Curse

GourangaPizza · Jun 05, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Because Shroud of Silence was like having WOD on a sins bar, it also contributed to the rest of the sin bar meeting the hex condition. I don't think there should be such skills ingame that totally shutdown a whole char because of one skill, surely anyone with a brain would have concluded if Shroud with a much longer recharge got nerfed why was wod buffed, then again WOD has a harder access, more points needed and tied to a crappy necro primary, still doesn't change the fact that said skills shouldn't belong in PvP.

But WoD was versatile in usage to be able to 'shutdown' anything. Any professions are pretty much useless with all their attributes set to 0 unless they're running mainly on no attribute skills which I don't see it quite often in Obs mode.

EDIT
And its quite spammable.

Problem. · Jun 05, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Because Shroud of Silence was like having WOD on a sins bar, it also contributed to the rest of the sin bar meeting the hex condition. I don't think there should be such skills ingame that totally shutdown a whole char because of one skill, surely anyone with a brain would have concluded if Shroud with a much longer recharge got nerfed why was wod buffed, then again WOD has a harder access, more points needed and tied to a crappy necro primary, still doesn't change the fact that said skills shouldn't belong in PvP.

I dunno about that. Wail of Doom is comparable to what the Domination Magic line is all about, opening windows of opportunities to cause pressure, do damage, and score kills. Wail of Doom has a short duration, and has to be used in a pretty masterful way to achieve any effect, unless you Arcane Echo it. Maybe it should be changed to a skill to prevent Arcane Echo abuse, and maybe a slight recharge nerf will balance it out a little. 12 Second Recharge sounds nice, ala Diversion. Shroud of Silence, however, was a skill that required no mastery of the game at all, and allowed a sin to get off an insta-gib combo, while one was defenseless. Also, Wail of Doom is removable by the person it is on, Shroud of Silence was only removal if you had pre-veiled or someone else took it off of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Perhaps some enchant stripping buffs to try and deal with the SoH, Judges, Conjure problem. eg. reduce recharge on Rend Enchantments and Envenom Enchantments to 10sec. Halve the recharge time on Drain Enchantment to 10sec with a corresponding reduction in health/energy gain so it's a more dynamic skill.

Such absurd skill changes would only promote Spike Builds. Maybe Envenom Enchantments deserves a little love because it doesn't remove all enchantments, as is comparable in function to Rip Enchantment, but Rend Enchantments at 10 second recharge is asking for trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

No one cares, come back when you play at a respectable level and actually know what you're talking about.

Lol, I wanted to comment on what he said, but I didn't cause I kinda figured what he was about when he said Warmongers. Lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Ward should stay as it is, I wouldn't mind BSurge getting a little buff (not as good as it was before) but I don't miss it tbh.

I agree that B-Surge needs to be buffed. I think with its current duration, it should be reverted back to 5 Energy. 10 Energy makes the skill way to inefficient.

Riotgear · Jun 05, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

All good except in bold.... Thank god you don't work for Anet, your sin-hate is so painfully obvious.

Positioning and movement is a very large part of strategy in Guild Wars, the interplay between melee that telegraphs their intentions and backlines that need to react to that pre-emptively has been what separates it from other games which mostly devolve to button-mashing and twitch-saving spikes.

Shadow steps jettison that element of strategy. Teleport spikes are retarded. In the worst cases, i.e. early Shadow Prison axe and the new A/D stupidity, it basically lets you get the raw power of melee with the delivery of a caster, and is quite broken.

Ensuring that something is interesting or balanced takes priority over it being viable.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jun 05, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

"Did some clean up Izzy @-'---- 01:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)"

Its spring cleaning time.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 05, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

I dunno about that. Wail of Doom is comparable to what the Domination Magic line is all about, opening windows of opportunities to cause pressure, do damage, and score kills. Wail of Doom has a short duration, and has to be used in a pretty masterful way to achieve any effect.

That would be the case, but the window of opportunity is much too small to actually accomplish something, it being a hex and doesnt prevent casts means it could be countered quite easily still.

The strength of WoD is the fact that it's ridiculously spammable, essentially free and not interruptable. I'd much prefer a longer lasting WoD with a longer cast time, recharge and higher energy cost (something like 1..6 duration, 15r, 1c, 10e).

Quote:

I agree that B-Surge needs to be buffed. I think with its current duration, it should be reverted back to 5 Energy. 10 Energy makes the skill way to inefficient.

A slightly longer blind at 10e or ~5-7r at 5e.

Mr Fizzle · Jun 05, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

As I want every single game balance,REMOVE DERVISHS FROM PVP.

They've eefing caused nothing but problems.

Signet of Humility isn't too hard to dshot/interupt but I can see how half range would at least force some more skillful play into the skill.

Riotgear · Jun 05, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

That would be the case, but the window of opportunity is much too small to actually accomplish something, it being a hex and doesnt prevent casts means it could be countered quite easily still.

What's nice about it is that it doesn't just function as a "window of opportunity" skill, it's able to be thrown at skills mid-cast to cause disruption in similar ways to interrupts. This is kind of why I like it, it's a skill with a lot of potential uses when it's NOT being spammed back-to-back-to-back.

erk · Jun 06, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Such absurd skill changes would only promote Spike Builds. Maybe Envenom Enchantments deserves a little love because it doesn't remove all enchantments, as is comparable in function to Rip Enchantment, but Rend Enchantments at 10 second recharge is asking for trouble.

Rend causes health loss to the caster, so there is a limit to it's use even with a faster recharge. What's wrong with spike builds? Though they are more for HA. They tend to use Gaze of Contempt, it's usually a full health target they are spiking, so their primary need is already catered for. I am thinking more of the GvG balanced teams that are having trouble with enchantment stacks that call frequent little spikes more than once every 20sec. to apply pressure.

Krill · Jun 06, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

I dunno about that. Wail of Doom is comparable to what the Domination Magic line is all about, opening windows of opportunities to cause pressure, do damage, and score kills. Wail of Doom has a short duration, and has to be used in a pretty masterful way to achieve any effect, unless you Arcane Echo it. Maybe it should be changed to a skill to prevent Arcane Echo abuse, and maybe a slight recharge nerf will balance it out a little. 12 Second Recharge sounds nice, ala Diversion. Shroud of Silence, however, was a skill that required no mastery of the game at all, and allowed a sin to get off an insta-gib combo, while one was defenseless. Also, Wail of Doom is removable by the person it is on, Shroud of Silence was only removal if you had pre-veiled or someone else took it off of you.

I've yet to see WoD used in a "masterful" way. Again, 90% of the time it's just used to carpet a monk in a 40/40 set. I wouldn't compare it to the dom line either because a monk has a few options in diversion and shame, such as sacrificing another skill if they absolutely need to cast something else. With WoD you are helpless with no attributes and by the time you remove it, it would have expired in two seconds anyway...and there's a 40% chance it will be incoming again in a few seconds.

Theoretically WoD could indeed be a great utility skill for shutting down any player at opportune moments but the reality is that it's being spammed. I almost guarantee that if the recharge on WoD was bumped to 20, maybe even 15 seconds it, like b-surge, would fall out of favor because the skill could no longer be used to simply carpet players.

I Angra I · Jun 06, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Make Mantra of Inscriptions only work on mesmer signets.

Make Wounding Strike go away.

And I like the idea of not letting SoH and Conjure stack somehow.

Problem. · Jun 06, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Rend causes health loss to the caster, so there is a limit to it's use even with a faster recharge. What's wrong with spike builds? Though they are more for HA. They tend to use Gaze of Contempt, it's usually a full health target they are spiking, so their primary need is already catered for. I am thinking more of the GvG balanced teams that are having trouble with enchantment stacks that call frequent little spikes more than once every 20sec. to apply pressure.

Opinions like yours are the reason skill balances aren't public. Rend Enchantments outclasses every other enchant removal in the game, because you can use it when a target is protted up below 50%, and finish it. In addition, the health loss only occurs for Monk enchantments. Generally, you wont be removing more than 2 maybe 3 monk enchantments tops. The health loss is really negligible. If you want enchant removal that powerful, you go for an elite like Shatterstorm. Otherwise, such enchant removal would be way too overpowered. If you can't see how overpowered a Rend Enchantments would be at 10 recharge, you really need to never speak until you've played Guild Wars at a competent level, and have somewhat of a competent understanding of the game.

Riotgear · Jun 06, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Make Mantra of Inscriptions only work on mesmer signets.

I don't think eliminating the advantages of subclassing is a good way to solve things. Mantra of Inscriptions isn't just a problem because of smiting, even Mesmer signets have absurd recharges because they're all balanced around it being active.

Riotgear · Jun 06, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

And yet they dont. I wonder why?

Because ArenaNet is slow to admit something was a bad idea. I'm pretty sure if their ideas were automatically good, skill balance discussions would not exist.

Quote:

Hmm, maybe because it's not as big of a deal you proclaim it to be.

A/D telespike is a pretty big problem right now. Shadow steps have been becoming an issue repeatedly ever since the initial buffs, between Shadow Prison abuse, lolsins, Melandru telespike, two MATs worth of sinsplit, and now the A/D telespike shit.

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

guys i got it

maybe their plan is to not do an update this month at all

you know

shake things up

Nature Loves Me · Jun 06, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

Keeping your team condition free all the time is just stupid (i.e. bleeding), and how is not removing conditions on your team fair to your opponent? You might as well /resign, cuz you're not putting up a fair fight.

I know, just sounded like it to me. I see your point also. Dervs are a problem. Can hit 100+ damage with AoE :X That's what made me fall in love with 'em a long time ago ^^.

Quick question though...

If WS' recharge was increased and/or DW became on top, would the use of RC be any less than it is now?

And with SoH...if that was "fixed" in someway, would that now mean RC's can keep the team clean of all lethal conditions whenever they come?

They are just honest questions, because it could lead to the point where conditions become a minority like hexes. <---Quick though ^^ I gotta go to schoool *runs off*

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 06, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

They're planning on doing an update, I'm guessing it'll be released next thursday.

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 06, 2008, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I've yet to see WoD used in a "masterful" way. Again, 90% of the time it's just used to carpet a monk in a 40/40 set. I wouldn't compare it to the dom line either because a monk has a few options in diversion and shame, such as sacrificing another skill if they absolutely need to cast something else. With WoD you are helpless with no attributes and by the time you remove it, it would have expired in two seconds anyway...and there's a 40% chance it will be incoming again in a few seconds.

Theoretically WoD could indeed be a great utility skill for shutting down any player at opportune moments but the reality is that it's being spammed. I almost guarantee that if the recharge on WoD was bumped to 20, maybe even 15 seconds it, like b-surge, would fall out of favor because the skill could no longer be used to simply carpet players.

What if WoD duration maxed out to 2 seconds ... but you could get that 2 sec at 8SR. Then it would be more of a skillful interrupt and less of a blanket (tho a 40HCR would still be really good).

If Foul Feast was also made playable at 8SR ... you could probably make a reasonable bar starting from that. Would it be good enough?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 06, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

If Foul Feast was also made playable at 8SR ... you could probably make a reasonable bar starting from that. Would it be good enough?

Foul Feast is plenty playable at 8SR, there's just no reason not to spec 13 SR in it atm.

Lorekeeper · Jun 06, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nature Loves Me

They are just honest questions, because it could lead to the point where conditions become a minority like hexes. <---Quick though ^^ I gotta go to schoool *runs off*

Conditions were in a fine state before the wounding strike buff. Some teams could run sword warriors with apply poison rangers for pressure, with cracked armour for spikes and blind/weakness for defense. But that was back in the march/april meta before this silly buffs was made to make up for the nerf to the grenths aura dervish template. If you support super strong condi buffs like that then you should extend that logic to hexes, you cant pick and choose what is super powerful and therefore playable and what isnt, thats not what balance is about. But lets humour the notion that conditions need buffing into meta, dont you think there are better ways of doing it than giving dervishes an aoe deep wound covered with bleeding... surely? If you think this buffed wounding strike is the only way of giving conditions a crack at the meta... well Im sorry but that can only be interpreted as favouritism towards that class and the narrow minded perception you have that its fine that ''dervishes are meant to be really powerful'' at the expense of balance in the game. From a class concept point of view, the dervish seems completely lost. It went from super godlike avatars with aoe, to perfect frontline trains, to teleporting aoe eviscerating trees, to teleporting enchant strip on demand spikers to condition spamming? Come on... can anet finally decide what role (IF ANY) the dervish class is meant to have without making it overpowered as a result? What design concept do dervishes have now and what place amongst the other classes do they have in GW? It seems anet is struggling to justify their existence without making them overpowered, in which case we can all ask ''why do they exist at all?'' Id like to see an acceptable answer to that question that explained how they could fit into the GW balance system. Im sure we could come up with our own ideas that didnt involve them being imbalanced, but like some people have said already ''it doesnt really make a difference''. Its almost like anet's design concept for the dervish is to make it the class that can do everything a warrior wished it could do. Nice balance.

But anyway that is besides the point, conditions wont suddenly disappear from GW if wounding strike has a 6-8s recharge and has deep wound appear on top of bleeding. If you want condition spreading dervishes why dont you run a dervish with earth prayers where all the condition applying dervish skills are? Oh I know, because noone uses earth prayers unless theyre using mystic regeneration... 1 skill from an entire attribute line of useless skills.

The class needs an overhaul, even more than ritualists and assassins.

erk · Jun 06, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Opinions like yours are the reason skill balances aren't public. Rend Enchantments outclasses every other enchant removal in the game, because you can use it when a target is protted up below 50%, and finish it. In addition, the health loss only occurs for Monk enchantments. Generally, you wont be removing more than 2 maybe 3 monk enchantments tops. The health loss is really negligible. If you want enchant removal that powerful, you go for an elite like Shatterstorm. Otherwise, such enchant removal would be way too overpowered. If you can't see how overpowered a Rend Enchantments would be at 10 recharge, you really need to never speak until you've played Guild Wars at a competent level, and have somewhat of a competent understanding of the game.

Your tone sux mate, go back and get an understanding of forum etiquette, look up the psychology of trying to discredit other posters opinions, it's an interesting read.

If stripping off multiple Monk enchants from a protted up target below 50% health was as critical as you implied, then a non-elite skills such as Test of Faith, would be in popular use, but other things on the bar are considered more important, and simple enchant removals suffice for frequent spikes.

Where I see an improved Rend being useful is the potential for stripping stacked Dervish enchants as a means of reducing pressure, not Monk prots in a spike. You don't even need to have 5-8 enchants removed, 3 would be sufficient as a trade off. With many teams running multiple Wounding Strike Dervishes, Gaze of Contempt is too expensive and slow to keep casting on several targets, you need something cheap with a shorter recharge, the trade off that Rend is not good on multiple Monk enchants is fair enough, use something else, or you try and keep away from Monk enchants as best you can. I see no reason why the damage from removing Monk enchants can't be increased as a trade of from reducing the recharge time. That would discourage it's use in stripping spike prots.