Curse

Squawkers · May 19, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

With the current game meta, the Rt/A build is rampant in nearly every single guild with the except of the next most common, but still uncommon, HB monk flagger. So when my guild decided to set up our build, we went for balanced and I went for the Rt/A.

So here's the thing: This build doesn't work too well for us. We aren't that high of an experienced group and we improve daily in my opinion. But there are little things that make me feel as if this build is not helping.

Our frontliners are what I should call passive attackers as in they are probably attacking targets less than 40% of the time. I don't know why, but they aren't continuously switching targets and pressuring. That makes ancestors rage useless most of the time unless for a spike. Now days most teams expect the Rt/A and constantly remind people not to ball up, so splinter weapon already isn't that effective. Combine that with our frontliners, and it's nearly pointless. (Our GH is currently druid's so it's only really practical on the vine).

So since this build, at least in my opinion, doesn't help too much, I am looking for other options. Feel free to respond to my reasoning to wanting to drop it because maybe I'm missing something...

My main question is, why are flag runners typically support as well? From as far back as I can remember the flagger has had running skills and defensive skills to help the whole party. Would not having that person for extra support cause that much of a problem for guilds? Is it impractical to have something such as a dervish with skills to stand on his own and having another skill to heal a teamate and the rest of the bar being an attack bar? Just as an example for a build -> wounding strike, mystic sweep, chilling victory, faithful intervention, inbue health, conjure lighting, watchful intervention, mystic speed. (and yes energy could be a problem)

Thoughts?

kvndoom · May 19, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

The Rit has map-wide party healing, an elite that offers condition removal and damage, AOE damage skills, blah blah. The main thing is that the Rit's primary attribute blows, so they can spec fully into their healing line and their damage line with no compromises. And their IMS doesn't need attribute points.

The derv you listed doesn't have condition removal, and would get eaten alive by a Cripshot. A Monk runner could work, and offer superior party healing, but you lose the ability to make shit blow up when it's 8v8 time.

Your frontline will have to work on pressuring and forcing positioning so that Ancestor's and Splinter will be effective. They will have to simply practice until they get better at it.

Squawkers · May 19, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

The Rit has map-wide party healing, an elite that offers condition removal and damage, AOE damage skills, blah blah. The main thing is that the Rit's primary attribute blows, so they can spec fully into their healing line and their damage line with no compromises. And their IMS doesn't need attribute points.

The derv you listed doesn't have condition removal, and would get eaten alive by a Cripshot. A Monk runner could work, and offer superior party healing, but you lose the ability to make shit blow up when it's 8v8 time.

Your frontline will have to work on pressuring and forcing positioning so that Ancestor's and Splinter will be effective. They will have to simply practice until they get better at it.

I understand the party wide heals and such and the reason for the build in general. But why can't there be a flagger that can flag and then frontline instead of flagging and being full support, with damage and in heals? It's just more offense than defense. If you're up a flag and their runner is gone, you can play 8v7 at the stand and have an extra person spreading damage instead of healing.

As for the condition removal, the Rt/A has the exact same problem. Any smart crip shot knows the fact that WoR will remove the crippling effect upon the hit. So they prep up with the apply posion before hand and then use crip shot. Even if you had WoR pre-applied, the posion covers the cripple. So at the least, you're still crippled. Then they just dont attack you until they have their apply posion still up and cript shot recharged. With either build, you would need help from someone else, but WoR can help with deep wounds, etc..

And yes I know the frontliners could do better but until then, that build is of no help. They can slowly get better at frontlining but running a completely different build seperate from them would be more effective.

Mr Emu · May 20, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

because defensive/support skills also help a flagger survive solo, such as WoW and WoR

Squawkers · May 20, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

because defensive/support skills also help a flagger survive solo, such as WoW and WoR

Point taken. I've thought some things over and decided that this may work better ->

grenth's grasp, mystic sweep, dwayna's touch, faithful intervention, inbue health, conjure frost, mystic speed, and chilling victory.

With dwanya's, you can heal for a little over 100 on this build. The only problem would be your conjure running out and having to recast while a crip shot is around. Otherwise, grenth's is a relatively quick recast (3/4) and dwayna's is only 1/4 and easily spammable. So you could technically survive solo.

You have inbue health for what could be a 300 heal but I'll say around 200 most of the time. The rest is just keeping grenth, conjure up and linebacking. Grenth's can keep their melee down and can be considered defensive.

You can catch spikes, lineback, help spike the enemy, stay alive alone, and energy management is fine.

Tell me where I'm wrong. I just am trying to figure out why you can't break the mold and run a different flagger.

dies like fish · May 20, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Flaggers are meant to do two things: base defend and run a flag. While doing these things, you will be able to output very little damage.

Greedy Gus · May 20, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Go for derv bomber (teleporting mystic sandstorm) flagger. Way cooler.

Squawkers · May 20, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Flaggers are meant to do two things: base defend and run a flag. While doing these things, you will be able to output very little damage.

But from what I can see, that build can do both of those. At the level we play, a lot of teams don't even decide to gank at all. That means just running flags the whole time. With that running set, you'd run at 33% faster constantly with only about a 1/2 second delay inbetween.

I mean youobviously aren't going to kill anything that goes after the base with this. But you could cripple them, keep yourself alive, and one other quite easily.

The only real difference is your team doesn't have all of those supportive heals plus you have an extra 10 armor. They would just have imbue health. Instead of the heals at the stand, you would be linebacking by crippling everything you can. Then on spikes you will help a lot more (mystic sweep + chilling victory and the cripple will stop the kite).

It's got the 2 things down, defending and flagging. But instead of support, you have more damage. What's wrong with that? Is there something wrong with the build?

And thanks for your replies.

Greedy Gus · May 20, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

The reason that melee characters were never popular as actual flaggers (not looking at lending a hand shuttling flags) and why cripshot flaggers faded in popularity was simply that your effectiveness is so low while holding a flag (a duration which ultimately can be determined by the other team should they notice and exploit your weakness) due to weapon reliance.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 20, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

How will you defend against a gank of a burning arrow ranger, or a 2 man gank team?

JR · May 20, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squawkers

Our frontliners are what I should call passive attackers as in they are probably attacking targets less than 40% of the time.

That's probably your problem.

warriorsmiley · May 25, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I have to go with JR on this one. If your warrior's are passive the gvg might as well be 6v8 because they are useless. Your warriors are your best source of DPS. If they aren't attacking your not getting the dps your build requires. Try switching the people that play warrior to another spot and give other people a shot at the warrior position preferably people that are aggressive and know how to call and pick targets.

If the whole warrior thing doesn't work out try switching to a heavy pressure degen build with both hexes and conditions. Now the problem with this your team normally doesnt have the punch you need to win at vod so you have to play the build very aggressive to dp the team out and make them resign.

You Look Grim · May 31, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

splinter weapon rapes at vod!

RotteN · Jun 01, 2008, 12:04 AM // 00:04

The main reason why flaggers are usually casters and not frontliners is indeed, as Gus pointed out, because you can't wield a weapon why holding a flag.

Get a new frontline (or force the current one to improve, fast), problem solved.

Farin · Jun 01, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That's probably your problem.

123123123123

Musei Karasu · Jun 01, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squawkers

we improve daily

If this is true, why hasn't this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squawkers

Our frontliners are what I should call passive attackers as in they are probably attacking targets less than 40% of the time.

been fixed?

zling · Jun 04, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

most flaggers use Rit/A nowadays because they cant find room for party wide healing elsewhere. if you can fit it somewhere else you could go with a different flagger, heck even an offensive flagger.
some other flagger options you should look into:
Monk, as been mentioned. various Monk flagger builds available.
Ele/Mo, either Water Ele defensive support or MB Ele offensive support. either case they wont be the ones to defend the base but rather switch positions with someone else when someone is required to defend base.
Sin, not such a great options cause you will need to drop flag whenever engaging in combat, however still viable.
Mesmer, Crippling Anguish Illusion mesmer can run pretty well and solo kill the other flagger, especially the popular Rit/A as they really have no answer for massive degen...

Kaon · Jun 04, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Get a frontline that actually is above the level of mental retardation. You don't need much experience, just a little bit of intelligence.

MetalMan · Jun 05, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Rits are flag runners for 3 reasons -

[Weapon of Warding][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage]

Ok, i play flag runner and, i admit, my guild is only top 700, but i've obsed a lot and used what i've learnt vs much higher guilds, and basically, those 3 skills > all that a monk can offer.

E/Mo is good but has more offence than defence.
Mo/E is good but has no offence.
Rt/A has unstrippable defence, heals, a party heal and godly offence.

Thats why they are used.

skakid9090 · Jun 05, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

E/Mo is good but has more offence than defence.

Play it correctly.