat a PUG SWAY; it's trying to run PUG Balanced that gets all ugly.

LordEzekiel · Jun 01, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

ok @OP if someone beats you then its only polite to say GG.
@the rest-I dont care about PvP eliteness, if someone beats your team, that team was better, simple. The build they used beat your build. Oh well, its only a game, deal with it-dont moan about it.
BTW I dont farm hero points, or care in any way about the title-so I am completely objective.

Thizzle · Jun 01, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Here's my Sway story... pay attention. I've made it to the halls with it sure, but we beat basically idiots and hall skipped to [GANK] and it's not that they were very good, it's that they made a more versatile build and most likely knew Sway was coming. If you can find something that can counter Sway and spikes that's basically half the battle. It's kind of cool to battle against those high end PvP guilds. It's simple really... use empathy, remove stance, and conditions to destroy melee then go for Necro and you basically win.

TaCktiX · Jun 01, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Killing Sway in three easy steps:
-Wand Trappers
-Draw the RC's conditions
-Throw down pressure/spike

Something that guild groups, R7+ balanced PUGs, friends list groups, or alliance groups can do with ease. Something that poor sods with R3 or 4 (if even) can't do either due to inexperience or general dysfunction. As has been stated, it's not overpowered strictly speaking, it just screws over the possibility of legitimate HA'ers getting over the "hump" between rolling Sway 99% of the time, and getting rolled by Sway 99% of the time.

I say this as a person who has to fight as hard as possible to get into the groups I join. I'm Rank 5, and I can say that I'm the best infuser who's Rank 5 (not a brag, just consider the last r5+ group's infuser you met). I've spent this entire weekend with at minimum r7+ groups, and rolled Sway all but a couple of times (and lemme tell you, there are a LOT of Sways out there). If I hadn't been given "a chance" by higher ranked friends, I wouldn't be able to join the groups I am, and I wouldn't have the skill to stay in those groups. As it stands, there is NO way for random joe to get over "the hump" grinding out the fame with others, there must be help from "above".

Teh Jace · Jun 01, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

just got ganked by sway in hoh GG

UltimaSlash · Jun 04, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Contrary to popular belief, both individual and teamwork skills are important in sway, just as they are in any other build.

Someone said earlier:

"People hate sway because it allows terrible players to do much better than they ever should. It has the basic elements of a balanced team, but dumbed down to a level where anybody at all can play it competantly"

I have to disagree. To play the role of an R/D effectively, it is important to understand how to create pressure (for example, making the enemy monks use up their energy on prots then switching targets) and to have a general idea to when a target is low enough to be spiked down with pious assault/chilling victory/eremites attack. Low ranked players simply are not very good with this. Calling for warmongers, splinters, and weapon of wardings is just as important in sway than in any other build. Playing the role of an n/rt involves proper usage of weapon of warding, fast reflexes to catch a spike, and good energy management.

It is sad that a large portion of the community hates sway simply because they think it requires little skill or teamwork, and that voice communication is not needed. This is simply not true. A low ranked pug sway group without ts or vent isn't likely to go any farther than the underworld. See how you do in relic runs or in the courtyard without any experience at running relics or any type of voice communication.

Sway is not overpowered at the moment, as it is easily countered by wanding trappers, degeneration, and hexes. If you say it is overrun, how many teams in HA are not running a gimmick right now? How often do you see anything other than rspike, A/D spike, triple melee, rit spike, bloodspike, or legoway? If sway doesn't get a GG, then about 95% of the teams in HA right now shouldn't either because they are running gimmicks as well.

In my honest opinion, it is unfair that a sway group that works hard to win, takes the time to get on vent, works with the team, and practice their individual skills does not get a GG from the other team simply because of their build.

Sway is also a good way for new players to transition into HA, as it is not very difficult to run, and will also allow the new player to get experience in maps such as the antechamber, courtyard, and forgotten shrines, and practice their individual skills as frontline, support, and backline. These skills will be essential for the player when they get to a higher level. From my experience, running a balanced build with unranks simply is not practical, because these players are simply overwhelmed with too much to learn in the beginning. Sway also allows a new player to gain confidence in HA, because a player who loses 5 or more times consecutively attempting to run a balanced without much HA experience is likely to become frustrated and would not want to HA again. When a player realizes that sway is keeping them from holding halls is when the player should stop running it, but before then, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. Sway is a common build, but without a build that will allow unranks to win a game here and there, you can expect HA to die a lot faster.

Age · Jun 04, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Because all they want is fame, so they resort to the most brainless build possible.

Why should you say "Good Game" to something so brainless and people who play for only fame for bragging rights of bambis, wolves or tigers?

Whether or not they're easy to beat, brainless builds aren't worth a gg for me.

I wouldn't mind some fame at any cost really alteast I can say I did something in this game.

Tyla · Jun 04, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimaSlash

I have to disagree. To play the role of an R/D effectively, it is important to understand how to create pressure (for example, making the enemy monks use up their energy on prots then switching targets) and to have a general idea to when a target is low enough to be spiked down with pious assault/chilling victory/eremites attack.

Then in that case, choosing an R/D over a D/E Wounding Striker, an AoM Derv or a Shock Axe is beyond me.

Plus, I thought targetswitching and knowing how to apply pressure is something ANY melee should know how to do. Aswell as spiking.

Quote:

Low ranked players simply are not very good with this. Calling for warmongers, splinters, and weapon of wardings is just as important in sway than in any other build.

How so? A Splinter bitch really doesn't take too much skill. Pop it on your most devastating melee type, for Warmongers, put it on another guy. Weapon of Warding is a prot skill for Resto.

Quote:

Playing the role of an n/rt involves proper usage of weapon of warding, fast reflexes to catch a spike, and good energy management.

Just as the role of a Monk needs to be able to catch spikes, manage energy and prot too.

But seriously, if you're really that good you might as well just run something else, with decent guys. I really don't understand how a Shock Axe is easier in HA (Yeah, Killed u Man!), and run real Monks.

Edwards · Jun 04, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

I have to disagree. To play the role of an R/D effectively, it is important to understand how to create pressure (for example, making the enemy monks use up their energy on prots then switching targets) and to have a general idea to when a target is low enough to be spiked down with pious assault/chilling victory/eremites attack. Low ranked players simply are not very good with this. Calling for warmongers, splinters, and weapon of wardings is just as important in sway than in any other build. Playing the role of an n/rt involves proper usage of weapon of warding, fast reflexes to catch a spike, and good energy management.

Except that the R/Ds have stupidly high elemental armour and block stances that make them extremely hard to kill. Not to mention that they can spam skills at will with Expertise. N/Rt takes some skill, but WoW is their only preprot (which can't be removed), and they get SR energy and Well of Power, which means that energy is not a concern. I also noticed you made no effort to compare Smoke Trappers to Mesmers in your post, though they are both good midliners capable of both offensive shutdown and defense. Simply because playing a Smoke Trap is just pressing skills on recharge, while playing a Mesmer requires a lot more.

I'd go further into this, but I have school tomorrow, and it's getting late.

Skye Marin · Jun 04, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

What I've gleaned is that Sway is a decent build that's easy to run. It's played by folks who want to pick up fast games, not need vent or TS, and want to earn some fame.

What's the appeal of using a harder-to-run build?

I know a lot of people play it, especially folks who don't play a lot of HA. Of course they want to win, and will try it continuously when they see it in action. They'll want to practice what they know, and what they know works.

I'm sure if you ran with a handful of players, you could become a better team. I'm sure harder to run builds have more tactical variety and viability in more situations.

Each member of Sway could be replaced with characters with equivalent roles. I can't look at Sway and identify exactly what elements should be nerfed, if it were to be nerfed at all. Does warmongers need to be removed from the game, or limited to 5 weapon attacks? Escape's not at fault, and N/Rts have been nerfed plenty of times.

So it takes more effort to beat with builds that are harder to beat it with?

Am I the only one that sees what's wrong with that question?

Is it the dullness then?

Teh Jace · Jun 04, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

The problem with sway was alrdy mentioned: low ranked balaced grps which took their time to get players, discuss the build with them, get ppl on vent, explain everyone what to do get rickrolled by sway nigtards 99% of time.
Ofc another problem is sway'ers are usually very dumb ppl who don't even understand the objectives beyond the first 3 maps thus making chaos in 1v1v1 maps.
Also sway'ers are usually rank = everything kind of ppl.
The question is if Anet removes sway and similar garbage out of the game will there be tons of r3+ balanced grps forming or empty HA?

zling · Jun 04, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

The problem with sway was alrdy mentioned: low ranked balaced grps which took their time to get players, discuss the build with them, get ppl on vent, explain everyone what to do get rickrolled by sway nigtards 99% of time.
Ofc another problem is sway'ers are usually very dumb ppl who don't even understand the objectives beyond the first 3 maps thus making chaos in 1v1v1 maps.
Also sway'ers are usually rank = everything kind of ppl.
The question is if Anet removes sway and similar garbage out of the game will there be tons of r3+ balanced grps forming or empty HA?

first of all people will always find ways to abuse the system, which is how gimmicks were born and why gimmicks will always be around.
second of all there are a lot of people that dont want to commit themselves to this game and specifically not to the PvP aspect of it but rather play it casually. hard core PvPers love to hate these people but without them they really have nothing...

so to answer your question, lets assume the hypothetical situation that what you say really does happen, the PvP community will shrink so much that even hard core PvPers will just give up...

Turtle222 · Jun 04, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

2 dervs wounding dervs, 2 smite mesmers, 1 magebane ranger, 2 hybrid/heal monks, 1 rt/A flagrunner. Best build ever